• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

Intel Core i9-9900K De-lidded, Soldered TIM Outperformed by Liquid Metal

VSG

Editor, Reviews & News
Staff member
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
3,450 (0.97/day)
We kept seeing hints regarding Intel's 9000-series processors running hot, including from their own board partners. As it turned out, the actual results are a mixed bag with some running very hot and most others ending up being power-limited more so than temperature-limited. Our own review sample showed overall better load temperatures relative to the predecessor 8000-series processors thanks to the soldered TIM (sTIM) used here, to give you some context. But that did not stop overclocker extraordinaire Roman "Der8auer" Hartung from de-lidding the processor to see why they were not generally better as expected.

As it turns out, there are a few things involved here. For one, replacing sTIM with Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut (Der8auer has a financial interest in the company, but he does disclose it publicly) alone improves p95 average load temperatures across all eight cores by ~9 °C. This is to be expected given that the liquid metal has a vastly higher thermal conductivity than the various sTIM compositions used in the industry. Of more interest, however, is that both the PCB and the die are thicker with the Core i9-9900K compared to the Core i7-8700K, and lapping the die to reduce thickness by a few microns also does a lot to lower the CPU temperatures relatively. Overall, Intel have still done a good job using sTIM- especially compared to how it was before- but the current state of things means that we have a slightly better stock product with little scope for improvement within easy means to the consumer.


View at TechPowerUp Main Site
 

hat

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 20, 2006
Messages
21,731 (3.43/day)
Location
Ohio
System Name Starlifter :: Dragonfly
Processor i7 2600k 4.4GHz :: i5 10400
Motherboard ASUS P8P67 Pro :: ASUS Prime H570-Plus
Cooling Cryorig M9 :: Stock
Memory 4x4GB DDR3 2133 :: 2x8GB DDR4 2400
Video Card(s) PNY GTX1070 :: Integrated UHD 630
Storage Crucial MX500 1TB, 2x1TB Seagate RAID 0 :: Mushkin Enhanced 60GB SSD, 3x4TB Seagate HDD RAID5
Display(s) Onn 165hz 1080p :: Acer 1080p
Case Antec SOHO 1030B :: Old White Full Tower
Audio Device(s) Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro - Bose Companion 2 Series III :: None
Power Supply FSP Hydro GE 550w :: EVGA Supernova 550
Software Windows 10 Pro - Plex Server on Dragonfly
Benchmark Scores >9000
Intel forgot how to solder?
 

Chloefile

S.T.A.R.S.
Joined
Dec 16, 2012
Messages
10,878 (2.64/day)
Location
Finland
System Name 4K-gaming
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X
Motherboard Gigabyte B550M Aorus Elite
Cooling Custom loop (CPU+GPU, 240 & 120 rads)
Memory 32GB Kingston HyperX Fury @ DDR4-3466
Video Card(s) PowerColor RX 6700 XT Fighter
Storage ~4TB SSD + 6TB HDD
Display(s) Acer 27" 4K120 IPS + Lenovo 32" 4K60 IPS
Case Fractal Design Define Mini C
Audio Device(s) Asus TUF H3 Wireless
Power Supply EVGA Supernova G2 750W
Mouse Logitech MX518 Legendary
Keyboard Roccat Vulcan 121 AIMO
VR HMD Oculus Rift CV1
Software Windows 11 Pro
Benchmark Scores It runs Crysis remastered at 4K
Intel forgot how to solder?
It's because the die is thicker if I understand it right. The die logic is on bottom of the die, and thicker die makes it harder to transfer the heat away.
 
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
20,714 (3.41/day)
System Name Pioneer
Processor Ryzen R9 7950X
Motherboard GIGABYTE Aorus Elite X670 AX
Cooling Noctua NH-D15 + A whole lotta Sunon and Corsair Maglev blower fans...
Memory 64GB (4x 16GB) G.Skill Flare X5 @ DDR5-6000 CL30
Video Card(s) XFX RX 7900 XTX Speedster Merc 310
Storage 2x Crucial P5 Plus 2TB PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSDs
Display(s) 55" LG 55" B9 OLED 4K Display
Case Thermaltake Core X31
Audio Device(s) TOSLINK->Schiit Modi MB->Asgard 2 DAC Amp->AKG Pro K712 Headphones or HDMI->B9 OLED
Power Supply FSP Hydro Ti Pro 850W
Mouse Logitech G305 Lightspeed Wireless
Keyboard WASD Code v3 with Cherry Green keyswitches
Software Windows 11 Enterprise (legit), Gentoo Linux x64
Intel forgot how to solder?

