The idea behind Mantle is having a more personalized programming approach to the underlying hardware. This yields major performance and stability gains.
The other bonus is that since Mantle is low-mid level, and since a Mantle driver compiles to GCN machine code, You can use the API to write code that runs on both consoles and Radeon PCs, which makes cross-platform game development a much easier task.

I'm personally very excited about it. It will allow to produce much better games visuals and mechanics wise. Utilizing the vector processors or the GCN CUs to process much complex physics without having to move data back and forth between the CPU and GPU, going through the overhead of a high-level API and the underlying OS, along with shared memory access between the CPU and GPU can make a massive impact on the realism aspect of games.

FrustratedGarrettOh, we have an Nvidia troll from techreport here! Tim Sweeny, in an Nivida conference, will not tell you that using Mantle, you can write code that runs on both the two new consoles and half the PC with very little to no modification of the code. It makes developing cross-platform games a breeze, and everyone benefits from this except for Nvidia, and in a way Microsoft that loves exclusives, as they call them on their XBOX.

Correction: The majority of crappy games today use UT3 and the majority of the upcoming crappy games will be using UT4.

We have major game studios endorsing Mantle. So we're going to have over half the big engines developed today supporting Mantle.

lol. Listen to the smarter ones. MxPhenom 216 said it won't make game better. :ohwell: Also guess what engine Eidos using for Thief.

P.S. there is so many "crappy" games based on UE3 because it's easy to license. You don't need to join AMD's Red Army.

sweetSeriously, please read my post again. Mantle transform PC to a console similar machine, that is the point.

What's the point? You still will have to buy R9 300, 400.. because your GPU with Mantle won't work for 5 years like X360 or PS3.

So, with mantle being a "close to metal", and with AMD saying its "open", so that multiple players can make hardware that supports it.

Could this ultimately ("best case scenario"(for AMD atleast)) become something similar to x86 or ARM? where multiple(if for instance NVidia survives and makes their arch compatible) vendors make hardware that can run this code? This then in the end benefiting the industry as a whole since there will be a better optimised codepath which everyone can use?

ValdezI think Mantle is the best option (for you, if you're using AMD). And there should be a nVidia and an Intel API along with Mantle for the best experience for the user (for you).

Nvidia and Intel cannot do the same bcoz they don't have anything like GCN incl Console wins (Big one) :rockout:

MxPhenom 216I still don't understand the hype behind Mantle. If it only makes games run better, but doesn't make better games I don't care even the slightest bit.

It is said, It will do both and more :D

RecusWhat's the point? You still will have to buy R9 300, 400.. because your GPU with Mantle won't work for 5 years like X360 or PS3.

As long as AMD keep using GCN, it will keep on going. I would say the future consoles could also be GCN, since all games eventually will be Mantle/GCN optimized and the cross-platform is a big factor :respect:

you know guys what mantle remembers me ? s3 savage 4 textures, I remember playing unreal with the texture pack for savage and man what a diferecence, hope mantle goes beyond a couple of games :)

MxPhenom 216I still don't understand the hype behind Mantle. If it only makes games run better, but doesn't make better games I don't care even the slightest bit.

btarunrCloud Imperium Games is currently developing "Star Citizen," the highly anticipated, crowd-funded PC space simulator from legendary game designer Chris Roberts.
"AMD's Mantle will allow us to extract more performance from an AMD Radeon GPU than any other graphics API," said Chris Roberts, CEO, Cloud Imperium Games. "Mantle is vitally important for a game like Star Citizen, which is being designed with the need for massive GPU horsepower. With Mantle, our team can spend more time achieving our perfect artistic vision, and less time worrying about whether or not today's gaming hardware will be ready to deliver it."

Well, MxPhenom... There's a developer saying that it is going to lead to a better game. You should read an article before commenting on it. ;) However, I do understand the reluctance with new things.

birdieA proprietary 3D rendering API just shouldn't exist - if, for instance, AMD bankrupts all those Mantle "powered" games won't run anywhere else ever again.

Is that true? So you are saying when Mantle gets added to BF4, that people with Nvidia cards suddenly won't be able to play the games because they cannot use Mantle? :slap:

No sir. Just not. It does not work that way. :)

Is it even proprietary? If it is, is it because the company using it has it locked down, or is it the reluctance of the other company to use it?

erockerIs it even proprietary? If it is, is it because the company using it has it locked down, or is it the reluctance of the other company to use it?

:rockout:

You are spot on. It is an OPEN API that anyone, including Nvidia can get in on the party (not that they will of course).

My sarcasm in the post above may not have translated... that statement he made was absolutely off the chain false.

