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Intel 13th Gen Support?

TheNaitsyrk

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It's been a while since I've used TS, but have used and supported it for years. New laptop and not really a new issue but here's the pictures to show what I'm dealing with.
MSI Stealth 15m A13FV
i9 13900H
RTX 4060

I'm not interested in undervolting
The issue is 2 different "dynamic" PL1 and PL2 limits when the GPU/CPU are stressed.

This happens in a few situations.

1. In Discrete mode & Hybrid Graphics mode When only the CPU is stressed it won't hit its PL1 130w limit, It will only do this in Integrated graphics mode (This laptop has MUX)
2. When in integrated graphics mode the CPU will hit the 130W limit for a bit then slightly thermal throttle.
3. When I stress the CPU + GPU in either Hybrid or Discrete graphics mode, the PL1 Dynamic Drops to 45w and the PL2 Dynamic Drops to 65w

Obviously situation 3 is less than ideal as there is tons of thermal headroom

1st video shows the ideal power limits using integrated graphics mode


2nd video shows the slightly lower limits in Discrete mode


3rd video shows the behavior when GPU CPU get loaded. Ignore the 25W Power limit as that has only come up since I plugged a monitor in to the USB-C port for additional monitoring.

I understand HWinfo reports things a bit different from throttlestop



Dynamic PL1 45w PL2 65w

My laptop does have the MSI advanced BIOS where I can configure 5 million things that I have no business doing but there is extensive TDP limit control. What would I be looking for in throttlestop to possibly change these dynamic values a bit higher? I'm not looking for anything crazy, really maybe going to 55w PL1 and 75W Pl2.

One last part of the equation. laptop has a 180w power adapter and I can already get peaks well above that of around 220w and then settling back to right around 180w. Maybe that is part of the issue. I have ordered a 240w adapter to remove this possible limitation.

Thanks for the great software.
I can already tell you that it's BIOS locked and there is absolutely nothing you can do. If you go to the top of this thread, you'll be able to see that I already asked this. The only way to get more power, is to downgrade the bios to 105 (for MSI laptops) and then have slightly higher power limit whilst your GPU is in dedicated mode.

Moreover, if you switch to integrated graphics or hybrid mode the CPU power will go up, but since your GPU will be passing via the iGPU you'll be losing on average 10% of your performance.

I tried increasing limits via TS, BIOS wise, with 3 different MSI laptop, all BIOSes you can think of and that's what I found out.

Editing PL1 and PL2 will also not work because you can't change TDP overall anyway, sorry to say this but you're stuck with all that as I am.

I tried going to BIOS and changing these values to go as crazy as 300W (works on Lenovo laptop but not in MSI bios at least in 3080 Ti 12900HX model), but for MSI no luck, MSI is secure and lock down the BIOS just about enough so they don't get RMAs left right and center.

If you wish to edit those settings, buy Lenovo laptop and try, because it may have changed how they handle PL1, PL2 and limits overall now.
 

unclewebb

ThrottleStop & RealTemp Author
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The MMIO power limits in ThrottleStop are called the Dynamic power limits in HWINFO. Try checking the MMIO Lock box in the ThrottleStop TPL window. This is designed to disable these limits.

Many laptops use a third set of turbo power limits managed by an embedded controller (EC). ThrottleStop has no control over the EC turbo power limits.
 
Joined
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System Name MSI Stealth 15m A13V
Processor i9 13900H
Motherboard MSI
Cooling Stock
Memory 2x16GB DDR5 5200
Video Card(s) RTX 4060 90WTGP
Storage 1TB WD SN850x 4TB WD SN850x
Display(s) 15.6 OLDE 1440P
Benchmark Scores Passmark - 12962 Time Spy 10197
I'm not downgrading the BIOS at the risk of bricking it,

Thanks I will try the MMIO and see what happens. If it doesn't work I'm completely fine with the performance I have.
 

TheNaitsyrk

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I'm not downgrading the BIOS at the risk of bricking it,

Thanks I will try the MMIO and see what happens. If it doesn't work I'm completely fine with the performance I have.
It is what it is unfortunately. If you figure it out let me know, I tried everything and nothing worked.
 
Joined
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System Name MSI Stealth 15m A13V
Processor i9 13900H
Motherboard MSI
Cooling Stock
Memory 2x16GB DDR5 5200
Video Card(s) RTX 4060 90WTGP
Storage 1TB WD SN850x 4TB WD SN850x
Display(s) 15.6 OLDE 1440P
Benchmark Scores Passmark - 12962 Time Spy 10197
Well this was interesting.........
Locked the MMIO

I was recording was happened but since the computer crashed and fried the OS time for a reinstall.

The power limit worked for about 30 seconds.....then dropped to 6w with power limiting enabled then went back up to full power then limited to 6W......then finally crashed.




Maybe the AC adapter is the limiting factor. around 90w CPU load and 90w GPU load is 180w without factoring in any other power to the laptop so it's quite possible the Adapter can't handle it.
 

