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3800X build bad performance - what am I doing wrong?

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@ecopsorn Are you just using the NT-H1 that came with the D15? It doesn't sound like case airflow is the culprit here. The thing about idle temperatures on Matisse is that a idle peak of 50-60C is just fine, because of how Zen 2 cores respond quickly to load, but idling around 50C and never dipping below is somewhat concerning on a top of the line air cooler like the D15. I idle around 30-40C and peak to 50C once in a blue moon on just a U9S, a cooler that's only 3/4 the height and just over 1/2 the heatsink mass of the D15.

As for load, the CPU itself starts taking off performance when it starts getting too warm. Given your idle temperatures, it very much feels like the 3800X is holding itself back (ie. load temps would be much higher if Matisse wasn't as smart as it is regarding thermal management), giving you the terrible performance you're seeing. It definitely sounds like there's a contact issue. I'd check the cooler mounting, redo the paste application, and/or check your fan speeds in BIOS.

Secufirm can be a little bit fiddly sometimes with regards to tightening down both of the spring-loaded screws. If you fully tighten one before engaging the other's threads, the other won't want to tighten. Align the cooler, then tighten a little bit at a time until both screws have barely engaged their threads, then tighten them down until they stop, no overtightening.

Honestly, it sounds like you should just try a better kit of RAM. And if you're lucky, the retailer you buy from has a 14-day or 1 month hassle free return window where you can just return it for your money back if you find a way to live with the Vengeance RGB.

Vengeance RGB has a large heatspreader. If I'm not mistaken, it's a bit bigger than all G.skill Trident models.

Have you stepped up the SoC voltage yet to around 1.08-1.09V to see if that does the trick?
  • I did tighten them evenly of course, but I had so much trouble that the screws even found the grip and moved the cooler around slightly, that was definitely not ideal. I will shutdown my computer after this post and remove the cooler and reapply with new paste and hopefully better luck with the screws
  • About the ram, nah I'm out of luck there, best they do is take it back and I stuck with 90% of the costs, or otherwise I just sell it.
  • While I'm removing the cooler, I'm gonna measure exactly how tall the ram blocks can be so I can install both fans on my noctua. Hopefully I can end up with a good g.skill than
 
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that tRC of 75 is way to high set it to 54 I had the same issue with my Asus Strixx x470F Gaming where it would set the tRC to nearly double the SPD setting for no apparent reason even with DOCP once I figured out WTH was going on and set it manually it stopped taking so long to boot
 
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Did you install all the drivers for your board?
 
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Did you install all the drivers for your board?
yes, the crate thingy, all drivers seam up to date including chipset

Guys, cooler is off. Can u tell from these pics whether the paste was applied shitty? Spreads seems even but not really covering all of the surface. Applying more?

as for ram, I can only use a 32mm height one if I want to use the second noctua fan. I guess no good g.skill trident offers that, right? So it is the decision between 2fans and new 32mm rams or 1 fan and g.skills

Now as I have the cooler off I’m thinking off putting. The SSD in the second slot that is not directly underneath the GPU. Would that make sense or would I destroy the whole windows installation?
 

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tabascosauz

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@ecopsorn is this the D15 chromax? Running it with 1 fan is literally what a D15S is, and thats on par with the U12A in performance. Read: all far better than what you are currently experiencing.

Just clean it all off, use a rice grain in the middle, and take care not to shift the cooler around a hundred times while you get it tightened down. It should "sit" into place on the brackets if you've set those up properly, then get to work tightening both screws evenly.

Not sure why you're using the Armory Crate gimmick for anything at all. This isn't a laptop needing special drivers from the manufacturer. Just go to AMD's website and get the latest chipset drivers for X570.

Putting it in the second M.2 slot may give you lower temperatures, but all of them are well heatsinked, and you're not focusing on getting done what matters. Have you checked your SOC voltage yet?
 
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Haha you’re right, one thing at a time. Ok getting the cooler in again and checking temps and chipset drivers soon.
Yes SOC I always tested between 1 and 1.1

Back to windows. Cooler re-installed. Same bad temps.
I did install the latest chipset driver from AMDs website. Crate showed strange version numbers but now I am sure I have the latest.
 