More like liquid metal always has outperformed solder, if only marginally.

They do appear to be having more quality control issues than I would like though...
 
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
4,883 (0.76/day)
Location
Hong Kong
Processor Core i7-12700k
Motherboard Z690 Aero G D4
Cooling Custom loop water, 3x 420 Rad
Video Card(s) RX 7900 XTX Phantom Gaming
Storage Plextor M10P 2TB
Display(s) InnoCN 27M2V
Case Thermaltake Level 20 XT
Audio Device(s) Soundblaster AE-5 Plus
Power Supply FSP Aurum PT 1200W
Software Windows 11 Pro 64-bit
More like liquid metal always has outperformed solder, if only marginally.

They do appear to be having more quality control issues than I would like though...
Thus all the BS about how solder is natually bad because micro-fractures etc.
Looks like there might already be air gaps in the solder in the first place.
 
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
3,881 (0.89/day)
It's because the die is thicker if I understand it right. The die logic is on bottom of the die, and thicker die makes it harder to transfer the heat away.

Intel try'n to be Thicc

Roman is just body die shaming. -6c just by liposuction (0.2mm). -14c in total
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 15, 2016
Messages
1,042 (0.37/day)
Location
Pristina
System Name My PC
Processor 4670K@4.4GHz
Motherboard Gryphon Z87
Cooling CM 212
Memory 2x8GB+2x4GB @2400GHz
Video Card(s) XFX Radeon RX 580 GTS Black Edition 1425MHz OC+, 8GB
Storage Intel 530 SSD 480GB + Intel 510 SSD 120GB + 2x500GB hdd raid 1
Display(s) HP envy 32 1440p
Case CM Mastercase 5
Audio Device(s) Sbz ZXR
Power Supply Antec 620W
Mouse G502
Keyboard G910
Software Win 10 pro
Let me guess, you tried prime with avx instruction which is unrealistic so this nonsense with liquid tim is total waste of time except for milking people to do delid and -9C is marginal -15-20C would be acceptable so yeah.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ppn
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
4,883 (0.76/day)
Location
Hong Kong
Processor Core i7-12700k
Motherboard Z690 Aero G D4
Cooling Custom loop water, 3x 420 Rad
Video Card(s) RX 7900 XTX Phantom Gaming
Storage Plextor M10P 2TB
Display(s) InnoCN 27M2V
Case Thermaltake Level 20 XT
Audio Device(s) Soundblaster AE-5 Plus
Power Supply FSP Aurum PT 1200W
Software Windows 11 Pro 64-bit
Let me guess, you tried prime with avx instruction which is unrealistic so this nonsense with liquid tim is total waste of time except for milking people to do delid and -9C is marginal -15-20C would be acceptable so yeah.
The thing is Intel themselves is the ones pushing hard on AVX instructions because it is fastest on their own chips.
So Intel definitely intends their chips to be able to run AVX instructions.
 

ppn

Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Messages
1,231 (0.39/day)
Only need to lap the die or and delid for chasing record scores. For everyday use and resale value is counter productive to destroy the cpu. Now Up to 0.5mm is dummy layer. 178mm2 die area 37Mtr/mm2 so expect this to be shrinked to 66mm2 on 10nm and 100Mtr/mm2. Of course it doesn't translate to perfect scaling but the 10nm chip would be much much smaller. perhaps you didn't ask for it, dont flatter your self, the dummy layer is there for better cooling of 10nm. Remember this chip was not supposed to release on 14nm, AMD forced it.
 
