arbiterum it didn't cripple performance. it leg pieces of shocks bounce around with min fps drop, a ton more then was possible before it. Mantle degraded visual quality in BF4 last i seen which could be where performance came from. Only ran slow on AMD cards cause AMD was cheap and didn't license it for their cards, who's fault is that?

Oh dear, the ignorance of some people is infinite. How does inclusion of AMD Mantle cripples performance for you NVIDIA users? It doesn't. For you, it doesn't change anything, it's just that AMD users get a performance boost. You just stay at existing D3D level of performance that you already have and have always had. So, how is AMD doing anything to you? It's not affecting you AT ALL. It's just affecting AMD users, in a positive way that is. For you, like it doesn't even exist. See the difference?

Now with PhysX (and many other NVIDIA proprietary stuff), everyone who doesn't have NVIDIA in the PC will run the physics on CPU and we all know that NVIDIA is purposly limiting the efficiency of CPU PhysX to run like crap on non-NVIDIA hardware even though it could run super fast on all the rest of idling CPU cores. Been there and seen that countless times. And then they are showcasing PhysX and what it can do by artificially crippling CPU physics on PhysX exclussive effects so in the end they look like a joke on non-NVIDIA hardware, so much crippled, physics effects look far worse than anyting we've seen 10 years ago being run on CPU. I still can't forget glass shattering bullshit they were selling to us. Go and look for Red Faction 1 glass shattering. And don't forget it's a game from 2001. It was entirely running physics on CPU, yet it looked pretty much the same as PhysX simulated glass today, that requires gigaflops of compute power to calculate 3 friggin glass shards. When you know what it can be done on CPU and has been done a decade before PhysX even existed, don't try to sell me bullshit, because i'll just diss you if you do. And that's why many have ditched NVIDIA because of how they behave with all this.

Now to return back to why i rant about this, AMD doesn't have to artificially cripple anything for Mantle to artificially look better. They don't have to, because Mantle is better by design and they don't have to fake it to make it look better. That's what separates AMD's Mantle from all the crap NVIDIA is selling to everyone and one of the reasons why NVIDIA constantly leaves a very nasty aftertaste. I'm no fanboy, i had a huge share of NVIDIA cards and i loved them, every single one of them. But with attitude they are running business now, i just don't want their junk in my PC.

arbiterSeem to remember all the complants and bitching people had at nvidia over physx, but AMD doing same thing with Mantle and they get a free pass. Reality is Mantle is even worse cause in a system with an nvidia card mantle doesn't work period where as Physx would least work. Mantle is a CLOSED system, don't make the bogus claim that is open source cause you can't download it anywhere or access the API's

What visuals you can have with Mantle you can also have with DirectX11. So Mantle doesn't downgrade the visual experience for an Nvidia user. On the other hand PhysX's visuals are a "NO GO" on AMD hardware. Saying that you can at least run PhysX when not using Nvidia hardware, is a joke to tell you the truth. If you can't realize the difference just go to youtube and see ANY video where "PhysX ON and PhysX OFF" plays side by side.

Also AMD doesn't dictate what hardware to have in your system. It doesn't disable Mantle support if Nvidia hardware is detected.

RCoonBF4 is mantle, and is still horribly broken
Thief is mantle, and is a terrifyingly bad game
Lichdom: Battlemage is mantle, and so far has an equally poor reception in the Early Access scene

Following this
BFHardline(basically 4)
Dragon Age (most likely going to be as terrible as the latest DA was
Plants Vs Zombies... shooter... really?

Add some nuance to that post mate ;)
Thief was not that bad and the previews of Dragon Age: Inquisition are quite positive.

So, the game (gameplay?) in Thief was bad because of Mantle. That's a new one... PhysX for example actually makes gameplay worse for Radeon users because games with it run like a stuck turd in a toilette.

It makes it worst for Radeon users and at the same time it makes it look much better for Nvidia users.
I prefer AMD as a company, but if I had to play again "Alice Madness Returns" or "Borderlands 2" the only choice would have been an Nvidia card. I would refuse to play it without PhysX at high.
That's why I have that GT620 with HD6850. I don't care if it can give me only 30fps at PhysX (not that HD6850 can do more anyway in graphics) but I do care about the PhysX effects because they change very much, in a few at least games, what you see on screen.

GameWorks is shaking in its boots, you show 'em Mantle!!! Quick, time for an NVIDIA PR guy to go on a rant about how unfair AMD is.

john_It makes it worst for Radeon users and at the same time it makes it look much better for Nvidia users.
I prefer AMD as a company, but if I had to play again "Alice Madness Returns" or "Borderlands 2" the only choice would have been an Nvidia card. I would refuse to play it without PhysX at high.
That's why I have that GT620 with HD6850. I don't care if it can give me only 30fps at PhysX (not that HD6850 can do more anyway in graphics) but I do care about the PhysX effects because they change very much, in a few at least games, what you see on screen.

All could be done using Havok physics on CPU. Only things excluded are liquid simulations. But then again, if you've ever played Hydrophobia, you'd be amazed what they've done with water using nothing but CPU. I've never seen such truly dynamic liquid simulation anywhere. Not even with PhysX. With PhysX they just showed few fancy effects here and there, all water in Hydrophobia is based on that simulation. It's not just fancy effect here and there, entire game is based on the water volumetric physics. And even if it's partially faked, it still looks jaw dropping. And can be run on any CPU and graphic card.

Hilux SSRGI fail to understand why Plants vs. Zombies: Garden Warfare would need mantle support. Unless it's to pad your list of games supporting it, AMD should be courting developers that push the gfx envelope.