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tabascosauz

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Haha you’re right, one thing at a time. Ok getting the cooler in again and checking temps and chipset drivers soon.
Yes SOC I always tested between 1 and 1.1

Back to windows. Cooler re-installed. Same bad temps.
I did install the latest chipset driver from AMDs website. Crate showed strange version numbers but now I am sure I have the latest.

No, make sure your SoC is up closer to 1.1, if not that. I don't know what your board's Auto setting specifies for SoC, mine is automatically 1.1. Also, what are your Vcore settings, what does CPU Vcore look like at idle, and what is the highest SVI2 TFN Vcore reading in HWInfo while you are running Cinebench?

At this point I can't think of much else that's up on the temperatures front aside from reminding you to check that the lone NF-A15 fan on the D15 is plugged in and actually spinning properly. Pretty much everyone's made that mistake once before.
 
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No, make sure your SoC is up closer to 1.1, if not that. I don't know what your board's Auto setting specifies for SoC, mine is automatically 1.1. Also, what are your Vcore settings, what does CPU Vcore look like at idle, and what is the highest SVI2 TFN Vcore reading in HWInfo while you are running Cinebench?

At this point I can't think of much else that's up on the temperatures front aside from reminding you to check that the lone NF-A15 fan on the D15 is plugged in and actually spinning properly. Pretty much everyone's made that mistake once before.

SVI2 TFN is constant at 0.987 V at idle AND during cinebench, is that how it is supposed to be?
My board sets SoC to 1.0 but I'm gonna put it back to 1.1 and leave it there.
These are my idle values:
1589069995550.png


I do have a small success to report. In cinebench I do have only 77°C instead of 80°C now after the cooler re-install. At least something. At idle though, it is stilll silly jumping from 52° to 61°C back and forth.
About the fan, it is correctly installed, no low noise crap in between, I even checked the direction of ALL fans and it all is correct, all are spinning well.
 

tabascosauz

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@ecopsorn No, that SoC is way low. Get it up to at least 1.08V. It seems that LLC for SoC on your board is on Auto setting and it'll droop a bit, so you should be good with 1.1V.

Whenever you need to monitor Vcore or SoC, look to SVI2 TFN. It's what the CPU is reporting. The board's reported values can be all over the place.

Vcore SVI2 range seems about right, idle temps just seem somewhat on the high side, but that may also be a 8-core 105W part thing.

I'm intrigued by this idle behaviour, it was fixed for most of us something like 2 AGESA revisions ago and 3 chipset firmware updates ago. What kind of background processes do you have running on your computer?
 
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@tabascosauz
and yet i had two gskill kits (one even samsung B) that wont perform any better than stock xmp (3600-18/22/22/2@1.35) even with more v,
but my corsair veng pro (3600-18/22/22/42@1.35), with micron chips, does 3600-16/19/19/36/1t@1.32v.
the complete opposite of "i dont recommend corsair..." that some ppl post in forums, instead of helping (not you tho).

@ecopsorn
turn off any oc, you wanna get the machine to run properly before adding nitrous :D
usually zen2 does better with PBO of (still uses PB), and see if you can turn off docp/xmp and just do the main timings/volt manually (e.g. numbers from sticker/SPD).
you could try stock settings on ram and just crank up to 3600 (to match max IF of 1800mhz) and use something like memtest to verify
("impossible" settings usually cause errors within min, something showing up on test 5/6/7 can most of the time fixed with a bit more voltage/more moderate settings)

turn off the memory learning/training in bios AFTER you found what the ram can run, should help with boot time.


edit since i forgot ram speed
 
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@ecopsorn No, that SoC is way low. Get it up to at least 1.08V. It seems that LLC for SoC on your board is on Auto setting and it'll droop a bit, so you should be good with 1.1V.

Whenever you need to monitor Vcore or SoC, look to SVI2 TFN. It's what the CPU is reporting. The board's reported values can be all over the place.

Vcore SVI2 range seems about right, idle temps just seem somewhat on the high side, but that may also be a 8-core 105W part thing.

