Monday, August 18th 2008

NVIDIA Demonstrates Real-time Interactive Ray-tracing

Ray-tracing is the buzzword with consumer and professional graphics these days. It's a technique with which accurate representation of light with its behaviour in adherence with the laws of physics can be done when generating 3D computer graphics.

NVIDIA took ray-tracing to an interactive level with its work on an interactive real-time ray-tracing application. Currently NVIDIA has a larger stash of intellectual property in the field of ray-tracing than other players such as AMD or Intel, with the acquisition of MentalRay, a company that is pretty-much a standard in Hollywood.
At the Siggraph 2008 event, NVIDIA demonstrated a fully interactive GPU-based ray-tracer, which featured real-time ray-tracing in 30 frames/second (fps) and a resolution of 1920 x 1080 pixels. The demo saw NVIDIA flex its muscle with using almost every element in ray-tracing for which technology has been developed so far, namely a two-million polygon demo, an image-based paint shader, ray traced shadows, reflections and refractions.

To maintain those 30 fps at a high display resolution, NVIDIA used four Quadro FX 5800 graphics cards working in tandem. These next-gen Quadro boards are based on GT200(b) GPUs, come with 240 shader processors and 4 GB of GDDR3 memory (for a total of 960 shaders and 16 GB of GDDR3 memory).

Source: TG Daily
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93 Comments on NVIDIA Demonstrates Real-time Interactive Ray-tracing

#1
rflair
@ GSG-9

What I was saying from my first post was that there is a reason the Nvidia ray trace demo use an all grey environment, its easier to calculate just one color and its gradient shades being reflected, after all the only thing showcasing ray tracing is the car itself, the environment is not showing any and in one of the pics where the car appears to be near the glass of the building ray tracing should be happening to the glass.

Nvidia's ray tracing demo isn't truly environmental it specific to the car.

Ati's demo is just a better demo of ray tracing, the environment and all objects have ray tracing, plus color and nice textures.
Posted on Reply
#2
Valdez
PCpraiser100 said:
My friend's dad who works for AMD told me on the phone last night that the basic components used to play/develop the Cinema 2.0 demo was the V5700 on a 9950 BE Phenom with 4GB of DDR2 RAM, no OC was in the process. I see a more compatible approach compared to enough computer workstation power to diagnose a space station...
Lol, you say this demo was presented on two 128-bit hd3800 (codenamed rv670)? :twitch:



Sorry, v5700 based on rv730, not rv670. Anyway its less powerful than a hd3850/3870.
Posted on Reply
#3
DarkMatter
rflair said:
@ GSG-9

What I was saying from my first post was that there is a reason the Nvidia ray trace demo use an all grey environment, its easier to calculate just one color and its gradient shades being reflected, after all the only thing showcasing ray tracing is the car itself, the environment is not showing any and in one of the pics where the car appears to be near the glass of the building ray tracing should be happening to the glass.

Nvidia's ray tracing demo isn't truly environmental it specific to the car.

Ati's demo is just a better demo of ray tracing, the environment and all objects have ray tracing, plus color and nice textures.
FALSE and IT DOES.

http://www.techreport.com/image.x/2008_8_14_Nvidia_demos_realtime_raytracing_at_Siggraph/NVIDIA_RT_demo1.jpg

Not only that, but if you look enough on the image you will see that the building is reflected in the reflection of the card being reflected in the building glass. That is at least 3 bounces. And that's another thing we don't know and we shouldn't be talking about performance without that data. Nvidia could be calculating up to 10 bounces while Ati only one or two. The thing is we don't know a shit...

All that I can say is search a bit, learn a bit.
Posted on Reply
#4
rflair
DarkMatter said:
Give up guys. If they can't understand my last post, they will not understand why it doesn't matter that the Ati one looks better.




*It doesn't matter if that texture is a beatiful high detailed one or a completely grey one. In both cases the operation "LOAD_TEX (x,y)" or whatever the name it has, DOES occur. The "performance hit" is the same in both cases. Understand this for once before continuing with the nonsense and the acusations FFS.
So what you are saying is that a true environment which has multiple colors and light being refracted from many angles and effecting the surfaces it ends up on is the same as flat grey objects doing the same?
Posted on Reply
#5
rflair
DarkMatter said:
FALSE and IT DOES.

http://www.techreport.com/image.x/2008_8_14_Nvidia_demos_realtime_raytracing_at_Siggraph/NVIDIA_RT_demo1.jpg

Not only that, but if you look enough on the image you will see that the building is reflected in the reflection of the card being reflected in the building glass. That is at least 3 bounces. And that's another thing we don't know and we shouldn't be talking about performance without that data. Nvidia could be calculating up to 10 bounces while Ati only one or two. The thing is we don't know a shit...

