Steam's "indiepocalypse"

[Papahyooie]

You can give doses of (your perspective of) reality all you want. But the bottom line is, you're not suggesting any solutions, and you're actively refusing to entertain any solutions. So you're effectively suggesting indies throw up their hands and die. If that's your aim, well done... but I fail to see the value in that at all. And though you continue with your broken record, you've yet to produce anything to back up your claim. Your links that you pointed to as "proof" only show steam sales, and the effects that steams algorithm had on those sales. Once again, you've ignored that point, so I don't hold out hope.

Perhaps the problem with getting lightning to strike is that all the games you have mourned here are relying on Steam and others' to throw them a bone, while the "strikes" are the ones who went out and put up a lightning rod...

My suggestion stands... you can nut up and do something about it, even if it's difficult, or you can cry about it and continue to get rammed by the likes of Steam. Buyers' choice, I suppose.

 

[lexluthermiester]

You can give doses of (your perspective of) reality all you want. But the bottom line is, you're not suggesting any solutions, and you're actively refusing to entertain any solutions. So you're effectively suggesting indies throw up their hands and die. If that's your aim, well done... but I fail to see the value in that at all. And though you continue with your broken record, you've yet to produce anything to back up your claim. Your links that you pointed to as "proof" only show steam sales, and the effects that steams algorithm had on those sales. Once again, you've ignored that point, so I don't hold out hope.

Perhaps the problem with getting lightning to strike is that all the games you have mourned here are relying on Steam and others' to throw them a bone, while the "strikes" are the ones who went out and put up a lightning rod...

My suggestion stands... you can nut up and do something about it, even if it's difficult, or you can cry about it and continue to get rammed by the likes of Steam. Buyers' choice, I suppose.

Can you please use the reply buttons to quote what you're responding to? Otherwise we don't know who you're talking to.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Therein is the problem. Many of the indie devs start asking for money before they have a product that is even near finished. Let's talk about games that are actually finished before we talk about success or failure.

Consortium cost $677,356 CAD to develop.
Consortium: The Tower is projected to cost $2.1 million CAD to develop.
Stellar Overload was projected to cost over $3 million EUR to finish.
Binding of Issac: Rebirth is estimated to have cost roughly $500,000 to develop.
Runner2 is estimated to have cost roughly $700,000 to develop.

See the trend? Indie doesn't mean cheap.

Fun fact: In 2015, the average Steam sales rate was 32,000 copies

But the bottom line is, you're not suggesting any solutions...

Since when was it my job to suggest solutions? I'll give you a hint though: EGS exclusivity contracts are popular for a reason.

...you're actively refusing to entertain any solutions.

Because they've been tried by many indie developers and don't work? I talk to indie developers on a weekly basis.

And though you continue with your broken record, you've yet to produce anything to back up your claim.

Ask and you shall receive.

Your links that you pointed to as "proof" only show steam sales, and the effects that steams algorithm had on those sales.

Are you talking about the OP links? That's because the OP was specifically targeting a change on Steam's platform that caused indie sales to plummet.

Perhaps the problem with getting lightning to strike is that all the games you have mourned here are relying on Steam and others' to throw them a bone, while the "strikes" are the ones who went out and put up a lightning rod...

Since you're apparently all knowing, tell me what that proverbial "lightning rod" was.

 

[Papahyooie]

Since when was it my job to suggest solutions? I'll give you a hint though: EGS exclusivity contracts are popular for a reason.

It's not, but you're actively fighting against those that are. As I said, if solutions are not welcome here, so be it.

Because they've been tried by many indie developers and don't work? I talk to indie developers on a weekly basis.

You keep saying that, but it simply isn't true. You're taking a pedantic stance on what I said... I don't mean that a company should ONLY rely on posting to some reddit thread and hoping "lightning strikes" and they go viral. You're latching onto the "viral" word and refusing to let go... I'm saying that in a world where every human being in your market can be reached (and since we're talking about gamers, they are by nature reachable by internet media) there is absolutely no excuse for saying that you cannot get eyes on your product. And relying on Steam to do it for you has become counter-productive, so DO SOMETHING ELSE! How is that controversial? How is that hard to understand? By saying that "it doesn't work" in response to what I've said here, either you're willfully ignoring my follow on posts in order to argue for some odd reason, or you're implying that no advertising outside of steam and other gaming storefronts works. That is simply asinine. You talk with indie developers on a weekly basis? I work on a software that both directly and indirectly deals with ads, impressions, and conversions on a daily basis. Your indie developer friends need to take a business class. It's not that advertising doesn't work... they're just doing it wrong.

