Ummm apple software isn't perfect... it crashes and burns just like windows and also the UI is very dated looking now and hasn't changed and not many new features have been added to the OS for years.... From Vista era tons of new features have been added to windows... but just a handful have been added to OSX. Apple is a stagnant company.

FourstaffIts Europe, if cat hair was found in your office toilet the entire block will be sealed and marked for Hazmat squad.

This is humorous but true.
Should have seen the panic when they saw blood on one of the fire door windows :roll:

Economics

I don't think anyone is trying to evangelize anything. It's a matter of economics. Any contract to do anything IT related is at least $300 per hour(normally ~$500/hr) on what amount of estimated work. Do these people care about saving a few thousand dollars on hardware? absolutely not! Considering projects are often well above the $1million mark and often tens of millions. They just want the hardware immediately in a whole package and it has to work or they lose time. Their earnings per hour is greater than time spent on saving money.

A regular pc enthusiasts wants the best bang for buck. His opinion is different. His view of $300 3770k = great value and faster than $800 xeon whatever. However he is not getting $300-1000 per hour on a contract. and does not need his hardware to work perfectly if it saves him 50% to build/fix everything himself.

This is a matter of efficiency. One person is better at making more money while another does so by saving. There's very few people/businesses that can do both because they will have statisticians that will draw them a chart showing them their production possibility curves, maximum profit/revenue/net income. Saving money cost money since you have to hire someone to do that. For businesses, normally reaching maximum revenue first is more important than reducing expense. Therefore, maximizing production(eg. reducing downtime) is usually more important than cost savings.

.......first Apple i'd ever consider

remixedcatUmmm apple software isn't perfect... it crashes and burns just like windows and also the UI is very dated looking now and hasn't changed and not many new features have been added to the OS for years.... From Vista era tons of new features have been added to windows... but just a handful have been added to OSX. Apple is a stagnant company.

A lot of people overlook this. OSX is getting pretty old, Apple has basically ignored their PC lines since they make so much god damn money off iPhones and iPads these days. OSX has gotten almost no new functionality in the past 2-3 years.

tokyoduongThis is a matter of efficiency. One person is better at making more money while another does so by saving. There's very few people/businesses that can do both because they will have statisticians that will draw them a chart showing them their production possibility curves, maximum profit/revenue/net income. Saving money cost money since you have to hire someone to do that. For businesses, normally reaching maximum revenue first is more important than reducing expense. Therefore, maximizing production(eg. reducing downtime) is usually more important than cost savings.

That's why I loved being an admin at a couple small businesses (25 - 80 employees) - was able to have my cake and eat it too. Workstations and servers much nicer than we needed because we built them in-house. No analyst naysayer because you don't argue with the department that brings in 1/3rd of the company's revenue :P

FourstaffI can't believe you manage to ignore the fact that Mac Pro severely needs an update right now :eek:

I can't believe you managed to ignore it cost more while needing an update...
hence the premium is extraordinarily high.

I really don't see a price decrease with the advent of IB-E, I only see an increase.
So the competitiveness will not necessarily increase with the performance.
That said... IB-E is going to be fun...

I also don't run a 1155 as a daily driver... its a cute platform and great for gamers... but I prefer the server workstation class.
I run an E5-2680, So I am going to enjoy when those chips come out... going from 8 to 12 cores in the same tdp... mmmm.

PatriotI can't believe you managed to ignore it cost more while needing an update...
hence the premium is extraordinarily high.

No one in their right mind will buy Mac Pro without waiting for an upgrade: there is no saving grace at its current state. We don't know anything about the upgrade yet, I will refrain from recommending it until I see how the pricing goes.

BarbaricSoulHuh? I'm looking at prices now. I can either get a MacPro with a 3.2ghz, 8 mb cache, 1st gen i7, 6 gig RAM, and a HD5770 for $2500 or a Dell Alienware X51 with a 3770, 8gigs of RAM, and a GTX 660 for $1150. The premium is rediculous.

img.techpowerup.org/130207/apple.jpg



img.techpowerup.org/130207/Dell.jpg

$250 for a 2TB HDD
$500 to upgrade from 3.2GHz to 3.33GHz
$975 for 32GB RAM

Holy shit.

