aktpuAs I prefer ITX form factor, I don't really like this

Vayra86The 12VHPWR plot thickens... the wires don't though

This is getting comical at this point...
Not looking forward to >350W GPUs tbh

Vayra86The 12VHPWR plot thickens... the wires don't though

This is getting comical at this point...
Not looking forward to >350W GPUs tbh

dj-electricTo give a bit of background before deploying what's probably not gonna be a very popular read, especially among tons of short, mostly dismissive comments:
A part of what I do for a living is design wires and connectivity for compute systems. That means dealing with cables, connectors, PCBs and everything in between.
That also, unfortunately, means dealing with connector companies such as Molex, Samtec, TE, Phoenix and others. There are politics in the retail side of this market.

What the PC power and connectivity market has performed in recent times has been, at best, irresponsible for the longevity of power standards.
We had a crossroads, an opportunity to reinvent ATX and any other power standard in order to improve efficiency, reduce waste and improve performance of power systems in this market. Maybe at this point, its goin to be moot talking about how 24V regulation has matured a ton and we could have used DC-DC components to move ourselves to 24V inputs, save tons of copper, increase energy efficiency and reduce cable clutter.

For a market with such large components such as ATX/MATX boards and gigantic graphics cards, the choice of dense and tiny connectors have been absolutely criminal.
I don't know who in those organizations determined that the use of connectors such as the infamous 12VHPWR was a good idea, but both mechanically and electrically it has been a very bitter choice.

All we really had to do is stick to mini-fit, and just go with a 10pin or at most a 12pin, with half pos half neg pins. That's it. Even at a 10pin config such connector would have been able to provide up to 600W of power at 12V (5 leads at 16AWG for each polarization). The transition between dual 6+2 to this would have been absolutely seamless in terms of lead to lead purpose.

We could have had a good thing going, with properly mechanically secured latches. They had to screw things up with this goofy micro-fit connectors.

Panther_SeraphinWith every increasing power demands can we finally move AWAY from 12V being the standard and moving towards 24/36v as the standard??

Your EPS plugs that are used for CPUS and in the Datacenter on accelerator cards could do nearly 800 watts in 8 Pins.

Just moving to 24V would mean the current 8 pin connector can support 300 watts, hell the PCI-e slot could in theory support 150 watts. In theory it should also increase efficency slightly across the board as well.

aktpuAs I prefer ITX form factor, I don't really like this

TheinsanegamerNBecause you'll still need 12v for CPUs, fans, ece, so you are only introducing more standards that would need new power supplies, motherboards, and additional VRMs added to already expensive components.

bugYou should be thankful you don't (yet) need The Flash to kickstart your GPU, like he "kickstarted" Superman in Justice League :p

Vayra86That applies just the same to GPUs that top the charts by using an immense amount of power; feed that beast and all you get is more of it, with less pressure on arch and tech advancements, because why would they?

TheinsanegamerNBecause you'll still need 12v for CPUs, fans, ece, so you are only introducing more standards that would need new power supplies, motherboards, and additional VRMs added to already expensive components.


This would make more sense in a new form factor altogether, one that uses blade connectors for the PSU as well, much like data center PCS. It eliminates the cable problem altogether.

80251In the industrial fan world, +24V fans are as common as +12V fans and more efficient -- the datasheets indicate less power is used to power a +24V fan than a +12V fan of the same model type, but this seems to be only true for really powerful industrial fans that you would never use in PC unless you were deaf.

Panther_SeraphinIm not just talking for GPUs, Im talking for everything. So everything moves over to 24v. You could design in "compatability" with existing 12V supplies into the newer VRM/voltage controllers similar to how PSUs have active correction for voltages between 100 and 250.

Only have an older 12V supply? It draws double the current up to a set amount. Have a newer supply? Then use things like the sideband connectors in the 12VHPWR or sense capabilities in the regulators.

Hell the current 24 pin ATX connectors has a non used pin that could be a sense/communication pin for that exact purpose as the -5v it was intented for was removed in 2004 from the ATX spec. IMO the AXT12VO was a missed opportunity to move us into the 21st century in this aspect.

MarsM4NWhy fix something that wasn't broken in the first place? :kookoo: The cable wasn't a problem until Nvidia came around the corner with their power hog GPU's big as bricks that didn't fit into PC cases & with the most dumb cable placement where you couldn't close the side panel without bending the cable and causing a short. Not to forget their cheaply engineered 12VHPWR connector. We don't need new connectors, we need companies to not adopt Nvidia's nonsense.