Ask and you shall receive.

Asked several times... Still haven't received...

Are you talking about the OP links? That's because the OP was specifically targeting a change on Steam's platform that caused indie sales to plummet.

YOU suggested that the OP was where to find such information. I said no, that's only steam sales. You never addressed it again until now, despite my mentioning it multiple times. You don't need a good memory for this, you can just scroll back...

Since you're apparently all knowing, tell me what that proverbial "lightning rod" was.

In contrast to what you're suggesting, LITERALLY ANYTHING. Stay with Steam, make no money; do something else, possibly make money. Have some industrial spirit. Have some balls. Do something. Or else just moan about steam.... and make no money.

 

[Eric3988]

So many haters of Valve, bet they would go away if they finally just released HL3

I don't think Steam has a responsibility to push Indy or any games over another. I'm not a fan of the discovery queue either. Ever since they opened up the platform the whole store front page looks bloated to me. I would much rather that the front page only contain games that are on sale and a search function. As for the Epic Game store crap, it's just that crap. Let them compete and do all their exclusives and see how much longer all that Tencent money lasts. I'm all for the developers getting a bigger share of revenue, but I'm interested to see if the market will allow it.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

I'm saying that in a world where every human being in your market can be reached (and since we're talking about gamers, they are by nature reachable by internet media) there is absolutely no excuse for saying that you cannot get eyes on your product.

You would not believe how many times developers asked their supporters to help promote something on Twitch/Facebook/Twitter and the response from the supporters is generally "I don't use those networks," so your assumption is false. Sure, there's some games the sheeple crowd around like Fortnite but go off the beaten path into indie territory, the reach is small.

Eyes on product isn't enough: you need purchases. Purchases require trusted distribution channels.

And relying on Steam to do it for you has become counter-productive, so DO SOMETHING ELSE!

[facepalm.jpg] They do and it doesn't work. Examples: roll-calling publishers, calling friends at publishers, seeking angel investors, crowdfunding campaigns, work-for-hire, going to entertainment expos, merchandising, giving media influencers and journalists keys, etc.

Asked several times... Still haven't received...

Be specific.

YOU suggested that the OP was where to find such information. I said no, that's only steam sales. You never addressed it again until now, despite my mentioning it multiple times. You don't need a good memory for this, you can just scroll back...

It's very rare (if ever) for an Early Access game to be distributed on other platforms because it makes feedback, support, and updating more complicated and time consuming. The only game from the previous list that wasn't distributed by only Steam, I believe, was Godus because they released on iOS and Android as well. So excepting that Godus oddball, Steam sales numbers reflect the entirety of the game sales.

 

[rtwjunkie]

So many haters of Valve, bet they would go away if they finally just released HL3

You’ve got it wrong. In any of these threads, there are no haters of Steam. We are just not Steam cultists. We welcome all venues to buy games from. The more the better.

I just want games to play, and don’t care from whom I buy them, with the exception being if they are also on GOG, then they get my money.

As for Epic’s financial situation, a little research would have saved you from looking silly. Epic’s and Tim’s value is over $5 billion each. Epic is making continued $300 million profits per quarter. The Tencent money is gone. That investment was several years ago. Despite your desires, they are very financially secure.

 

[phanbuey]

I bought "AMID EVIL" yesterday. It was released two days ago. Unfortunately I can't play it as my GFX card is in bits. If your into the old school Hexen/Heretic games, then this is for you.

wow... Thanks for this!!

 

[lexluthermiester]

So many haters of Valve, bet they would go away if they finally just released HL3

Not haters, just people with frustrations.

 

[Roddey]

wow... Thanks for this!!

Dusk is one of the old style games thats really good too.

 

[phanbuey]

Dusk is one of the old style games thats really good too.

nice -- I might check that one out after. I still pop into Hexen 2 from time to time. Something about those hexen 2/ unreal 2 (return to napali) were always insanely enjoyable for me.

 

[Eric3988]

You’ve got it wrong. In any of these threads, there are no haters of Steam. We are just not Steam cultists. We welcome all venues to buy games from. The more the better.

I just want games to play, and don’t care from whom I buy them, with the exception being if they are also on GOG, then they get my money.