Frostbite 3 has the Mantle back-end now, so it is very easy to support that in any game. That's all.

RejZoRNVIDIA fanboy much?

Yup sure am.

Just saying, because everyone complaining over AMD Mantle have NVIDIA card in the specs... You'll still have your D3D mode like it has always been there.

RejZoROh dear, the ignorance of some people is infinite. How does inclusion of AMD Mantle cripples performance for you NVIDIA users? It doesn't. For you, it doesn't change anything, it's just that AMD users get a performance boost. You just stay at existing D3D level of performance that you already have and have always had. So, how is AMD doing anything to you? It's not affecting you AT ALL. It's just affecting AMD users, in a positive way that is. For you, like it doesn't even exist. See the difference?

Now with PhysX (and many other NVIDIA proprietary stuff), everyone who doesn't have NVIDIA in the PC will run the physics on CPU and we all know that NVIDIA is purposly limiting the efficiency of CPU PhysX to run like crap on non-NVIDIA hardware even though it could run super fast on all the rest of idling CPU cores. Been there and seen that countless times. And then they are showcasing PhysX and what it can do by artificially crippling CPU physics on PhysX exclussive effects so in the end they look like a joke on non-NVIDIA hardware, so much crippled, physics effects look far worse than anyting we've seen 10 years ago being run on CPU. I still can't forget glass shattering bullshit they were selling to us. Go and look for Red Faction 1 glass shattering. And don't forget it's a game from 2001. It was entirely running physics on CPU, yet it looked pretty much the same as PhysX simulated glass today, that requires gigaflops of compute power to calculate 3 friggin glass shards. When you know what it can be done on CPU and has been done a decade before PhysX even existed, don't try to sell me bullshit, because i'll just diss you if you do. And that's why many have ditched NVIDIA because of how they behave with all this.

Now to return back to why i rant about this, AMD doesn't have to artificially cripple anything for Mantle to artificially look better. They don't have to, because Mantle is better by design and they don't have to fake it to make it look better. That's what separates AMD's Mantle from all the crap NVIDIA is selling to everyone and one of the reasons why NVIDIA constantly leaves a very nasty aftertaste. I'm no fanboy, i had a huge share of NVIDIA cards and i loved them, every single one of them. But with attitude they are running business now, i just don't want their junk in my PC.

You said everything on my mind when talking about Mantle, I 100% agree with you. That is the main reason I have refused to do my normal setup's anymore with an Nvidia GPU (Among other reasons) because I am really getting sick of things designed to hamper performance for other users instead of just benefiting your users or the majority of gamer's playing. I currently run a Hybrid PhysX system from time to time if a game requires physX to be remotely playable (Like Borderlands 2).

Mantle introduced lower level help for GPU's on the AMD side but it does not harm your experience when using an Nvidia GPU. So if anything its just a bonus and nothing more...I am all for tons of AAA games supporting Mantle.

RCoonBF4 is mantle, and is still horribly broken
Thief is mantle, and is a terrifyingly bad game
Lichdom: Battlemage is mantle, and so far has an equally poor reception in the Early Access scene

Following this
BFHardline(basically 4)
Dragon Age (most likely going to be as terrible as the latest DA was
Plants Vs Zombies... shooter... really?

Eh? You lost all credibility in my eyes as soon as you stated DA2 was terrible. Sure, the changes in relation to the first altered it, but in no way, shape, or form was it a bad game. Perhaps an evolution in the wrong direction, but overall not terrible.

On topic, regardless of what people think of AMD, Mantle or EA. This is good for AMD. They need all of the sway that they can get on the market to turn some profit.

FxEh? You lost all credibility in my eyes as soon as you stated DA2 was terrible. Sure, the changes in relation to the first altered it, but in no way, shape, or form was it a bad game. Perhaps an evolution in the wrong direction, but overall not terrible.

On topic, regardless of what people think of AMD, Mantle or EA. This is good for AMD. They need all of the sway that they can get on the market to turn some profit.

I meant origins, unless you liked that more than the original DA ;)

AMD is going promo....not good.

FxEh? You lost all credibility in my eyes as soon as you stated DA2 was terrible. Sure, the changes in relation to the first altered it, but in no way, shape, or form was it a bad game. Perhaps an evolution in the wrong direction, but overall not terrible.

On topic, regardless of what people think of AMD, Mantle or EA. This is good for AMD. They need all of the sway that they can get on the market to turn some profit.

I cant remember many of the differences, but I remember thoroughly enjoying both, and am very excited about the 3rd. I just hope that they dont dumb the game down. The series has provided some of the most challenging boss fights that I have ever played which required me to think of every available resource and tactic at my disposal. Another year or two, and I might even go back and replay them; I hardly ever do that; STALKER being the only exception thus far.

AMD said that Mantle is going to replace OpenGL . Will it?
AMD says that is going to be open Source , we are waiting and hoping.
For now the AMD's OpenGL is poor , You can't use Mantle on non-Windows systems, you are bound to OpenGL.
For me the main use of Mantle is on Linux Systems , AMD is way back in OpenGL versus nVidia.
So if they are going to support Mantle on Linux it will be something amazing, a API for all platform's.


But wait isn't that OpenGL? But AMD claims that Mantle is Faster than OpenGL? is it?
It is faster in comparison with AMD's OpenGL . But we don't know if it's faster vs nVidia OpenGL.

In conclusion, Mantle and openGL are great , but what is greater? we don't know theoretically the should have the same performance.

One thing is sure we need a Graphics API that will be on all platforms and can cut through the driver overhead. Why should games run with DirectX?