All that I can say is search a bit, learn a bit.
Dang never saw that pic, much better view and perspective of what is happening.

Yes and you are right, we don't know enough about either demo.
Posted on Reply
#6
DarkMatter
rflair said:
So what you are saying is that a true environment which has multiple colors and light being refracted from many angles and effecting the surfaces it ends up on is the same as flat grey objects doing the same?
Indeed. And not only that, but ray-tracing reflection/refraction tests occur on all surfaces and not only on reflective ones. Ray-tracing is a physically correct rendering method. This means it calculates the incidence of light on the surfaces and based on the reflection/refraction indexes it will reflect/refract or not. Not reflective surfaces don't reflect light because it's reflection index is 0, but the same calculation does occur as if it was reflective. The only difference is that the ray won't continue bouncing (won't be reflected) nor it will be splitted, as would be the case on a reflective AND refractive surface, such as glass.

:o Splitted does not exist is just split isn't it? :o:o:o:o
Posted on Reply
#7
rflair
DarkMatter said:
Indeed. And not only that, but ray-tracing reflection/refraction tests occur on all surfaces and not only on reflective ones. Ray-tracing is a physically correct rendering method. This means it calculates the incidence of light on the surfaces and based on the reflection/refraction indexes it will reflect/refract or not. Not reflective surfaces don't reflect light because it's reflection index is 0, but the same calculation does occur as if it was reflective. The only difference is that the ray won't continue bouncing (won't be reflected) nor it will be splitted, as would be the case on a reflective AND refractive surface, such as glass.
Thanks, what you are saying puts everything into perspective and you explained it well.
Posted on Reply
#8
PCpraiser100
DarkMatter said:
Give up guys. If they can't understand my last post, they will not understand why it doesn't matter that the Ati one looks better.



Don't want to insult you, but this just shows your limited knowlegde. For the 2 billio0nth time, this is a tech demo. Ray-tracing in a glance does this: find a surface (polygon), calculate the amount of light reflected/refracted, extract* the color of that position in the poly, move on to the next surface.

*It doesn't matter if that texture is a beatiful high detailed one or a completely grey one. In both cases the operation "LOAD_TEX (x,y)" or whatever the name it has, DOES occur. The "performance hit" is the same in both cases. Understand this for once before continuing with the nonsense and the acusations FFS.

Another thing to consider BEFORE talking about the hardware used is that this demo was at 1920x1200 while the other one was on 720p. And forget about resolution scalability of raster renderers, ray-tracing is 100% dependant on resolution. You can't compare both demos because they are very different, and both are as impressive. In a manner, this one is even more impressive, as I remember reading that Ati couldn't achieve such high resolutions no matter how much hardware they used.

And finally, YES, Ati hardware NOW is a lot better suited for ray-tracing becuse it has tons of shaders and a tesselator. Yet it can't do ray-tracing on a level it would be useful for games. This is a ray-tracing demo, not a demo to see which hardware can run it. Whenever the renderer software is prepared, hardware capable of running it will be released. Or do you honestly believe Nvidia is stupid or that they can't put as many shaders as Ati on one chip? When ray-tracing is mature enough Ati, Intel and Nvidia will all have their capable hardware, don't worry.
Whoa ok ok, but I do agree this is a tech demo. Its just that the shaders could be too complex for the consumers and stuff, who knows how long will the hardware finally catch up. Nvidia was demonstrating ray-tracing, and thats what they did, but the ridiculously expensive setup was running the tech demo at 30fps, its too demanding. Cinema 2.0 on the other has all those physics and stuff to deal with and the requirements don't really seem like a problem, especially when the video looked like it was running at probably 60-80 fps. BTW, insult taken. I'm not really a developer, I'm just a gamer who loves researching hardware every morning/night. However, my friends are mostly friends with developers. Oh and it is running at 1920x1080p, just got off the phone. My friend told me that he got the demo version of Cinema 2.0 a week ago, which had the system requirements on the disk. The setup that I told you were the recommended system requirements not the minimum. The minimum is Athlon X2 5000+, 3GB of RAM, and an HD 3650.
Posted on Reply
#9
DarkMatter
rflair said:
Thanks, what you are saying puts everything into perspective and you explained it well.
Thanks. And sorry if I was rude at first. I sometimes (maybe always, sadly :() forget that people may lack the knowledge on something because no one cared to teach them. I learnt the lesson, I'll try to be more patient next time. I don't promise anything though. :p