As for Epic’s financial situation, a little research would have saved you from looking silly. Epic’s and Tim’s value is over $5 billion each. Epic is making continued $300 million profits per quarter. The Tencent money is gone. That investment was several years ago. Despite your desires, they are very financially secure.

Bro, you look as grumpy as your new avatar, bring back the Roman! Can you define what a "Steam Cultist" is? I know people like to say Gaben this and that, but come on, people don't worship him or the company. Okay, maybe some do, but mostly it's in good humor and PCMR culture. Loosen up!

As for my critique of Epic and Tencent it's largely rhetorical. My point is that they cannot afford to endlessly throw money at their problems. I have expressed hostility at Epic's exclusivity deals before, but don't let that fool you into thinking I have it out for them. Just like how many Americans hate wading into a Wal-mart for something you need, I too respect their role in the marketplace. I will call balls and strikes as I see them, regardless if I personally favor something or not. I tried their platform when they gave away Subnautica and I am grateful for that, but I uninstalled it after I learned the Epic Game Store was snooping around in my Steam installation. I'm sure they "fixed that", but I wasn't a fan of what I saw anyways.

 

[Papahyooie]

You would not believe how many times developers asked their supporters to help promote something on Twitch/Facebook/Twitter and the response from the supporters is generally "I don't use those networks," so your assumption is false. Sure, there's some games the sheeple crowd around like Fortnite but go off the beaten path into indie territory, the reach is small.

Eyes on product isn't enough: you need purchases. Purchases require trusted distribution channels.


[facepalm.jpg] They do and it doesn't work. Examples: roll-calling publishers, calling friends at publishers, seeking angel investors, crowdfunding campaigns, work-for-hire, going to entertainment expos, merchandising, giving media influencers and journalists keys, etc.


Be specific.


It's very rare (if ever) for an Early Access game to be distributed on other platforms because it makes feedback, support, and updating more complicated and time consuming. The only game from the previous list that wasn't distributed by only Steam, I believe, was Godus because they released on iOS and Android as well. So excepting that Godus oddball, Steam sales numbers reflect the entirety of the game sales.

I don't know how else to say it dude. Your level of assumption, along with your narrow imagination is astounding. "We don't use those networks"... What networks? The frikking internet? Yea, they do. You're so narrow-minded that Facebook and Twitter is all you can even think about? I can see why this is going so far over your head. You are literally saying that nothing except steam et al can possibly be profitable, and that's ludicrous. I never said a word about early access, I can't possibly be more specific than asking you to back up your own words... This is going nowhere. You're arguing for the sake of being contraire, and it's tantamount to trolling, so I'm out. I cannot fathom why anyone would possibly think that there is no possibility for innovation or improvement, but if your developer friends share your lack of imagination I can see why they fail.

 

[rtwjunkie]

Bro, you look as grumpy as your new avatar, bring back the Roman! Can you define what a "Steam Cultist" is? I know people like to say Gaben this and that, but come on, people don't worship him or the company. Okay, maybe some do, but mostly it's in good humor and PCMR culture. Loosen up!

I had to seriously laugh! Thanks for that.

I do, however want to answer your question. Have you not noticed all the people since January who are downright angry at any suggestion that Steam is not saving the world? And don’t dare to point out how so many people hated Steam when it first came on the scene.

I did not see the purpose. “Wait, I’m supposed to give up my real games for a digital purchase I may or may not ever get to have if Valve goes out of business? And what is so great about this store that launches my games, because that is just about all it does?” That sums up the reactions of nearly everyone I knew. The cultist forget all that. To them, Steam can do no wrong, and if we aren’t worshipping Steam, we must hate them.

They forget it took Steam several years to get all those obsure features that are more important, apparently, than playing games (which is after all the primary purpose IMHO of a store launcher). If someone else like EGS shows up, they are regarded as the devil incarnate because it started with only a few features. They ignore Epic’s feature plans and the progress reports. In short, they’ve been working hard.

Was stealing Metro:Exodus away from Steam a di#k move? Yes it was. It didn’t stop me and a alot of other people from buying it on EGS, because you know, I’m all about playing games I want to play. But because we do that, we are regarded as any number of adjectives, sone of us getting cursed out. I don’t have time for those reindeer games. I work, and work hard so I can retire early here real soon, and when I want to play, if I play a “stolen” game from EGS it’s because it’s what I want to enjoy. I shouldn’t be forced to play Asteroids from 1983 just to make the cultists happy.