TheNaitsyrk

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Well this was interesting.........
Locked the MMIO

I was recording was happened but since the computer crashed and fried the OS time for a reinstall.

The power limit worked for about 30 seconds.....then dropped to 6w with power limiting enabled then went back up to full power then limited to 6W......then finally crashed.




Maybe the AC adapter is the limiting factor. around 90w CPU load and 90w GPU load is 180w without factoring in any other power to the laptop so it's quite possible the Adapter can't handle it.
Power supplies can usually take more than they're rated for so it's unlikely that's the case
 

unclewebb

ThrottleStop & RealTemp Author
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The power limit worked for about 30 seconds.....then dropped to 6w
It was likely the embedded controller that did not like you trying to push the CPU and GPU so hard at the same time. It might have set the EC turbo power limit close to 0 which caused full power limit throttling down to a hair under 400 MHz. Even if you switch to an adapter with a higher power rating, your computer might not change this built in limit. Some Dell laptops used to ignore higher power adapters.

Power supplies can usually take more than they're rated for
That is true but it might not matter. If the EC is programmed so you can only draw X number of watts then that is all you are going to get.
 
Joined
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System Name MSI Stealth 15m A13V
Processor i9 13900H
Motherboard MSI
Cooling Stock
Memory 2x16GB DDR5 5200
Video Card(s) RTX 4060 90WTGP
Storage 1TB WD SN850x 4TB WD SN850x
Display(s) 15.6 OLDE 1440P
Benchmark Scores Passmark - 12962 Time Spy 10197
So I'm back up and running, everything "stock" as in TS installed again but not enabled right now.

Did a TS Bench in intel GPU mode

192w



Also looked in HWINFO while in Intel GPU mode



No Dynamic PL Limits (nice) and explains why I can get to insanely high numbers

Reboot and go back to Discrete mode



One thing that changed is the cTDP modes. The MSI bios allows changing of the cTDP modes, its weird because even when using the 2 TDP in discrete mode, the dynamic limits show up. Either way thanks for the help, I hadn't seen much talk about the non HX 13th gens i this thread.
 

unclewebb

ThrottleStop & RealTemp Author
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@Tyler-98-W68

In the TPL window you can try checking the Sync MMIO box. This should copy the Static power limits to the Dynamic power limits. Not sure if this feature could be useful or dangerous to your laptop.

I usually find that the Static and Dynamic power limits take precedence over the cTDP limits.
 

Jetus

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1689616788174.png

Thats what I get on my Legion 7. But I was almost burning out the CPU. I set my ICCMax to max for both P cache and Core, and changed PL2 190 to 200 and ticked sync MMIO after that VR CURRENT shown red over there, temps went 98C instantly and CPU drawed 195W for one sec and dropped back. In this picture I have -175/70 uV with 8/40 Cache with 4.8Ghz fixed.

Do you guys think VR CURRENT red blink will damage the hardware?
 

Jetus

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Probably not. The hardware was protecting itself. That is the purpose of VR CURRENT throttling.
I also guess that would be noticeable if something wrong happened if im not wrong. Thanks for answer.
 

TheNaitsyrk

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View attachment 305197
Thats what I get on my Legion 7. But I was almost burning out the CPU. I set my ICCMax to max for both P cache and Core, and changed PL2 190 to 200 and ticked sync MMIO after that VR CURRENT shown red over there, temps went 98C instantly and CPU drawed 195W for one sec and dropped back. In this picture I have -175/70 uV with 8/40 Cache with 4.8Ghz fixed.

Do you guys think VR CURRENT red blink will damage the hardware?
Try this. Undervolt E cache, P Cache and Core CPU -140 on each and test again, set P cores to 5.1Ghz on all of them and E cores 4.0Ghz
 
Joined
Jul 16, 2023
Messages
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System Name MSI Stealth 15m A13V
Processor i9 13900H
Motherboard MSI
Cooling Stock
Memory 2x16GB DDR5 5200
Video Card(s) RTX 4060 90WTGP
Storage 1TB WD SN850x 4TB WD SN850x
Display(s) 15.6 OLDE 1440P
Benchmark Scores Passmark - 12962 Time Spy 10197
So after a few days of playing.......i totally forgot a really important piece of information that would have been helpful.

I had Nvida Dynamic Boost OFF. I had it turned off because in one game i played (Beam.Ng Drive) There was a massive increase in performance (with lots of cars spawned) with it disabled.

Somewhat off topic but here is the example.

DB ON


DB OFF


This forced the GPU to run at 90w and not allow power shifting from the CPU. Once I enabled Dynamic boost those power limit drops (down to 400mhz) stopped and everything was smooth sailing

Using the Synch MMIO along with Dynamic Boost back on



Those are my power limits.

I'm still seeing limiting in the power limits (but its not showing in TS) however I am now consistently seeing more than 45w while GPU/CPU loads are occurring.