EarthDog:rockout:

You are spot on. It is an OPEN API that anyone, including Nvidia can get in on the party (not that they will of course).

My sarcasm in the post above may not have translated... that statement he made was absolutely off the chain false.

Haven't AMD already confirmed it only works with GCN architecture, Thus Nvidia couldn't use it on their hardware

erockerWell, MxPhenom... There's a developer saying that it is going to lead to a better game. You should read an article before commenting on it. ;) However, I do understand the reluctance with new things.

Better looking game != Better game :p

MxPhenom 216Haven't AMD already confirmed it only works with GCN architecture, Thus Nvidia couldn't use it on their hardware

The way I'm reading it: community.amd.com/community/amd-blogs/amd-gaming/blog/2013/10/17/the-four-core-principles-of-amd-s-mantle

..is that Nvidia would need to write a driver to use mantle for their own GPU's. I don't think this should be a problem considering Nvidia has claimed to be a "software company" in the past. I also don't see AMD writing drivers for Nvidia either... There's a joke in there somewhere :laugh:

MxPhenom 216Better looking game != Better game

I fail to see how something that is dealing with graphics and performance will make someone make a game better other than with graphics and performance. I mean... sure. It would be miraculous if some magical software existed that could make a game "more fun"?

MxPhenom 216Haven't AMD already confirmed it only works with GCN architecture, Thus Nvidia couldn't use it on their hardware

Correct, but as erocker already found and posted... just takes writing for it on their side. It is not hardware specific, it is an API which can use any hardware when the drivers are coded for it (for the most part).

Re:

birdieCall me a fanatic, but I want Mantle to die ASAP.

This is like saying you want your graphic cards to have less Frame Rate performance and crappier graphics.

In another point of view, anybody could argue that since AMD is coming out with Mantle, you wouldn't support it. On the other hand, if NVidia came out with the idea first, you'd probably be in support of the new low-level API.

birdieA proprietary 3D rendering API just shouldn't exist - if, for instance, AMD bankrupts all those Mantle "powered" games won't run anywhere else ever again.

1. AMD Mantle isn't proprietary.
2. Since NVidia can use OpenGL/CL like AMD, NVidia can use AMD Mantle.
3. AMD Graphic Cards use GCN, NVidia uses CUDA. This is the software for the hardware. To some, it's a fancy word or gimmick. For others, it's an approach for the hardware and software languages to communicate more efficiently. Less time to process information between hardware and software equates to higher performance. Improve the process information being re-translated between GCN and Direcompute, or Cuda to D3D aka NVAPI.dll. AMD Mantle is more optimized for the GCN in that sense, and it will allow PC Games to be optimized in the same way. This is part of the reason why the draw calls will go up by a factor of 9 with the GCN Architecture.

birdieEven though Glide didn't have enough time to live, we still a whole lot of games you won't be able to run because Glide is not supported.

3dFX GLIDE is dead, for lack of a better term, thanks to NVidia. If NVidia wanted to use it, or something similar, they would have just integrated GLIDE, rename it, and bank $$$ off it. I suspect MS didn't want this, and NVidia got paid not to use it. So D3D reigns as the law of the land besides OpenGL for a while.

Jack1nBoth XBO and PS4 will not support mantle,XBO will be DX 11.2 and PS4 will be Open GL.

XBone and PS4 have AMD Jaguar Cores. Basically, both of them have the same APU. It's similar to the Bobcat AMD APUs, but XBone Jaguar Cores are actually the left-over rejects that didn't become full Jaguar Cores. Both of them have the same GPU make up, and with that, they both use the same D3D APIs. Just that XBone can use D3D11.2, PS4 can use D3D11.1 if I am not mistaken. PS4 could probably use D3D11.2, on a hardware level, since I suspect it will use hUMA, but Sony probably opted not to use it. It could be for competition reasons with MS, and PS4 won't utilize it because the computing language isn't there.

AMD Mantle allows better porting of Consoles games to the PC, and that's pretty much it. In a way, it also means that there is less difficulty programming console games two work on the PC. Especially since the games will probably be more dependent on the AMD GCN then the CPU.

MxPhenom 216I still don't understand the hype behind Mantle. If it only makes games run better, but doesn't make better games I don't care even the slightest bit.

The hype behind AMD Mantle is that your FPS is going to go up. It won't go up because you got a new graphic card. It's going up because the low-level API is optimizing the AMD GPU more efficiently. Lets say in the perfect situation, you do experience 9x more draw calls. That means that the time it takes to utilizes the draw calls, goes down. Frames would be produced faster, because less time is needed to produce those frames. What happens is this. AMD Mantle will be optimized with the AMD GCN because of the way it processing the information and languages between the Core and the API.