Anywho, just a little sampling. Me? I don’t hate Steam. I just don’t see the point of hating on a new store when it has games I want to play. And for doing so, a number of people have hated on me, even though I am spending my own money how I want to.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

"We don't use those networks"... What networks?

Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, and Twitch.

I never said a word about early access, I can't possibly be more specific than asking you to back up your own words...

I'm not going to edit all of my posts in this thread adding links when you can't even tell me what specifically you want details on. I'm 98% confident that I've said nothing in this thread that I can't back up. The only issue to providing evidence is some of it was said to me in confidence so I would have to get permission to pass it on.

I cannot fathom why anyone would possibly think that there is no possibility for innovation or improvement...

I never said that. What I did say is that is generally out of the reach and scope of what an indie can do on its own. Money/time for indies is usually ridiculously tight.

I had to seriously laugh! Thanks for that.

I do, however want to answer your question. Have you not noticed all the people since January who are downright angry at any suggestion that Steam is not saving the world? And don’t dare to point out how so many people hated Steam when it first came on the scene.

I did not see the purpose. “Wait, I’m supposed to give up my real games for a digital purchase I may or may not ever get to have if Valve goes out of business? And what is so great about this store that launches my games, because that is just about all it does?” That sums up the reactions of nearly everyone I knew. The cultist forget all that. To them, Steam can do no wrong, and if we aren’t worshipping Steam, we must hate them.

They forget it took Steam several years to get all those obsure features that are more important, apparently, than playing games (which is after all the primary purpose IMHO of a store launcher). If someone else like EGS shows up, they are regarded as the devil incarnate because it started with only a few features. They ignore Epic’s feature plans and the progress reports. In short, they’ve been working hard.

Was stealing Metro:Exodus away from Steam a di#k move? Yes it was. It didn’t stop me and a alot of other people from buying it on EGS, because you know, I’m all about playing games I want to play. But because we do that, we are regarded as any number of adjectives, sone of us getting cursed out. I don’t have time for those reindeer games. I work, and work hard so I can retire early here real soon, and when I want to play, if I play a “stolen” game from EGS it’s because it’s what I want to enjoy. I shouldn’t be forced to play Asteroids from 1983 just to make the cultists happy.

Anywho, just a little sampling. Me? I don’t hate Steam. I just don’t see the point of hating on a new store when it has games I want to play. And for doing so, a number of people have hated on me, for spending my own money how I want to.

First game I bought on Steam was Terraria On May 29, 2011. It was Steam exclusive.
Second game I bought on Steam was Deus Ex: Human Revolution + all DLCs on Februrary 23, 2012. It was on sale for a price I couldn't refuse. That's when the flood gates opened: I was making purchases almost monthly after DXHR because of sales and pretty much quit buying retail games.

And sales are up to the discretion of the publisher. Square Enix made me a regular customer at Steam--nothing Steam by itself did.

 

[trparky]

We don't use those networks

No, he's talking about the likes of Facebook and Twitter!!! I personally avoid Fakebook like the damn black plague itself! I will not support that bloodsucking jackass named Mark Zuckerborg. Not after all of the privacy scandals and him unwilling to fix his shit site up. And I'm not the only one who thinks this way, a lot of people are walking away from social media because basically, it means you have to give up your privacy to do so. Fakebook could die tomorrow and I wouldn't shed a single tear; in fact I'd probably dance a jig.

 

[Papahyooie]

No, he's talking about the likes of Facebook and Twitter!!! I personally avoid Fakebook like the damn black plague itself! I will not support that bloodsucking jackass named Mark Zuckerborg. Not after all of the privacy scandals and him unwilling to fix his shit site up. And I'm not the only one who thinks this way, a lot of people are walking away from social media because basically, it means you have to give up your privacy to do so. Fakebook could die tomorrow and I wouldn't shed a single tear; in fact I'd probably dance a jig.

Fair enough... but I'M the one who suggested people use other avenues and never said a word about any of those. He can't arbitrarily put limits on MY suggestion, and expect that to be an argument lol. That's not how that works. I'm talking about the entirety of a technology enabled world, enabling access to customers better than ever before in the history of mankind. If Facebook and Twitter aren't serving you, don't use those either. My suggestion is to forge your own way, so to refute that by saying that Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, and Twitch don't work is the very definition of missing the point.