Edit: Disregard the $500, just noticed it also upgrades from 4 to 6 cores

FourstaffNo one in their right mind will buy Mac Pro without waiting for an upgrade: there is no saving grace at its current state. We don't know anything about the upgrade yet, I will refrain from recommending it until I see how the pricing goes.

Fair enough.
:toast:

Depth$250 for a 2TB HDD
$500 to upgrade from 3.2GHz to 3.33GHz
$975 for 32GB RAM

Holy shit.

Edit: Disregard the $500, just noticed it also upgrades from 4 to 6 cores

That is ridiculous yes, that is something I would have my IT staff do. this is where cost savings > lost productivity. If I was in a higher executive position, a few thousands in IT expense is still much less than my 1-2 hr of down time.

Its been speculated for a while now that Apple would update the Mac Pro using Ivy Bridge-EP Xeons.

The Mac Pro has been neglected but you'll also notice that the update cycle for the iMac, while not as bad, was poor too. All while the iPad has had its last update within about ~6 month (not including the inclusion of the 128GB iPad) so it would seem the larger computer hardware is simply falling out of favor with Apple.

Still, my question is a simple one of continuity. The reason that Sandy Bridge-E / EP doesn't have Intel Thunderbolt support is because an integrated Intel video subsystem (iGPU) is a requirement of the spec. This is why the lower-end Z77 / LGA1155 platform has Thunderbolt support and the higher-end professional / Pro-consumer X79 / C606 LGA2011 platform does not.

It was my understanding that there would be no new chipset for Ivy Bridge-E / EP so I don't see how Apple could add Thunderbolt or USB 3.0 on a Mac Pro unless some odd things happened. Such as Apple supporting third party USB 3.0 chipsets and or Intel dropping the Intel iGPU requirement for Thunderbolt. Either that or there will be a new chipset for Ivy Bridge-E / EP. There is also the possibility that there simply wont be USB 3.0 or Thunderbolt support on new Mac Pro models.

There are other possibilities too I guess.

Everybody knows that Apple computers are overpriced for the components you get, can we just move on from the subject already? You have to think of apple computers as more pieces of industrial design that happen to also be computers. Sure a Mac Pro is going to cost more than a comparable Dell desktop. That's like saying a diet of Chicken and broccoli is better for you then Twinkies and Cheetos. Everybody knows it. Sure you could get a more powerful Dell for cheaper...but then you'd have a dell. You have to think of things from a design stand-point, some people happen to like good clean minimalist design, some people believe form before function, and some people have the extra cash to afford it. When you walk in to an art gallery or some place that's obviously been done by an interior designer, the furniture looks uncomfortable as hell but it looks nice. A Lexus doesn't have a magical engine that poops rainbows and sunshine any more then a toyota. If anything you know that when you buy a macbook or imac, they retain there resell value.

sand0oskiEverybody knows that Apple computers are overpriced for the components you get, can we just move on from the subject already? You have to think of apple computers as more pieces of industrial design that happen to also be computers. Sure a Mac Pro is going to cost more than a comparable Dell desktop. That's like saying a diet of Chicken and broccoli is better for you then Twinkies and Cheetos. Everybody knows it. Sure you could get a more powerful Dell for cheaper...but then you'd have a dell. You have to think of things from a design stand-point, some people happen to like good clean minimalist design, some people believe form before function, and some people have the extra cash to afford it. When you walk in to an art gallery or some place that's obviously been done by an interior designer, the furniture looks uncomfortable as hell but it looks nice. A Lexus doesn't have a magical engine that poops rainbows and sunshine any more then a toyota. If anything you know that when you buy a macbook or imac, they retain there resell value.

but they are generally not when compared to actual counterparts. A bit more expensive, but its not outrageous (maybe apart from the upgrades). This goes for pretty much everything they do with the possible exception of the Mac Mini.