I already know what's going to happen if they bring on this connector. Brick like GPU's will sag, which will reduce pin contact & you'll end up with a 12VHPWR "Adapter Gate" 2.0 with PC's catching fire. :) Plus it will not only toast your GPU & connector, it will toast your motherboard, too. Maybe that's their goal?

TheinsanegamerNso, your suggestion to the cost issue is to design transformers into motherboards to step up voltage from 12v to 24v? Do you know how expensive/ space consuming that would be?

dj-electricStaying with mini-fit would actually save money. It was decided costs would increase when picking the new 12VHPWR connector.

bugIt would still mean additional traces or layers on the motherboard, driving prices further up :( Possibly additional VRMs, too.
But neat from an install point of view.

N/AI want Mega fit to power a 4090 with 4pins connector. but my next SFX-L psu has only microfit on it.

Vayra86the wires don't though

WirkoThis is a great opportunitly for a transition to a higher voltage (or rather, a non-fixed voltage). It's now or never. But obviously it's going to be wasted.

TheinsanegamerNBecause you'll still need 12v for CPUs, fans, ece, so you are only introducing more standards that would need new power supplies, motherboards, and additional VRMs added to already expensive components.


This would make more sense in a new form factor altogether, one that uses blade connectors for the PSU as well, much like data center PCS. It eliminates the cable problem altogether.

Panther_SeraphinIm not just talking for GPUs, Im talking for everything. So everything moves over to 24v. You could design in "compatability" with existing 12V supplies into the newer VRM/voltage controllers similar to how PSUs have active correction for voltages between 100 and 250.

Only have an older 12V supply? It draws double the current up to a set amount. Have a newer supply? Then use things like the sideband connectors in the 12VHPWR or sense capabilities in the regulators.

Hell the current 24 pin ATX connectors has a non used pin that could be a sense/communication pin for that exact purpose as the -5v it was intented for was removed in 2004 from the ATX spec. IMO the AXT12VO was a missed opportunity to move us into the 21st century in this aspect.

80251In the industrial fan world, +24V fans are as common as +12V fans and more efficient -- the datasheets indicate less power is used to power a +24V fan than a +12V fan of the same model type, but this seems to be only true for really powerful industrial fans that you would never use in PC unless you were deaf.

TheinsanegamerNWe are not building industrial PCs. We are building consumer PCs. Why not move to 120v equipment, since that is also used in industrial applications?


so, your suggestion to the cost issue is to design transformers into motherboards to step up voltage from 12v to 24v? Do you know how expensive/ space consuming that would be?

Absolute genius! :slap:

Also, hilariously you mention the "21st century" while ignoring that the 24 pin ATX connector is a 21st century occurrence. 1990s machines had either the old 6+6 pin or the 20 pin connector.

80251I see what TheinsanegamerN is saying, it would have to be a whole new standard to use +24V power. Supposedly switching VRM's are more efficient the higher the voltage differential between source and output and power losses due to i^2*R losses would less at +24V than +12V so maybe it would be better to settle on a newer, higher voltage standard, maybe even higher than +24V. I believe Noctua, Nidec, Delta, Sunon, SanAce already make +24V, PWM speed-controlled fans. At higher voltage you might be able to get away w/less leads too (since the current will be less), so maybe the 24-pin power connector could go back to being 20-pin and the 8-pin supplemental power connector could go back to being a 4-pin.

Panther_SeraphinNo. Im saying we design the boards slightly different and source slightly different power stages etc.....

You do realise a LOT of the stuff we have out there is actually fairly wide ranging in terms of voltage input?

AOZ5311NQI-03 - Currently a favoured power stage in 4xxx series GPUs
AOZ5616BQI - A possible drop in replacement to be able to utilise a 24v source.

Same Output ratings, same packaging. PWM signals would have to be reworked from 5V currently to 3V. Which may actually simplify circuitry as there is no 5V source for Graphics cards directly from Mobo or cable currently.

Guess what, both of those above power stages accepts 12 Volts. Only the bottom one would support 24. So its there, just needs a little work from the PSU. Mobo, graphics makers etc etc etc to come to an agreement on a standard to enable a transition from 12V currently to 24V in the future. Maybe the use of sideband connectors on top of existing ones would be viable similar to what Nvidia did in the power delivery of the 4xxx series. No sideband connectors means the board expects 12V, sideband connectors can then be used to confirm voltage supplied from PSU is 24V.