 

[trparky]

Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, and Twitch don't work

Those sites may work fine for people who don't give a crap about their privacy but those of us who do, avoid those sites like the plague. I've not touched Fakebook in over a year, I still have my account there but I may very well delete it because the less Mark "asshole" Zuckerborg and company know about me the more privacy I have.

The bad part is, as more and more users learn about all the bad things that Fakebook and Twitter have done (and believe me, they will!) and how much they've destroyed their privacy, the more users will walk away from those platforms thus rendering the use of those services no longer a viable method of spreading your indie game. Hopefully the death of Fakebook will come soon, I can't f***ing stand that site. Zuckerborg can go to hell for all I care.

 

[Papahyooie]

Those sites may work fine for people who don't give a crap about their privacy but those of us who do, avoid those sites like the plague. I've not touched Fakebook in over a year, I still have my account there but I may very well delete it because the less Mark "asshole" Zuckerborg and company know about me the more privacy I have.

The bad part is, as more and more users learn about all the bad things that Fakebook and Twitter have done (and believe me, they will!) and how much they've destroyed their privacy, the more users will walk away from those platforms thus rendering the use of those services no longer a viable method of spreading your indie game. Hopefully the death of Fakebook will come soon, I can't f***ing stand that site. Zuckerborg can go to hell for all I care.

I agree with everything you're saying... but what you're not getting is that that is 100% irrelevant to my point lol. I am not telling anyone to use Facebook, or any other specific service for anything! Ford is the one who suggested those services don't work for indie devs, when I didn't suggest them in the slightest. Therefore, it has nothing to do with me. I couldn't care less whether you or anyone else uses Facebook or any other service. My ONLY point here, is that if Steam, or any other service isn't serving you, there are a myriad of other ways to go about it in our modern world. To suggest that Facebook (or any other service) is bad, doesn't work, violates privacy, etc... is to COMPLETELY miss my point!

 

[lexluthermiester]

Those sites may work fine for people who don't give a crap about their privacy but those of us who do, avoid those sites like the plague.

Exactly.

I've not touched Fakebook in over a year,

4 years here. Deleted it completely, no regrets.

The thing is, using social media without inputting personal info can be very useful. Promoting anything is really easy and can spread like wildfire if you have something great or reach the right audience. For indie games, it's still a great resource.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Just saw a news post from a game that mentions the changes:

Steam :: Rising World :: The Future of Rising World

Dear Community! It's about time to let you know what's currently going on, and what the future of Rising World will probably look like

steamcommunity.com

Some of you may remember that we mentioned some traffic changes on Steam last October. Valve changed the algorithm that decides which games are promoted and which are not. There aren't many details known about how the algorithm works exactly, but it seems that the algorithm is mostly favoring top-sellers now - there are lots of other serious indie developers out there who were negatively affected by the algorithm change.

We lost a lot of our visibility "over night" and therefore our game sells a lot worse than before. Of course it's up to Valve to decide what's best for the store, but this change makes it much harder for us to survive - especially in combination with the introduction of Steam Direct in 2017.

More info on Steam Direct:

What Is Steam Direct, and How Is It Different from Greenlight?

Steam Greenlight was a grand experiment in support for independent PC game developers: a cheap and easy way for creators to get access to the world's biggest game distribution platform.

www.howtogeek.com

Another developer I'm in frequent contact with, in response to that same quote, said: "we also noticed a drop at that moment."
I asked "any recovery since then?" Mostly asked because Steam said they made some changes at the end of 2018. He responded "not really, though sales always see a bit of a spike."

 

[Vayra86]

Fair enough... but I'M the one who suggested people use other avenues and never said a word about any of those. He can't arbitrarily put limits on MY suggestion, and expect that to be an argument lol. That's not how that works. I'm talking about the entirety of a technology enabled world, enabling access to customers better than ever before in the history of mankind. If Facebook and Twitter aren't serving you, don't use those either. My suggestion is to forge your own way, so to refute that by saying that Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, and Twitch don't work is the very definition of missing the point.

The key point being, 'what' other things? @FordGT90Concept pointed out a lot of options and attempts earlier, and you seem oblivious to it and what you really say is: 'so try more other things! Why is it so hard to be creative and think out of the box?'