Think of it from another point of view. What's so special about each new generation of graphic card that's released by AMD and NVidia. Performance. Performance goes up by roughly 15% a generation. Transistor count and frequencies go up. The processing work requires less and less time. This equates to FPS going up. So, work needed to accomplish the same task as the previous generations requires less time. The GPU can process the same task faster with more transistors.

If the time it takes to produce frames goes down, you can add in more things, more features to enhance the game-play with the engine. Add in more realism, add in more improved texture qualities. Push in-game rag-doll physics because it won't drop the FPS performance by much. Simply, AMD Mantle is a means for AMD to address an issue: Their GPUs aren't working efficiently enough to push better performance with the current situation. It's probably because the APIs don't take full use of the GPU's hardware capacity. So the low-level API is a means to correct that little problem with AMD Graphic Cards. AMD Mantle will be a supporting API besides D3D and OpenGL. It's like asking, would you want a Diablo Lambo driving at 20 mph, and you're putting the pedal to the floor--the transmission isn't working properly. No you wouldn't. It's holding the Diablo Lambo from performing at it's highest peak like the AMD GPU. So the question becomes, do you want AMD Mantle to fix that issue for the Diablo Lambo aka the AMD GPU... Do you want the AMD GPU to run faster so it could spits out frames quicker?

erockerThe way I'm reading it: community.amd.com/community/amd-blogs/amd-gaming/blog/2013/10/17/the-four-core-principles-of-amd-s-mantle

..is that Nvidia would need to write a driver to use mantle for their own GPU's.

EarthDogIt is not hardware specific, it is an API which can use any hardware when the drivers are coded for it (for the most part).

This I did not know. I think most folk assumed given what AMD said about it initially was that it would require GCN architecture. If what you say is true then that's fab. :rockout:

All we need is for Nvidia and AMD to actually fucking co-operate on something for once and we'll all be so much better off for it. I'll still buy Nvidia because I'm an idiot that only buys expensive hardware and someone else will buy AMD because they need a new hairdryer.

j/k people......

But really, it's like Apple v Samsung - just co-operate you money whoring bastards.

If it's an open api and both AMD and Nvidia support it, I would really like to see future gaming benchmarks comparing it to DirectX/OpenGL/etc versions.

I'm all for squeezing more juice out of those GPUs.

Even if Kepler might not support it (a bit hard to believe tho, GPGPUs are very complex (and flexible) beasts to begin with...), Maxwell, or at the very least, Volta, should...
Didn't AMD state that Mantle will be AMD GPUs exclusive, no matter what, for it's first year, anyway? Makes sense, AMD need that bigger market share bad... we all do. You can't expect a competing corporate entity to be up-to-snuff every time and always have the money and power to respond to everything... when they're consistently the underdogs...

MxPhenom 216I still don't understand the hype behind Mantle. If it only makes games run better, but doesn't make better games I don't care even the slightest bit.

So... I'm guessing you're pushing a quad TITAN build or something, if performance is not a issue to you. Otherwise, here, in the real world, it is. More performance = more people playing the game like it should, more people enjoying it = more sales/less frustration, more sales = better PC games/better games overall, better PC games = more PC gaming market, more PC gaming market = more PC-centric games or exclusives... err... need I go on?

Battlefield 4 is a prime example of this. If it can hit 120fps in Mantle maxed or w/ 2xAA, on a single R9 290X... I mean, shit... I'm game for that faster than you can say "boom headshot". Sweet graphics, big player base, competitive and casual side, 120fps@120hz at launch on a single GPU (and not 2 years later like for BF3, w/ a CF/SLI rig... and smoothness issues), that right there is a full blown win.

FrustratedGarrettOh, we have an Nvidia troll from techreport here! Tim Sweeny, in an Nivida conference, will not tell you that using Mantle, you can write code that runs on both the two new consoles and half the PC with very little to no modification of the code. It makes developing cross-platform games a breeze, and everyone benefits from this except for Nvidia, and in a way Microsoft that loves exclusives, as they call them on their XBOX.

Correction: The majority of crappy games today use UT3 and the majority of the upcoming crappy games will be using UT4.

We have major game studios endorsing Mantle. So we're going to have over half the big engines developed today supporting Mantle.

Wow, your argument make it seem like porting games (Xbox One to PS4, PS4 to PC, Xbox One to PC, etc) just only need a few magic clicks and modifications. Even porting Xbox One to PC will still need an extra work to do.