Thanks everyone for your help
 

UnderGraphicsFX

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Unfortunately dell has locked all bios versions with undervolt protection. 1.0.1 to 1.3 which is the latest are locked. I have to decide now what to do.
There is a way to unlock undervolt/overclocking CPU on Dell laptops or even other brands.

Here is a link to a tutorial:
 
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System Name MSI Vector GP68hx 13VH
Processor 13950hx
Memory 64GB ddr5 4800MHz cas 38
Video Card(s) RTX 4080 (12GB GDDR6)
Storage 2TB Samsung Pro 990 SSD (system) + 1TB stock SSD
Display(s) 1440p 120MHz (external)
Audio Device(s) USB audio Schiit Bifrost multibit DAC (external)
Power Supply 330 watt PSU
Software Windows 11 Home
I can already tell you that it's BIOS locked and there is absolutely nothing you can do. If you go to the top of this thread, you'll be able to see that I already asked this. The only way to get more power, is to downgrade the bios to 105 (for MSI laptops) and then have slightly higher power limit whilst your GPU is in dedicated mode.

Moreover, if you switch to integrated graphics or hybrid mode the CPU power will go up, but since your GPU will be passing via the iGPU you'll be losing on average 10% of your performance.

I tried increasing limits via TS, BIOS wise, with 3 different MSI laptop, all BIOSes you can think of and that's what I found out.

Editing PL1 and PL2 will also not work because you can't change TDP overall anyway, sorry to say this but you're stuck with all that as I am.

I tried going to BIOS and changing these values to go as crazy as 300W (works on Lenovo laptop but not in MSI bios at least in 3080 Ti 12900HX model), but for MSI no luck, MSI is secure and lock down the BIOS just about enough so they don't get RMAs left right and center.

If you wish to edit those settings, buy Lenovo laptop and try, because it may have changed how they handle PL1, PL2 and limits overall now.

For MSI specific BIOS undervolting would also doing the “IMON tweak” bypass the TDP?

(Apologies, if this is discussed elsewhere.) One puts in a 50% offset to TDP, the CPU thinks it’s getting less watts - when it’s not. Max turbo power on an i9 13950hx, for example, is 157 watts. In essence, one is not “increasing” the TDP, rather one is just “reporting” less watts. I am a little new to laptop tuning, also a recovering MacBook Pro fanboy, and am happy with a new Vector with above processor and a 4080. First new computer in almost nine years. Anyway, I would like to reduce temps and fan noise while gaming and streaming; I plan on keeping the laptop mostly plugged in.
 
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System Name Asus G16
Processor i9 13980HX
Motherboard Asus motherboard
Cooling 2 fans
Memory 32gb 4800mhz cl40
Video Card(s) 4080 laptop
Storage 16tb, x2 8tb SSD
Display(s) QHD+ 16:10 (2560x1600, WQXGA) 240hz
Power Supply 330w psu
For MSI specific BIOS undervolting would also doing the “IMON tweak” bypass the TDP?

(Apologies, if this is discussed elsewhere.) One puts in a 50% offset to TDP, the CPU thinks it’s getting less watts - when it’s not. Max turbo power on an i9 13950hx, for example, is 157 watts. In essence, one is not “increasing” the TDP, rather one is just “reporting” less watts. I am a little new to laptop tuning, also a recovering MacBook Pro fanboy, and am happy with a new Vector with above processor and a 4080. First new computer in almost nine years. Anyway, I would like to reduce temps and fan noise while gaming and streaming; I plan on keeping the laptop mostly plugged in.
For MSI laptop you go into the advanced bios and under-volt it that way.

Press left ALT, right control, shift and F2 for the advanced bios.
 

LWouters

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Hello,
I have a PC with an i9-13900k, and I would just like to limit the processor speed: for example, in the Internet profile I would try to limit the processor clock to around 1MHz.
I don't intend to undervolt, just limit the processor clock.
In this case do I just need to change the "Speed Sfhit EPP"? and other options are unchecked? like in the image below?

1696179715808.png
 

unclewebb

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Messages
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I would just like to limit the processor speed
Lowering the Speed Shift Max value in the TPL window used to be the most reliable way to lower the CPU speed.

1696225717541.png


I have not done any Windows 11 or Intel 13th Gen testing. Do some testing to see it this setting still works. Load the CPU with something simple like Cinebench and see what speed the CPU runs at.
 

LWouters

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Lowering the Speed Shift Max value in the TPL window used to be the most reliable way to lower the CPU speed.

View attachment 315902

I have not done any Windows 11 or Intel 13th Gen testing. Do some testing to see it this setting still works. Load the CPU with something simple like Cinebench and see what speed the CPU runs at.
Thanks
 

Intrepidity

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I understand that it is recommended to set "Power Limit 4" to 0 and max out IccMax for core and cache. I don't however fully understand ramifications and possible risks assosiated. What exactly happen when I change these two settings? Is there detailed information anywhere..? Sorry if I just suck at searching. I couldn't find the answers here or elsewhere.

(Increasing IccMax seem to cause less throttling and make the laptop hit the PL1/PL2 limits.)
 
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