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
2,178 (0.54/day)
Location
Deez Nutz, bozo!
System Name Rainbow Puke Machine :D
Processor Intel Core i5-11400 (MCE enabled, PL removed)
Motherboard ASUS STRIX B560-G GAMING WIFI mATX
Cooling Corsair H60i RGB PRO XT AIO + HD120 RGB (x3) + SP120 RGB PRO (x3) + Commander PRO
Memory Corsair Vengeance RGB RT 2 x 8GB 3200MHz DDR4 C16
Video Card(s) Zotac RTX2060 Twin Fan 6GB GDDR6 (Stock)
Storage Corsair MP600 PRO 1TB M.2 PCIe Gen4 x4 SSD
Display(s) LG 29WK600-W Ultrawide 1080p IPS Monitor (primary display)
Case Corsair iCUE 220T RGB Airflow (White) w/Lighting Node CORE + Lighting Node PRO RGB LED Strips (x4).
Audio Device(s) ASUS ROG Supreme FX S1220A w/ Savitech SV3H712 AMP + Sonic Studio 3 suite
Power Supply Corsair RM750x 80 Plus Gold Fully Modular
Mouse Corsair M65 RGB FPS Gaming (White)
Keyboard Corsair K60 PRO RGB Mechanical w/ Cherry VIOLA Switches
VR HMD Pico 4 128GB AIO VR Headset* (* = in consideration of getting one)
Software Windows 10 Professional x64 (Update 22H2)
everyday use, soldered TIM does the job already. Don't need to waste your time & money in those delidding business unless one knows the risk of doing so in the pursuit of those silly world record.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
3,275 (0.46/day)
Location
Sunny California
Processor Intel Core i9 13900KF
Motherboard Asus ROG Maximus Z690 Hero EVA Edition
Cooling Asus Ryujin II 360 EVA Edition
Memory 4x16GBs DDR5 6800MHz G.Skill Trident Z5 Neo Series
Video Card(s) Zotac RTX 4090 AMP Extreme Airo
Storage 2TB Samsung 980 Pro OS - 4TB Nextorage G Series Games - 8TBs WD Black Storage
Display(s) LG C2 OLED 42" 4K 120Hz HDR G-Sync enabled TV
Case Asus ROG Helios EVA Edition
Audio Device(s) Denon AVR-S910W - 7.1 Klipsch Dolby ATMOS Speaker Setup - Audeze Maxwell
Power Supply EVGA Supernova G2 1300W
Mouse Asus ROG Keris EVA Edition - Asus ROG Scabbard II EVA Edition
Keyboard Asus ROG Strix Scope EVA Edition
VR HMD Samsung Odyssey VR
Software Windows 11 Pro 64bit
This is to be expected given that the liquid metal has a vastly higher thermal conductivity than the various sTIM compositions used in the industry.

Everyone and their dog knows this, how is this front page news? :confused:
 
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
2,178 (0.54/day)
Location
Deez Nutz, bozo!
System Name Rainbow Puke Machine :D
Processor Intel Core i5-11400 (MCE enabled, PL removed)
Motherboard ASUS STRIX B560-G GAMING WIFI mATX
Cooling Corsair H60i RGB PRO XT AIO + HD120 RGB (x3) + SP120 RGB PRO (x3) + Commander PRO
Memory Corsair Vengeance RGB RT 2 x 8GB 3200MHz DDR4 C16
Video Card(s) Zotac RTX2060 Twin Fan 6GB GDDR6 (Stock)
Storage Corsair MP600 PRO 1TB M.2 PCIe Gen4 x4 SSD
Display(s) LG 29WK600-W Ultrawide 1080p IPS Monitor (primary display)
Case Corsair iCUE 220T RGB Airflow (White) w/Lighting Node CORE + Lighting Node PRO RGB LED Strips (x4).
Audio Device(s) ASUS ROG Supreme FX S1220A w/ Savitech SV3H712 AMP + Sonic Studio 3 suite
Power Supply Corsair RM750x 80 Plus Gold Fully Modular
Mouse Corsair M65 RGB FPS Gaming (White)
Keyboard Corsair K60 PRO RGB Mechanical w/ Cherry VIOLA Switches
VR HMD Pico 4 128GB AIO VR Headset* (* = in consideration of getting one)
Software Windows 10 Professional x64 (Update 22H2)
@15th Warlock probably a "new thing" that Intel has been keeping that stuff in the dark & only brings it to light speficially for this new SKU??
 
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Messages
6,728 (1.68/day)
Everyone and their dog knows this, how is this front page news? :confused:
What's noteworthy is how the die & the PCB are extra thick, Roman speculated that it might be for the extra large (air) coolers that this chip obviously needs.
The extra thickness is what's probably causing excess heat buildup.
 