I'm intrigued by this idle behaviour, it was fixed for most of us something like 2 AGESA revisions ago and 3 chipset firmware updates ago. What kind of background processes do you have running on your computer?
I don't have any special background programs running where I have the feeling it could influence temp. I do have wallpaper engine on sometimes, but that doesn't seem to influence idle temps.
The only other thing I could imagine is Display Fusion, I have 3 monitors running. But even there, I tried all of it with only 1 monitor plugged in already.

These are my values now:
3200/1600 - DRAM 1.45V, SoC 1.1V, 16-18-18-18-36-54 having XMP on again.. The system will not post as soon as I type a value in tRFC. Even I high one such as 400. HWinfo therefore shows me 560 Trfc....

@tabascosauz
and yet i had two gskill kits (one even samsung B) that wont perform any better than stock xmp (18/22/22/2@1.35) even with more v,
but my corsair veng pro (18/22/22/42@1.35), with micron chips, does 16/19/19/36/1t@1.32v.
the complete opposite of "i dont recommend corsair..." that some ppl post in forums, instead of helping (not you tho).

@ecopsorn
turn off any oc, you wanna get the machine to run properly before adding nitrous :D
usually zen2 does better with PBO of (still uses PB), and see if you can turn off docp/xmp and just do the main timings/volt manually (e.g. numbers from sticker/SPD).
you could try stock settings on ram and just crank up to 3600 (to match max IF of 1800mhz) and use something like memtest to verify
("impossible" settings usually cause errors within min, something showing up on test 5/6/7 can most of the time fixed with a bit more voltage/more moderate settings)

turn off the memory learning/training in bios AFTER you found what the ram can run, should help with boot time.

Hey there, I did try that but not having XMP on and setting it to Auto and typing in the most important values won't let me POST, seriously that's so screwed. I keep getting error 22 on my board after doing the most basic timing settings while XMP is off and I have to reset CMOS....

PBO is disabled now. I wish I could reach 3600, but no matter if XMP on or off and whatnot, I cannot reach 3600 and boot windows, no chance, tried for hours in all f* combinations.


what do you mean by "turn off the memory learning/training? how can it be turned off?


So for everybody, summary of today
  • I have to sign off and 3a.m after testing for 7h without a break. I appreciate this great support, so many people are trying to help!
  • It really seems that my ram are extreme trash. I wonder if I should send it in for a warranty claim lol? what do you think?
  • In any way, I will follow the advice of all of you and will get some G.Skillz. When I have a clear mind, I will post some available ram tomorrow so you can help me to decide which one I shall buy. Tips are already plenty in the forum, so I'm trying to find those blocks.
  • And as a question to you all - could it really be that with proper rams, all my issues get resolved lol? I just have the feeling that I will end up switching the board as well..... after all, GPU not benching how it should, SSD not benching how it should, ridiculous temps on CPU and so on.
Thanks everybody and good night
 

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@tabascosauz
and yet i had two gskill kits (one even samsung B) that wont perform any better than stock xmp (18/22/22/2@1.35) even with more v,
but my corsair veng pro (18/22/22/42@1.35), with micron chips, does 16/19/19/36/1t@1.32v.
the complete opposite of "i dont recommend corsair..." that some ppl post in forums, instead of helping (not you tho).

To be fair, G.skill's lower end kits that are 3200/16 or 3600/18 are an absolute shit show and no better than any other manufacturer because of the IC lottery that they all play at those speeds. But I've found just one (1) Corsair kit that is decent - an LPX at 3600/14 - which stands out from the other 50 garbage LPX/RGB kits; it costs $289 for a 16GB kit. Corsair may have the price advantage because LPX is consistently so affordable, but there's this vast empty gulf in their product stack between the trash and the one or two ultra high-end and insanely priced B-die Dominators. At least with G.skill's new wave of Trident/Neo/RGB, you can choose to pay a little bit more than LPX price for a 3600/16, even if the secondary timings aren't as tight because it uses CJR/DJR or Rev.E; you don't have to shell out for a 4400 Royal kit to get some semblance of quality.

And I should know full well that G.skill is no angel. My previous Trident Z kit, now sitting as a backup, had 4Gb D-die, of all the ICs they could have used.