Sagia86Wow, your argument make it seem like porting games (Xbox One to PS4, PS4 to PC, Xbox One to PC, etc) just only need a few magic clicks and modifications. Even porting Xbox One to PC will still need an extra work to do.

Also... WTF is UT3 and UT4... I think he ment UE3/UE4... UT3 is a game, not a game engine LOL...

Oh and PC to PS4/XBox One... (yeah, believe it or not, PC games are ported to console as well, not to mention, that's where they come to life to begin with, right? Haha).

I don't understand why Mr.Sweeney is down on it. Mantle potentially will be able to make games run better on AMD hardware and are compatibility and performance of his engine not important to his aims? Even if Mantle allows Unreal games to run better on Radeons, the end result in most scenario will be achievement of parity with Nvidia hardware as it used to enjoy performance edge with Unreal powered games over its competition. This is just my opinion.

Not only Mr.Sweeney, but Mr.Carmack also need to get with this exciting development in graphics technology. As engineers they would be very excited to unlock the full potential of their games with GCN and see their creations perform even better, realize their aims of visual perfection. If anything, it will make their job a lot easier on that front. Then the game developers who announce the adoption of Mantle will be using their engines in no time and this synergy will benefit all involved. It will even benefit Nvidia, since they will have to introduce new technologies and strategy to entice consumers to their products, and innovation and new exciting developments in graphics will encourage more competition.

Sagia86Well, first i assumed you are not games developer and maybe you didn't that around 500+ games using physx. Also, physx CAN RUN on CPU, only certain effect will need GPU assisted, well, even then developer can decide to run it on CPU or GPU.

Yes it can run on cpu REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY SLOW. On the other hand a gpu that can't run Mantle code at least can run DirectX which is optimized for GPUs. So, tomorrow someone with a gpu without Mantle support will probably be in a better position than someone with a gpu that doesn't support PhysX today.

The only REAL problem with Mantle is going to be something else, if it happens. You have AMD today asking $299 for 280X OK? Tomorrow AMD can come to you, to me, to everyone and say "Look with Mantle 280X is much faster than before, so I don't want from you $299 but $349".
That could be a problem. Nvidia is already overpricing it's gpus because of PhysX and CUDA.

NeoXFAlso... WTF is UT3 and UT4... I think he ment UE3/UE4... UT3 is a game, not a game engine LOL...

Oh and PC to PS4/XBox One... (yeah, believe it or not, PC games are ported to console as well, not to mention, that's where they come to life to begin with, right? Haha).

PC games ported to consoles is a rarity. the vast majority of games are written using low-level APIs on both consoles and then the code stack is ported to the PC which involves rewriting all the code while keeping the code structure the same (most of the time).

UE3 and UE4 are both mediocre game engines not designed for AA or AAA games.

john_Yes it can run on cpu REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY SLOW. On the other hand a gpu that can't run Mantle code at least can run DirectX which is optimized for GPUs. So, tomorrow someone with a gpu without Mantle support will probably be in a better position than someone with a gpu that doesn't support PhysX today.

The only REAL problem with Mantle is going to be something else, if it happens. You have AMD today asking $299 for 280X OK? Tomorrow AMD can come to you, to me, to everyone and say "Look with Mantle 280X is much faster than before, so I don't want from you $299 but $349".
That could be a problem. Nvidia is already overpricing it's gpus because of PhysX and CUDA.

First of all, currently nvidia already fix "the x87 issue" and they already make the optimization on cpu with their latest physx SDK 3.2++, Even the latest version of physx 3.3 beat Bullet physic by a large margin. Incase you wondering, that test are only using CPU acceleration. But, sadly, there is no AA games that using it as of now.

Also, i guess you didn't know that even if you "turn off Physx" on games option, the games are still using physx to simulate physic effect (ragdoll, collision detection, rigid body, etc) and it is accelerated by using CPU.

Also it free to used, widely support by 3d game engine, have many tutorial, resources and support. Heck, even in Universities, they are using this to teach the student. You should know it very hard to make programmed your own physic simulation and also you must make sure the algorithms you using are resources friendly.

I'm agree with your last statement and I'm pretty sure if AMD capture more gpu market than Nvidia, i'm pretty sure their price also will increase. Their are business company after all. I'm still remember when the times AMD Athlon 64 are more expensive than Pentium 4.

FrustratedGarrettThe idea behind Mantle is having a more personalized programming approach to the underlying hardware. This yields major performance and stability gains.
The other bonus is that since Mantle is low-mid level, and since a Mantle driver compiles to GCN machine code, You can use the API to write code that runs on both consoles and Radeon PCs, which makes cross-platform game development a much easier task.

