dgianstefaniThe AMD melting chips/socket issue a while back was something you could actually blame on AMD, because it was their AGESA/EXPO algorithms that were causing the overvolting.

Nice try.

In reality, both AMD and Intel have a lot of collaboration with the motherboard companies. Very little is solely the fault of one or the other. Both this problem and the AMD problem are both solvable by BIOS updates and/or BIOS setting changes. Only brand loyalists try to deflect blame when in most instances the largest companies will try to place blame on the littlest companies if possible.

Voodoo RufusI'm definitely going to flash to the newest BIOS this evening and check the CPU power settings. My errors are black screen crashes necessitating a hard reboot.

The latest BIOS includes "...Further optimized CEP settings when disabled". It might be worth setting IA CEP to Disabled and seeing if that helps.

Doesn't surprise me at all since they're basically factory-overclocked to their maximum and Intel themselves have said that 100C temps are totally normal.

DavenNow AMD is having platform issues with its CPUs and games. And they just recently had GPU driver crashes in a gaming tournament.

www.techpowerup.com/320977/pgl-investigating-geforce-rtx-4080-gpu-driver-crash-following-esports-event-disruption?amp

Why would anyone buy AMD with so many problems? An Intel-Nvidia platform is much more stable.

I don't want my PC to be an unstable heater with a fire hazard power connector.

No issues with my 13600KF since I upgraded 10 months ago, but I have E-cores disabled and I have a 125 W power limit (which can only be reached with Prime95, games never even get close to 100 W).

I've seen streamers have problems with the 14900K, especially in UE5 games. But those CPUs are completely ridiculous for gaming, especially with default BIOS settings which usually have some crazy things enabled.

Well, it's easy to pin the blame on motherboard manufacturers and rightfully so most of the time. Problem here is that these 'not stock' settings on intel platforms are extremely prevalent and intel hasn't done anything to stop this. In fact, many reviewers also use these non stock settings in their reviews. So it's a case at times where an unstable (or heavily degrading) Intel CPU is being compared against a stable AMD one simply because it's not done on the AMD camp anymore. Lazy motherboard manufacturers pumping stupid volts to get their EXPO settings stable is a thing of the past, thankfully.

Also, for the AMD CPU deaths in the past, you had to enable expo manually in the BIOS for the issue to occur. But on Intel it's the opposite, you pretty much have to change BIOS settings to revert to stock on Intel CPU's. for the issue to not occur That really shouldn't be the case and I wonder how many CPU's were affected by this degradation. I know a friend whose 13900K is having stability issues all of a sudden after a year or so, and he's been using 'stock' ASUS motherboard settings. Absolutely unacceptable, and I wonder why this hasn't been caught by Intel after what, 18 months? Aren't they supposed to be testing the CPU's over time along with the motherboard manufacturers? Maybe if they focused less on extracting 200mhz for 150W more power they'd have figured it out by now.

I feel like we're going through that phase again where both cpu and gpu vendors are pushing the limits a bit too hard. Well, not AMD cpus, but their power is also creeping up again iirc. Sometimes I think my next PC should be a 95W cpu + sub 200W gpu, performance be d4mned.

DavenNice try.

In reality, both AMD and Intel have a lot of collaboration with the motherboard companies. Very little is solely the fault of one or the other. Both this problem and the AMD problem are both solvable by BIOS updates and/or BIOS setting changes. Only brand loyalists try to deflect blame when in most instances the largest companies will try to place blame on the littlest companies if possible.

While what you said is true, AMD is still exclusively responsible for AGESA and all of its bugs, no motherboard manufacturer has any involvement in that. So yes, the CPUs burning up, the screwed up memory training, all of that is only on AMD and no one else.

xorbeI feel like we're going through that phase again where both cpu and gpu vendors are pushing the limits a bit too hard. Well, not AMD cpus, but their power is also creeping up again iirc. Sometimes I think my next PC should be a 95W cpu + sub 200W gpu, performance be d4mned.

This is my new strategy. In games I'm averaging ~50 W on the 13600KF and ~130 W on the undervolted 4070. And I play at a capped 4K60 (usually with upscaling), so utilization is almost never maxed out.

And I don't buy games at launch anymore. They run much better after a few months worth of patches, and you get a nice discount. If a game is too heavy for my config, I'll play it after the next upgrade.

Dr. DroWhile what you said is true, AMD is still exclusively responsible for AGESA and all of its bugs, no motherboard manufacturer has any involvement in that. So yes, the CPUs burning up, the screwed up memory training, all of that is only on AMD and no one else.