But the kit that replaced was a similar 3200/16 Corsair LPX kit that wouldn't even POST at JEDEC speeds, except for one stick; said stick on its own couldn't pass memtest86, let alone testing in-OS.

@ecopsorn Much respect for putting in the troubleshooting effort. I don't think you'll find Corsair to be much help; in their defense, XMP 2.0 is an Intel standard, and unless you buy one of their certified Ryzen-compatible kits, they haven't really done anything "wrong", per se. Do check in when you're contemplating what to buy, and although info on the forum isn't exactly well-organized, there's a lot of discussion here about what kits are good and what kits aren't.

There was another thread from some time ago about trying to make 3200/16 poor quality B-die Vengeance RGB work, and I think it did work out in the end. But having put up to 1.45V into them and not seeing much of an improvement, I'm not sure this kit is worth your time.
 
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@ecopsorn
did you also increase ram v to 1.35 before reboot?

@tabascosauz
its shitty for C to have that large gap, most of the time getting me to buy the regular veng, as it wasnt always for me,
or because i was running intel (timings less relevant, mainly clocks).

Yeah, feel you there. couldn't even get the b-die gskill to post on my aorus ultra,
only after cranking up stock v to 1.35 would it even decide to post.
funny part, the gskill kits were both on the board list, the corsair not :D

main reason why i buy most components at MC or amazon,return within 30 days ("..it just stopped working.." lol)
and i can get something different.
 
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Your memory speed does not explain your extremely low CineBench 20 results.

1. Please try to load BIOS defaults, save them and do not change anything afterwards. Do not even enable XMPP/DCCP or anything - just pure defaults. You may disable additional controllers (e.g. Firewire) in BIOS which you're sure you'll never use.
2. Please then try to boot Windows in safe mode to eliminate any backgrounds tasks - make sure task manager reports 0% CPU load after you booted this way.
3. Then try running CM20 again and report your results.

Once you've done the above please load an XMPP profile (enable DCCP) and reboot into safe mode once again. Run CB20 and report your results again.

From your HWiNFO screen your system looks 100% fine - the CPU is using up to 120W of power which is line with a slightly overclocked Ryzen 7 3800X.

Your CPU temperatures look a little bit too high to my liking but maybe they are OK. I have a pretty cheap air cooling and in BIOS my 3700X CPU is 10C colder than yours.
 
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At least with G.skill's new wave of Trident/Neo/RGB, you can choose to pay a little bit more than LPX price for a 3600/16, even if the secondary timings aren't as tight because it uses CJR/DJR or Rev.E; you don't have to shell out for a 4400 Royal kit to get some semblance of quality.

My Neo 3600 c16 was $180. Edit: for 2 x 16gb.


@ecopsorn Much respect for putting in the troubleshooting effort. I don't think you'll find Corsair to be much help; in their defense, XMP 2.0 is an Intel standard, and unless you buy one of their certified Ryzen-compatible kits, they haven't really done anything "wrong", per se. Do check in when you're contemplating what to buy, and although info on the forum isn't exactly well-organized, there's a lot of discussion here about what kits are good and what kits aren't.

In my opinion, don't worry about b die and get an affordable kit that just works. I am not saying bottom tier junk but something like the Neos. The difference between 3600 16 19 19 38 and 3600 16 16 16 32 ain't THAT much.

After I say that, I would go back and spend the extra $40 it was back then and get the better specs. Not sure what the difference is now but much more than that just doesn't seem worth it.
 
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Hey guys I’m back. I’m gonna look for ram now. I live in Switzerland so I gotta see what’s available here.
So if you were in my shoes, the most guys wrote 3600 cl16 is what I should look for, right?

some more bullets:
  • Would u still go 2x16? I read 4x8 has lower latency?
  • I think 32gb is ok for me - doing gaming and gopro video editing. Shall I still look for 32?
  • G.skill neo or royal are both fine to consider?
  • What would be the best ram for me, speed, frequency, number of blocks if money is no object?
 