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
1,586 (0.34/day)
Location
Kaunas, Lithuania
System Name my box
Processor AMD Ryzen 9 5950X
Motherboard ASRock Taichi x470 Ultimate
Cooling NZXT Kraken x72
Memory 2×16GiB @ 3200MHz, some Corsair RGB led meme crap
Video Card(s) AMD [ASUS ROG STRIX] Radeon RX Vega64 [OC Edition]
Storage Samsung 970 Pro && 2× Seagate IronWolf Pro 4TB in Raid 1
Display(s) Asus VG278H + Asus VH226H
Case Fractal Design Define R6 Black TG
Audio Device(s) Using optical S/PDIF output lol
Power Supply Corsair AX1200i
Mouse Razer Naga Epic
Keyboard Keychron Q1
Software Funtoo Linux
Benchmark Scores 217634.24 BogoMIPS
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
20,780 (5.97/day)
Location
The Washing Machine
Processor i7 8700k 4.6Ghz @ 1.24V
Motherboard AsRock Fatal1ty K6 Z370
Cooling beQuiet! Dark Rock Pro 3
Memory 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200/C16
Video Card(s) ASRock RX7900XT Phantom Gaming
Storage Samsung 850 EVO 1TB + Samsung 830 256GB + Crucial BX100 250GB + Toshiba 1TB HDD
Display(s) Gigabyte G34QWC (3440x1440)
Case Fractal Design Define R5
Audio Device(s) Harman Kardon AVR137 + 2.1
Power Supply EVGA Supernova G2 750W
Mouse XTRFY M42
Keyboard Lenovo Thinkpad Trackpoint II
Software W10 x64
Why is the 9900K so hot? - der8auer

Because his silicon cash cow is rapidly drying up now with soldered solutions that really are pointless to improve upon.

Wake up people.

1540021232295.png

Little scope for improvement for the consumer. Let's see how overclocking is doing in 2018 besides Intel, shall we.

- Nvidia GPU: clocks right to cap out of the box. BIOS locked down tight, temperature limited.
- AMD CPU: overclocking can be detrimental to performance, and barely nets gains in any case.
- AMD GPU: they can still overclock, but don't have much more than 10% left in the can. High end GPUs need to be downvolted instead.
- Intel CPU 8th Gen and previous: being clocked closer to their cap and straight into 'our' OC headroom. Not just on K CPUs either. Delid on 8th gen and earlier would provide lower temps, but barely improved clock potential.

Gosh, its almost a trend, isn't it...
 

Attachments

  • 1540021055607.png
    1540021055607.png
    12.8 KB · Views: 296
Last edited:
Joined
May 12, 2017
Messages
2,178 (0.87/day)
1 hour to grind down the die, far too long for me. where did I put my angle grinder. All jokes aside, is it worth it for around 6c from delidded to lowering the height of the die.
 
Joined
Dec 18, 2005
Messages
8,253 (1.24/day)
System Name money pit..
Processor Intel 9900K 4.8 at 1.152 core voltage minus 0.120 offset
Motherboard Asus rog Strix Z370-F Gaming
Cooling Dark Rock TF air cooler.. Stock vga air coolers with case side fans to help cooling..
Memory 32 gb corsair vengeance 3200
Video Card(s) Palit Gaming Pro OC 2080TI
Storage 150 nvme boot drive partition.. 1T Sandisk sata.. 1T Transend sata.. 1T 970 evo nvme m 2..
Display(s) 27" Asus PG279Q ROG Swift 165Hrz Nvidia G-Sync, IPS.. 2560x1440..
Case Gigabyte mid-tower.. cheap and nothing special..
Audio Device(s) onboard sounds with stereo amp..
Power Supply EVGA 850 watt..
Mouse Logitech G700s
Keyboard Logitech K270
Software Win 10 pro..
Benchmark Scores Firestike 29500.. timepsy 14000..
genuine competition means that both parties now run their chips at the speeds they are capable of as opposed to one team cruising with plenty of overclocking headroom and the other team struggling to keep up..

also adding two more cores plus an increase in clock speed isnt easy its bound to cause heat problems when all cores are working hard..

soldering the lid on has helped a bit but not by much.. the bottom line being that the days of good problem free overclocks are now over on the top end chips.. maybe that is how things should be..

the 9600K is a better option for those that want to save some dosh and have all (six) cores at 5 gig or a tad over.. two cores less will make all the difference..

the fact these things only boost fully on one or two cores tells the true story and has done for a while..

trog
 
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
2,648 (0.56/day)
Location
Greece
Processor AMD Ryzen 5 5600@80W
Motherboard MSI B550 Tomahawk
Cooling ZALMAN CNPS9X OPTIMA
Memory 2*8GB PATRIOT PVS416G400C9K@3733MT_C16
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon RX 6750 XT Pulse 12GB
Storage Sandisk SSD 128GB, Kingston A2000 NVMe 1TB, Samsung F1 1TB, WD Black 10TB
Display(s) AOC 27G2U/BK IPS 144Hz
Case SHARKOON M25-W 7.1 BLACK
Audio Device(s) Realtek 7.1 onboard
Power Supply Seasonic Core GC 500W
Mouse Sharkoon SHARK Force Black
Keyboard Trust GXT280
Software Win 7 Ultimate 64bit/Win 10 pro 64bit/Manjaro Linux
Joined
Apr 12, 2013
Messages
6,728 (1.68/day)
Since I see big differences in power draw and temps between reviews (the TPU one has resulted in the low end of both), I can only assume that the bios settings of the different motherboards tested have to do with it. Some power limiters are on or off probably and change the results drastically.