GalasITT:
Apple haters trying to evangelize custom building.


The #1 reason for a company paying premium for a Mac Pro, is SOFTWARE, not hardware.
Anyway, most companies are buying minis instead. Much better performance/price ratio.

Software? Maybe some Audio stuff but that's about it. Everything else runs just fine on a Windows platform. As a matter of fact Apple just got Photoshop 64-bit after the PC has been enjoying it for years.

GalasITT:
Apple haters trying to evangelize custom building.


The #1 reason for a company paying premium for a Mac Pro, is SOFTWARE, not hardware.
Anyway, most companies are buying minis instead. Much better performance/price ratio.

That and the Minis would be cheaper to replace. My bro in law has just about had it with Apple. He's had to replace his Pro every couple years now. The things keep breaking down. Which I've been speculating for years now that Apple has lost a lot of quality, at least in the Mac area. They've been cutting corners and getting by with it by keeping looks fashionable. Using their past reputation of longevity to keep things going. Just don't think they care about Macs anymore.

So in the end...really gotta ask if that massive premium is worth it for OSX. All your getting is a cheaply built PC with server processors.

NC37That and the Minis would be cheaper to replace. My bro in law has just about had it with Apple. He's had to replace his Pro every couple years now. The things keep breaking down. Which I've been speculating for years now that Apple has lost a lot of quality, at least in the Mac area. They've been cutting corners and getting by with it by keeping looks fashionable. Using their past reputation of longevity to keep things going. Just don't think they care about Macs anymore.

So in the end...really gotta ask if that massive premium is worth it for OSX. All your getting is a cheaply built PC with server processors.

Ive been saying that for a while now. The quality of the build just isn't what it used to be in the Quicksilver/Mirror door days. I STILL HAVE a working Quicksilver. I have gone through 3 Intel iMacs.

xenocideA lot of people overlook this. OSX is getting pretty old, Apple has basically ignored their PC lines since they make so much god damn money off iPhones and iPads these days. OSX has gotten almost no new functionality in the past 2-3 years.

What new functionality does OS X need? A metro interface? :laugh:

Both Mac OS X and Windows are both so good these days, that it's really become hard for Apple and Microsoft to improve them. That's rather obvious to lot of us.

TheMailMan78Ive been saying that for a while now. The quality of the build just isn't what it used to be in the Quicksilver/Mirror door days. I STILL HAVE a working Quicksilver. I have gone through 3 Intel iMacs.

I can't say much about Mac desktops. I can only attest to the Macbook pros solid chassis. I don't think I've found a better built laptop in those form factor. The premium is a bit too high though. For 2k+, I think I would just buy an ugly Sager super laptop that can do everything + replace my desktop.

tokyoduongI can't say much about Mac desktops. I can only attest to the Macbook pros solid chassis. I don't think I've found a better built laptop in those form factor. The premium is a bit too high though. For 2k+, I think I would just buy an ugly Sager super laptop that can do everything + replace my desktop.

Then you have never used a high end Levono.

TheMailMan78Then you have never used a high end Lenovo.

IBM had a really good thing going on with the thinkpads back in the day, but I haven't seen one in quite a while so I can't comment on them now.

3870x2IBM had a really good thing going on with the thinkpads back in the day, but I haven't seen one in quite a while so I can't comment on them now.

Yeah those old IBM's were tanks.

Meh,....

I don't really need a system that's built like a tank. I'm not driving it into battle,....

And for the record I have seen some fairly beaten-up Macs. I don't know what some people are using these things for but I think they are using them "wrong" if build quality is that kind of issue. They need to stop hammering out a new front deck and back porch with their laptops / desktops as a blunt instrument,....

Or something,....

lol at all of the tpuers talking about "wasting" money. please, most of you spend WAY too much money on your rigs just so you can play video games. give me a break.