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Hey guys I’m back. I’m gonna look for ram now. I live in Switzerland so I gotta see what’s available here.
So if you were in my shoes, the most guys wrote 3600 cl16 is what I should look for, right?

some more bullets:
  • Would u still go 2x16? I read 4x8 has lower latency?
  • I think 32gb is ok for me - doing gaming and gopro video editing. Shall I still look for 32?
  • G.skill neo or royal are both fine to consider?
  • What would be the best ram for me, speed, frequency, number of blocks if money is no object?

Looking at the memory QVL for your motherboard it seems you can't go wrong with any G.Skill 2x16GB 3600mhz kit, just go for the G.skill Neo 2x16GB 3600mhz cas 16 kit as it is the best for Ryzen 2 atm.
If you want 4 Dimms of either 8GB or 16GB you have to check with the memory QVL first.
TBH though I never liked Asus motherboard, the bioses are too complicated for beginners, at the request of my friend I had to build 2 systems with Asus Z97 and Z390 and the bioses were confusing AF...If you choose motherboard based on VRM thermal performance then it is a little off the mark....
 
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This is what I have, works for me, but YMMV. I run my four 8Gb modules at 16-19-16-19-36 as pointed out elsewhere. I bought two different kits at two different times, but I guess I was just lucky according to some people here...
Not saying this is the ultimate RAM for Ryzen 3000, it's Hynix CJR, but it's affordable and in my case and a few others, works well, as long as you don't use the XMP settings.

Might be worth giving the latest DRAM calculator a spin before you throw out what you have.

Looking at the memory QVL for your motherboard it seems you can't go wrong with any G.Skill 2x16GB 3600mhz kit, just go for the G.skill Neo 2x16GB 3600mhz cas 16 kit as it is the best for Ryzen 2 atm.
If you want 4 Dimms of either 8GB or 16GB you have to check with the memory QVL first.
TBH though I never liked Asus motherboard, the bioses are too complicated for beginners, at the request of my friend I had to build 2 systems with Asus Z97 and Z390 and the bioses were confusing AF...If you choose motherboard based on VRM thermal performance then it is a little off the mark....
QVL's are once again BS. They only contain RAM that the board makers have on hand. So if a memory manufacturer haven't given them their modules to test, they won't be on the QVL. Sure, it's a place to start, but my old Corsair RAM was on AMD's QVL, same revision and everything, yet, it never worked at its rated speed, so yeah, useless QVL.

If you can't figure out the UEFI, then maybe you're not qualified to build systems for others..?
 
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Hey guys - I put 3 variations for comparison:
According to the manufacturer number, g.skill website shows this for the royal ones 16-16-16-36. The currency is CHF which is currently about the same as US$.
The 2x16GB 3600 are CL16-19-19-39.
All of them are on the QVL if that matters ;)


1589104602834.png
 

TheLostSwede

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Hey guys - I put 3 variations for comparison:
According to the manufacturer number, g.skill website shows this for the royal ones 16-16-16-36. The currency is CHF which is currently about the same as US$.
The 2x16GB 3600 are CL16-19-19-39.
All of them are on the QVL if that matters ;)


View attachment 154585
Personally, I think you're wasting money on diminishing returns here. That said, these are supposed to be good modules with Ryzen CPUs. I don't think it really matters what you get, if those are the options you're looking at.
 
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yeah I surely don't wanna waste money but I'm also not willing to accept a 2800$ build to run like crap.
I've downloaded the latest DRAM calc 1.7.1 and this what it spits out for 3200 with imported taiphoon readout
1589105712353.png


not much difference to the old version and I'm 100% sure it won't POST like this.
 

TheLostSwede

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yeah I surely don't wanna waste money but I'm also not willing to accept a 2800$ build to run like crap.
I've downloaded the latest DRAM calc 1.7.1 and this what it spits out for 3200 with imported taiphoon readout
View attachment 154586

not much difference to the old version and I'm 100% sure it won't POST like this.
Try that, but tCL 16. If that doesn't work, then it would seem your RAM is really a dud.
 
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This is what I have, works for me, but YMMV. I run my four 8Gb modules at 16-19-16-19-36 as pointed out elsewhere. I bought two different kits at two different times, but I guess I was just lucky according to some people here...
Not saying this is the ultimate RAM for Ryzen 3000, it's Hynix CJR, but it's affordable and in my case and a few others, works well, as long as you don't use the XMP settings.