AMD at least have finally set hard limits for motherboard auto overclocking after the x3d chips started getting killed by the same overvoltage bs motherboard manufacturers have done to both Intel and AMD, they have done it for decades, MCE, fsb overclocking, etc.

The main difference is that its all enabled by default on intel boards, with AMD you need to enable it.

"motherboard makers often run the CPU outside of Intel's default spec,"

default should = to specification

If they can't do this and/or don't do this, they should not be in the motherboard business.

Neither of my i9's have these issues.

My 14900K is locked to intel limits though, Asus default settings were insane.
My 13900HX of course is low power being in a laptop.

Both are rock solid stable.

Have to wait and see once I upgrade to i7 14700K on my Z690 Aorus Master..
I mean ..I've got the VRM's but.. Wait and see..

I was having random hard locks and resets when I first put my intel system together. Though I am currently using a Beta BIOS from MSI and have locked in the stock limits as specified by Intel. I haven't had any issues really since. Been about 2 months now. I get the occasional hard lock due to Nvidia Driver failure when certain video playback is occurring (Discord Streaming and some embedded videos on web pages).

I researched this quite a bit and found a post on Reddit talking about it and then a video by De8auer who talked about this issue too.

I would highly recommend folks manually set the stock limits for their respective processors and give it a go. For the longest time, I thought it was my RAM but nope, it was the CPU and voltages/currents that the motherboard was trying to force.

dgianstefaniSimply not true though.

That does not explain away the reason why these mobo's are pushing the limits. Intel's best current process is a power hog. That is the design fault.

P4-630Have to wait and see once I upgrade to i7 14700K on my Z690 Aorus Master..
I mean ..I've got the VRM's but.. Wait and see..

Make sure you update the BIOS beforehand. The older microcodes will try to initialize 4 e-core clusters on the 14700K, and this will fail as only 3 are enabled in the chip.

Dr. DroMake sure you update the BIOS beforehand. The older microcodes will try to initialize 4 e-core clusters on the 14700K, and this will fail as only 3 are enabled in the chip.

I'm on the latest BIOS. Thanks.

dgianstefaniTbh it's past time for the CPU makers to have some words with the motherboard makers regarding this.

Time to put motherboard makers on leash was when Shitsus started to blow up X3D chips and the fact that even after that saga neither AMD nor Intel have talked with them is quite concerning.

Nobody is putting anybody "on the leash".

Reviewers, and consumers, award motherboard makers for even a fraction faster performance - but we know it's just an out of spec setting, a factory overclock. Do you have instabilities, or has your PC just died because of that? That's the part of being in PC Glorious Master Race - you gambled with a cutting edge, and got cut.

The fact is that Intel for several generations now advertises one set of settings when they talk about efficiency, but quite another when they talk about performance. Some reviewers have even gone so far that they hid they used different motherboard settings for different measurements - and later claimed they didn't have to disclose that, because they are all "stock" - some are stock Intel recommended settings, other are stock settings motherboards set as default.

Intel of course knows and validates all the overclock that's going on. And when motherboard vendors finally go too far, they can always wash their hands, point out to them, and claim... Ignorance? Amnesia?

It's nice to have your cake and eat it too, to claim efficient CPUs that barely sip electricity, and on the other hand to claim performance crown (in select areas we proclaim are the only ones relevant), even for the sake of making extremely hot, extremely power hungry products that are destroying themselves in their default settings - "It wasn't our setting!"

It's interesting who's to blame when you see something like this:

RTX 4090s continue to melt — GPU repair facility claims it works on 200 flagship Nvidia cards per month | Tom's Hardware (tomshardware.com)

In saying that, we don't know which GPU's are having issues with these so-called Intel CPU's but you would think if people have the money for i9's they prob have 4090 as well.

Outback BronzeIt's interesting who's to blame when you see something like this:

RTX 4090s continue to melt — GPU repair facility claims it works on 200 flagship Nvidia cards per month | Tom's Hardware (tomshardware.com)

In saying that, we don't know which GPU's are having issues with these so-called Intel CPU's but you would think if people have the money for i9's they prob have 4090 as well.

My pal with 4080S + 14900K used to get crashes every 5 mins in Helldivers 2, until he undervolted his 14900K.

Meanwhile my undervolted 13700K + 4090 (with original 12VHPWR connector) are much more stable, though I had to lower CPU clock by 100mhz (5.4ghz P-Cores instead of 5.5ghz) because HD2 utilize the CPU much more heavily than any other game.

dgianstefaniNor are people who manually set voltages, even those who are overclocking past stock.