I would like to turn the question around; what other things are you thinking about? What is that brilliant knowledge you are hiding from the world? All these companies gather whatever knowledge they can about effective marketing and its a LOT more than just 'internet'. They know it exists and has reach.

But Steam has a reach that is literally unmatched for PC gaming. And thát is the point. It simply is a distribution monopolist in the hearts and minds of a LOT of people - those are the people getting all worked up about their game getting 'stolen' from them. You need a wrecking ball's worth of marketing to penetrate that and it may or may not work on each individual. The current wrecking ball is EGS... thát was out of the box thinking, right there.

The reality is, that we truly do need more digital distributors on a much more equal footing. Real competition on that market is going to benefit us as gamers. Right now Steam only competes with itself, and in a small degree with GOG (although its more that GOG targets a specific subgroup of gamers), in terms of featureset and terms & conditions. EGS is peeking around the corner with no real substantial featureset, but different content. They're like a local streaming business doing on-demand and competing with Netflix with half-broken software. They use unique content to catch our attention, and the content itself gets supported with funds that would otherwise go to 'more marketing' to cram even more crap onto Steam's crowded shelves. Money well spent, IMO - better than on yet another fruitless marketing push, because really, no matter what you think of, we have information overload as it is.

Another striking similarity to drive the point home, is to compare Steam with Google. It runs into the exact same issues - too much content to show to a user and it results in filter bubble algorithms that inevitably fail to serve us best. Its a true paradox at work. The only solution is to target customers 'at the door' and 'do more with less'. GOG and EGS do that - and the key point is that they are all distribution channels, and they dó control the market and sales volumes in the end. And for us customers, its about time we learned that we need more than one way to look at what the internet has to offer; a different search engine, and different stores.

Thát is a real solution right there. Fighting marketing with more marketing certainly is not.

 

[Papahyooie]

The key point being, 'what' other things? @FordGT90Concept pointed out a lot of options and attempts earlier, and you seem oblivious to it and what you really say is: 'so try more other things! Why is it so hard to be creative and think out of the box?'

I would like to turn the question around; what other things are you thinking about? What is that brilliant knowledge you are hiding from the world? All these companies gather whatever knowledge they can about effective marketing and its a LOT more than just 'internet'. They know it exists and has reach.

But Steam has a reach that is literally unmatched for PC gaming. And thát is the point. It simply is a distribution monopolist in the hearts and minds of a LOT of people - those are the people getting all worked up about their game getting 'stolen' from them. You need a wrecking ball's worth of marketing to penetrate that and it may or may not work on each individual. The current wrecking ball is EGS... thát was out of the box thinking, right there.

The reality is, that we truly do need more digital distributors on a much more equal footing. Real competition on that market is going to benefit us as gamers. Right now Steam only competes with itself, and in a small degree with GOG (although its more that GOG targets a specific subgroup of gamers), in terms of featureset and terms & conditions. EGS is peeking around the corner with no real substantial featureset, but different content. They're like a local streaming business doing on-demand and competing with Netflix with half-broken software. They use unique content to catch our attention, and the content itself gets supported with funds that would otherwise go to 'more marketing' to cram even more crap onto Steam's crowded shelves. Money well spent, IMO - better than on yet another fruitless marketing push, because really, no matter what you think of, we have information overload as it is.

Another striking similarity to drive the point home, is to compare Steam with Google. It runs into the exact same issues - too much content to show to a user and it results in filter bubble algorithms that inevitably fail to serve us best. Its a true paradox at work. The only solution is to target customers 'at the door' and 'do more with less'. GOG and EGS do that - and the key point is that they are all distribution channels, and they dó control the market and sales volumes in the end. And for us customers, its about time we learned that we need more than one way to look at what the internet has to offer; a different search engine, and different stores.

Thát is a real solution right there. Fighting marketing with more marketing certainly is not.

To suggest a specific solution would be directly antithetical to my point.

 

[Vayra86]

To suggest a specific solution would be directly antithetical to my point.

That is one interpretation, but mine is, without a useful example, your point simply doesn't stand...

 

[INSTG8R]

That is one interpretation, but mine is, without a useful example, your point simply doesn't stand...

Precisely, yes Ford has no solid solutions, frankly I don’t either other than Steam doing a big cull of all the shovelware they let run wild and maybe let legit indies to get back in view.
But Papahyooie the onus is on you to provide examples of outside of the box ideas you insist someone else come up with.