@PCpraiser100

I don't know if things have change with the time and they have improved on that front or not. But the demo they made public was on 720p, I'm sure about that. As well as one of the representatives saying they couldn't achieve higher resolutions at the moment.
Posted on Reply
#10
PCpraiser100
DarkMatter said:
Thanks. And sorry if I was rude at first. I sometimes (maybe always, sadly :() forget that people may lack the knowledge on something because no one cared to teach them. I learnt the lesson, I'll try to be more patient next time. I don't promise anything though. :p

@PCpraiser100

I don't know if things have change with the time and they have improved on that front or not. But the demo they made public was on 720p, I'm sure about that. As well as one of the representatives saying they couldn't achieve higher resolutions at the moment.
Dude, its alright. I;m probably a bit more hardwired to AMD. BTW my friend is creating sweet videos and screenshots with the demo of Cinema 2.0, he is even thinking about visually reediting half-life 2 images with DX10.1 images instead, just for fun. its really cool, after all, Gordon's HEV suit really needs more bling lol.
Posted on Reply
#11
DarkMatter
Sweet! And when are we going to see them? :)
Posted on Reply
#12
GSG-9
Im glad I went to sleep that could have gotten nasty if I was around. Im still only on 6 hours of sleep though. Almost work time. :wtf:

PCpraiser100 said:
Dude, its alright. I;m probably a bit more hardwired to AMD. BTW my friend is creating sweet videos and screenshots with the demo of Cinema 2.0, he is even thinking about visually reediting half-life 2 images with DX10.1 images instead, just for fun. its really cool, after all, Gordon's HEV suit really needs more bling lol.
Im confused, he is taking the models from Half life and putting them in this other engine? (Like videos done in 3dsmax except cinema 2.0 and hence real time?)
Posted on Reply
#13
PCpraiser100
GSG-9 said:
Im glad I went to sleep that could have gotten nasty if I was around. Im still only on 6 hours of sleep though. Almost work time. :wtf:



Im confused, he is taking the models from Half life and putting them in this other engine? (Like videos done in 3dsmax except cinema 2.0 and hence real time?)
He is not really putting Half-Life in another engine, he is just modifying the shaders. Anyway, I can't really talk much about it or else people will be lining up for me and my friend so run along home lol. As for seeing screenshots in stuff he can't show me it under certain conditions from AMD. Or else :nutkick:
Posted on Reply
#14
GSG-9
PCpraiser100 said:
He is not really putting Half-Life in another engine, he is just modifying the shaders. Anyway, I can't really talk much about it or else people will be lining up for me and my friend so run along home lol. As for seeing screenshots in stuff he can't show me it under certain conditions from AMD. Or else :nutkick:
That would be something interesting to have access to. Looking for word to more info.
Posted on Reply
#15
PCpraiser100
GSG-9 said:
That would be something interesting to have access to. Looking for word to more info.
Either way, we all know what companies are like when it comes to unveiling something that is expectd to be awesome. They make it better. With that in mind, only time will tell by how often will this software be used. Moving on to Ray-Tracing plz.
Posted on Reply
#16
PrudentPrincess
Phew I'm glad this thread calmed down if you kept going on arguing and calling eachother names the thread would probably be closed and infractions would be handed out. (If they haven't already :laugh:)
Posted on Reply
#17
zithe
The lighting is very nice. I want to see this in games. :D
Posted on Reply
#18
GSG-9
PrudentPrincess said:
Phew I'm glad this thread calmed down if you kept going on arguing and calling eachother names the thread would probably be closed and infractions would be handed out. (If they haven't already :laugh:)
I think we had some leeway left ;), Remember the thread on Religion Islam and Candle Which spawned out of of thread on Iraq? As long as its contained and stays on topic..
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