Yeah, never had an issue, just gota know how to not cook your CPU but it helps when you've been OCing for 20 years and know what parameters in the bios to manipulate.

nguyenMy pal with 4080S + 14900K used to get crashes every 5 mins in Helldivers 2, until he undervolted his 14900K.

Meanwhile my undervolted 13700K + 4090 (with original 12VHPWR connector) are much more stable, though I had to lower CPU clock by 100mhz (5.4ghz P-Cores instead of 5.5ghz) because HD2 utilize the CPU much more heavily than any other game.

Im not saying Intel is not to blame here but it could be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Outback BronzeIm not saying Intel is not to blame here but it could be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Well the 4080/4090 are pushing CPU harder than any other GPU, that's for sure

ChaitanyaTime to put motherboard makers on leash was when Shitsus started to blow up X3D chips and the fact that even after that saga neither AMD nor Intel have talked with them is quite concerning.

Add AssRack(they burn non 3d cpu's) and MSI(they blame amd for any bios issues) to the list too.

nguyenBTW my friend who is a distributor for Intel has been saying he had to take in lots of RMA for Intel 14th gen, so the article is actually very legit

What we need is information like this, but with actual data.
There are always some failures with mass-produced electronics, but real statistics tells us whether there is a widespread defect/design flaw, or if this is just noise from a few people shouting very loudly.
Most of us probably remember the RTX 2080 Ti debacle, which eventually turned out to be tied to EVGA's designs, and excluding these left them with completely normal failure rates. But people still remember it as a Nvidia issue, when in this specific case it was an AiB vendor issue.

I would very much like to see statistics (even if it's just relative numbers) of how many CPUs are RMAed, and of these, how many are have been running completely stock (incl. memory) and are still confirmed to be defective. If the resulting figure is anywhere close to 1% (with a good sample size), then there is certainly a hardware issue. Also, if proven true, it will be interesting whether the resulting bad chips are tied to the same batches, or if it's evenly spread across everything (a widespread quality issue or design flaw).

Voodoo RufusI wonder if this is the cause of my issues lately (13900KS / 3080Ti). I did a BIOS update a couple months ago, and haven't been able to run any games since. Some crash right when 3D is activated, others completely at random, but never more than 5 minutes from 3D load start.

If upgrading or downgrading your BIOS doesn't resolve the issue, and you run everything within Intel's power limits and your memory at stock JEDEC speeds, and the problem is still as reproducible as you portrait it, then I would ask if either you (or someone in the same situation) would be willing to try installing a Linux distro like Ubuntu on a separate drive, just for testing purposes. Because if you do, then reproducing the same error on a completely different software stack will eliminate the software and lead you to the conclusion you have defective hardware (in which case you should RMA it). But this is only if you feel comfortable with this.

Knight47Add AssRack(they burn non 3d cpu's) and MSI(they blame amd for any bios issues) to the list too.

I think there is an overall lack of quality in motherboards. Even expensive "gaming" motherboards from Asus aren't always as stable or compatible as we would expect, so I stay away from those. But I'm not a fan of the dynamic boosting from both CPU vendors either, as I fear they are pushing the limits too far.

efikkanWhat we need is information like this, but with actual data.
There are always some failures with mass-produced electronics, but real statistics tells us whether there is a widespread defect/design flaw, or if this is just noise from a few people shouting very loudly.
Most of us probably remember the RTX 2080 Ti debacle, which eventually turned out to be tied to EVGA's designs, and excluding these left them with completely normal failure rates. But people still remember it as a Nvidia issue, when in this specific case it was an AiB vendor issue.

I would very much like to see statistics (even if it's just relative numbers) of how many CPUs are RMAed, and of these, how many are have been running completely stock (incl. memory) and are still confirmed to be defective. If the resulting figure is anywhere close to 1% (with a good sample size), then there is certainly a hardware issue. Also, if proven true, it will be interesting whether the resulting bad chips are tied to the same batches, or if it's evenly spread across everything (a widespread quality issue or design flaw).

I completely agree. This is a statistical problem.

I get the impression that this issue is related to the amount of operating margin that the 13th and 14th gen chips have been engineered with, relative to the 12th gen. They all run on the same motherboards to date and I have not heard anything like this for the 12th gen. So whatever motherboard "boost" or "OC" that applies to all 12th to 14th gen chips eats away the safety margin in the 13th and 14th, but not the 12th, because it has a bigger physical safety margin.