An example below that show that clearly.

https://www.hardocp.com/article/2018/10/19/intel_core_i99900k_9th_generation_cpu_review/5

There's also different workloads for power consumption numbers showing up on different review sites, the PL2 limit is exceeded in AVX heavy stress tests. That's a fact, so max power consumption, at it's worst, is 220W or thereabouts.
 
Joined
Dec 15, 2006
Messages
1,703 (0.27/day)
Location
Oshkosh, WI
System Name ChoreBoy
Processor 8700k Delided
Motherboard Gigabyte Z390 Master
Cooling 420mm Custom Loop
Memory CMK16GX4M2B3000C15 2x8GB @ 3000Mhz
Video Card(s) EVGA 1080 SC
Storage 1TB SX8200, 250GB 850 EVO, 250GB Barracuda
Display(s) Pixio PX329 and Dell E228WFP
Case Fractal R6
Audio Device(s) On-Board
Power Supply 1000w Corsair
Software Win 10 Pro
Benchmark Scores A million on everything....
I saw in the video that he put pressure down on the IHS as he was resoldering it. He probably should have resoldered without putting any pressure down. Perhaps that, combined with the glue scraped away, would have helped avoid the spiked temps on certain cores due to cracking solder.:confused:

I kinda saw this coming anyways. Didn't wanna be that guy crying about how hard its going to be to delid--seeing as we all wanted solder in the first place. They definitely could have done a better job of it though.
 

Durvelle27

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 10, 2012
Messages
6,678 (1.56/day)
Location
Memphis, TN
System Name Black Prometheus
Processor |AMD Ryzen 7 1700X
Motherboard ASRock B550M Pro4|MSI X370 Gaming PLUS
Cooling Thermalright PA120 SE | AMD Stock Cooler
Memory G.Skill 64GB(2x32GB) 3200MHz | 32GB(4x8GB) DDR4
Video Card(s) |AMD R9 290
Storage Sandisk X300 512GB + WD Black 6TB+WD Black 6TB
Display(s) LG Nanocell85 49" 4K 120Hz + ACER AOPEN 34" 3440x1440 144Hz
Case DeepCool Matrexx 55 V3 w/ 6x120mm Intake + 3x120mm Exhaust
Audio Device(s) LG Dolby Atmos 5.1
Power Supply Corsair RMX850 Fully Modular| EVGA 750W G2
Mouse Logitech Trackman
Keyboard Logitech K350
Software Windows 10 EDU x64
Maybe next batches will be much better
 

ppn

Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Messages
1,231 (0.39/day)
Why is the 9900K so hot? - der8auer

Because his silicon cash cow is rapidly drying up now with soldered solutions that really are pointless to improve upon.

Wake up people.

Gosh, its almost a trend, isn't it...

They justify delidding and lapping the die for +200MHz, or 4% overclock is aimed at some enthusiasts. I guess For normal use, no small ftt, it will rarely heat above 65C. This guy takes absolutely the heaviest load, small ftt or else.
 

qubit

Overclocked quantum bit
Joined
Dec 6, 2007
Messages
17,866 (3.00/day)
Location
Quantum Well UK
System Name Quantumville™
Processor Intel Core i7-2700K @ 4GHz
Motherboard Asus P8Z68-V PRO/GEN3
Cooling Noctua NH-D14
Memory 16GB (2 x 8GB Corsair Vengeance Black DDR3 PC3-12800 C9 1600MHz)
Video Card(s) MSI RTX 2080 SUPER Gaming X Trio
Storage Samsung 850 Pro 256GB | WD Black 4TB | WD Blue 6TB
Display(s) ASUS ROG Strix XG27UQR (4K, 144Hz, G-SYNC compatible) | Asus MG28UQ (4K, 60Hz, FreeSync compatible)
Case Cooler Master HAF 922
Audio Device(s) Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Fatal1ty PCIe
Power Supply Corsair AX1600i
Mouse Microsoft Intellimouse Pro - Black Shadow
Keyboard Yes
Software Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
Intel spend millions on developing these processors, yet they can't give them the best thermal solution possible.

The savings they make from not using the best are miniscule and the processors are quite expensive, so cost can't be a factor. I just don't get it.
 
Top