I'm personally very excited about it. It will allow to produce much better games visuals and mechanics wise. Utilizing the vector processors or the GCN CUs to process much complex physics without having to move data back and forth between the CPU and GPU, going through the overhead of a high-level API and the underlying OS, along with shared memory access between the CPU and GPU can make a massive impact on the realism aspect of games.

The key is OPEN and SUPPORT.
AMD,nVidia and Microsoft had their own SDK.AMD always open but severe lack support.nVidia charge premium for their SDK but tied with some agreement.Micro$hit was no good either,they only did hardware layering.
I really hope Mantle was open,so many indie game developer can take benefit of it.

MxPhenom 216Better looking game != Better game :p

That why i keep my console,PC gaming doesn't have ANY J-RPG :p

the54thvoidBut really, it's like Apple v Samsung - just co-operate you money whoring bastards.

They already co-operate each other...in COURT :roll:

john_Yes it can run on cpu REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY SLOW. On the other hand a gpu that can't run Mantle code at least can run DirectX which is optimized for GPUs. So, tomorrow someone with a gpu without Mantle support will probably be in a better position than someone with a gpu that doesn't support PhysX today.

The only REAL problem with Mantle is going to be something else, if it happens. You have AMD today asking $299 for 280X OK? Tomorrow AMD can come to you, to me, to everyone and say "Look with Mantle 280X is much faster than before, so I don't want from you $299 but $349".
That could be a problem. Nvidia is already overpricing it's gpus because of PhysX and CUDA.

Maybe you didn't know about this, even if you disable "Physx" on some games, the game still using Physx for physic simulation (rigid body, collision detection, etc) and it running on CPU. Maybe you should try Alice the Madness Return to see what i mean. Also, this are the list of games that using only cpu physx so you don't even need to use nvidia gpu and you can run it smoothly on a ATI gpu.

Incase you didn't know, the latest Physx SDK 3.2++ already fix the unoptimized code for latest cpu (x87) and according to this test (with Physx SDK 3.3), it even beat the AMD sponsored Bullet physic by a huge margin . Sadly, there is no games using Physx SDK 3.2++ as of now.

Plus, Physx are free to use, easy to implement on your games, support by many 3d game engine, have a lot of tutorial, demo, support and resources. Heck, even Universities teach it to their students around the world. You should know it very hard to make your own complex physic simulation (You also need to make sure your algorithms are fast enough and not resource hungry).

About mantle running on Nvidia and Intel GPU... i think it will not be possible dude, it low level after all. But I might be wrong though. Also, didn't John Carmack already made a point that Nvidia OpenGL are also can optimize as a low level, even AMD said they will released special OpenGL that is on par with Mantle.

I totally agree with you on AMD might increase their price if they can capture more market than Nvidia and also, if more games started using Mantle API. It will be the same with AMD Athlon FX, when AMD still dominate Intel at that times.

FrustratedGarrettPC games ported to consoles is a rarity. the vast majority of games are written using low-level APIs on both consoles and then the code stack is ported to the PC which involves rewriting all the code while keeping the code structure the same (most of the time).

UE3 and UE4 are both mediocre game engines not designed for AA or AAA games.

Thank you for reply for guys

NeoXFAlso... WTF is UT3 and UT4... I think he ment UE3/UE4... UT3 is a game, not a game engine LOL...

Oh and PC to PS4/XBox One... (yeah, believe it or not, PC games are ported to console as well, not to mention, that's where they come to life to begin with, right? Haha).

I guess you are one of the guys that thing when you making games for Xbox 360 on PC , after you compile it, you also expect it will still run on PC too. If like that, all the games that ever created on console will run on PC without any modification

p/s: Serpent of Darkness give A Very-Very WRONG information. For example, he said that AMD is GCN and Nvidia is CUDA... GCN is archicture (same as Nvidia Kepler) dude meanwhile CUDA is parallel computing platform and programming model. Also, open source didn't mean you can run it on any devices available on the market

One day when Microsoft goes bankrupt and we can no longer play DX based games, is that grounds to ban DX?

I wonder why there are so many computer illiterate people (to put it mildly, but I didn't want to call people retards) on a website supposed to be the hub of IT.

Direct3D is an open API - you can reimplement it, if you want and that's already done for Wine/Linux (alas only for Direct3D 9c and partly 10, 11 is largely dormant since it's very difficult and the project is lacking resources).

And I don't care about PhysX - it's an addon, every game which has it can run without PhysX hardware or PhysX can use your CPU for calculations.

Lame, so lame. I'm really disappointed with the level of technical discussion here. Pure fanboyism, no valid information, no arguments - that's what I see here.