Might be worth giving the latest DRAM calculator a spin before you throw out what you have.


QVL's are once again BS. They only contain RAM that the board makers have on hand. So if a memory manufacturer haven't given them their modules to test, they won't be on the QVL. Sure, it's a place to start, but my old Corsair RAM was on AMD's QVL, same revision and everything, yet, it never worked at its rated speed, so yeah, useless QVL.

If you can't figure out the UEFI, then maybe you're not qualified to build systems for others..?

A lot of personal attacks here pal, there are a lot of options within the Asus UEFI which are over-complicated, to ignore the package power limits on Intel CPU there are like 2-3 options you must set on the Asus board while on MSI or Gigabyte it's just 1. As the build was for someone else I don't have that much time with it, and I had to read the Overclocking guide on something as simple as bypass power limits was a little embarrassing...

If your Corsair RAM was on the motherboard QVL and it didn't work, that could also attributed to the memory controller on the CPU, which the motherboard manufacturer can't control. There are 2 separate QVL for AMD Matisse and Picasso CPU, not sure you read the correct QVL for you CPU pal, better read the correct QVL next time before you blame something...

Hey guys - I put 3 variations for comparison:
According to the manufacturer number, g.skill website shows this for the royal ones 16-16-16-36. The currency is CHF which is currently about the same as US$.
The 2x16GB 3600 are CL16-19-19-39.
All of them are on the QVL if that matters ;)

I would pick the G.Skill Trident Z Neo 2x16GB kit myself, if you do some sort of video editing then 32GB is a good place to start.
 
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@ecopsorn
i would still check if you can get some CL18 kits for less (unless budget isn't an issue),
getting the speed up to 3600 (to max out IF clock) is more important than lowering latency.
two sticks would be best (outside quad channel boards), as 4 sticks usually will drop something (clock and/or timings)/might need some more V etc.
also remember with x570 two (DS/DR) modules would perform "better" than using four.

@nguyen
the need to change more/less settings "to do the same"/having problems with different brands using different terms etc for someone messing with power limits/stuff in detail,
or ppl having a hard time to know the difference between xm,p and doc, are ppl that should leave "bios" alone, and is exactly what TLS said, not a problem with brand, but the operator.
 
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TheLostSwede

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A lot of personal attacks here pal, there are a lot of options within the Asus UEFI which are over-complicated, to ignore the package power limits on the 8700K there are like 2-3 options you must set on the Asus board while on MSI or Gigabyte it's just 1. As someone who is used to Gigabyte and MSI UEFI the terminology used on ASUS boards are also different (D.O.C.P vs XMP)
Personal attacks? You make statements, as if you're an expert and then come and say you can't configure the UEFI on a board, that somewhat diminishes your previous statements. That's not an attack, that's a fact.
I had no issues whatsoever with my previous Asus X370 board. In fact, I don't ever remember having issues figuring out a UEFI. Yes, some of the layouts can be bad, but that doesn't prevent them from being used as they should. I guess you haven't looked at the advanced settings on a recent Gigabyte board? In my experience, all the board makers use different terminology and have completely different layouts, in fact, my Z270 board in my NAS, is nothing like my X570 board, yet I have no problem setting up either board.
It doesn't mean I can work any board from memory, but I know how to find the settings I need when I'm sat in front of it.

@ecopsorn
i would still check if you can get some CL18 kits for less (unless budget isn't an issue),
getting the speed up to 3600 (to max out IF clock) is more important than lowering latency.
two sticks would be best (outside quad channel boards), as 4 sticks usually will drop something (clock and/or timings)/might need some more V etc.
also remember with x570 two (DS/DR) modules would perform "better" than using four.
Please provide some proof for your random statement here.
I was not expecting four modules to work all that well either, but that was based on having used Intel systems in the past.
However, based both on my own experience and the link below, you don't actually lose anything with going four modules on Ryzen 3000, instead, you're likely to gain a smidgen of performance. I was really sceptical when I read this the first time around, but it turns out that it's true.
Also, 3600 is hardly maxing out IF clocks, as most people with a 3800X can go to 3733 or 3800MHz 1:1.
 
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