Wednesday, February 7th 2018

"Most Cryptocurrencies' Value Could Hit Zero", Warns Goldmann Sachs Analyst

Adding yet more tinder to the fire is usually the way for some players in the industry - and this isn't any different (one could even say this is exacerbated) by investment gurus and finance groups. Steve Strongin, Goldmann Sachs global head of investment research, said in a February 5th report that most digital currencies are unlikely to survive in their current form, and investors should prepare for coins to lose all their value as they're replaced by a small set of future competitors. Steve Strongin is particularly worried on account of "The high correlation between the different cryptocurrencies," adding that "because of the lack of intrinsic value, the currencies that don't survive will most likely trade to zero." This is a trend that can usually be seen in the crypto market, as most alt-coins tend to follow Bitcoin's pricing trends, with their value being seemingly pegged to the current cryptocurrency king's value - and some might say credibility. There have been some instances of drifting pricing trends where some cryptocurrencies actually cease being pegged to bitcoin's value in their own valuation, but these events are usually few, far between, and tend to regress to their previous state.
According to Strongin, today's digital coins lack long-term staying power because of slow transaction times, security challenges and high maintenance costs. He further said that the introduction of regulated Bitcoin futures, which we've already covered here on TPU, hasn't addressed those concerns and he dismissed the idea of the advantage always being in the field of the pieces that make the first and more definite moves, comparing this cryptocurrency boom to the dot com bubble in the 1990's. Source: Bloomberg
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57 Comments on "Most Cryptocurrencies' Value Could Hit Zero", Warns Goldmann Sachs Analyst

#1
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
It's almost like Steve Strongin was using me as a source. :roll:

No source linked?
Posted on Reply
#2
CrAsHnBuRnXp
Good! Give us our fucking video cards back!
Posted on Reply
#4
yotano211
I will never trust any analyst from Goldmann Sachs, or Goldmann Slacks. When I was working at Morgan Staleny from 2005-2008, Goldmann would do unethical things even beyond the unthical things that Morgan Stanley did, myself including.
Posted on Reply
#5
cdawall
where the hell are my stars
Kind of sounds like Goldmann Sachs is trying to short the market as it gains steam.
Posted on Reply
#6
TheMailMan78
Big Member
"cdawall said:
Kind of sounds like Goldmann Sachs is trying to short the market as it gains steam.
1. Short it.
2. Buy low.
3. Rave about the future of Crypto.
4. Profit

Honestly I hope it cashes and never rebounds. Its useless.
Posted on Reply
#7
yotano211
"TheMailMan78 said:
1. Short it.
2. Buy low.
3. Rave about the future of Crypto.
4. Profit

Honestly I hope it cashes and never rebounds. Its useless.
I have lots of those cashes in my pocket from Crypto.
Posted on Reply
#8
wolina
This lying piece of shi* would say anything to earn more money from conducting thievish banking.
So far Cryptos didn't collapse the market, banks did, many times.
Srsly, stfu bro.
Posted on Reply
#9
jmcslob
Wonders how long it will be before Big business regulates the average person out of business...
At least that's what I get when I read stuff like this.
Posted on Reply
#10
lynx29
"wolina said:
This lying piece of shi* would say anything to earn more money from conducting thievish banking.
So far Cryptos didn't collapse the market, banks did, many times.
Srsly, stfu bro.
You don't think Goldman doesn't own any Crypto? ;) They love playing you fools who sell at the slightest panic. It's no different than the stock market, except now they don't have to worry about government regulations, they can buy low, sell high and control the markets with no fears. :) Crypto is the new playground for hedgefund bros.
Posted on Reply
#12
cdawall
where the hell are my stars
"TheMailMan78 said:
1. Short it.
2. Buy low.
3. Rave about the future of Crypto.
4. Profit

Honestly I hope it cashes and never rebounds. Its useless.
Why?
Posted on Reply
#13
xkm1948
I am gonna come up with genetic coding coins. You need use your own cells' gene regulation network to generate certain DNA sequences used as coins. Transaction is performed by, em, exchanging your "currecny storage" cells with someone else.

Sounds good? Now start crunching!
Posted on Reply
#14
horik
I believe it, only the FED and banks are alowed to create money from thin air.
Posted on Reply
#15
dorsetknob
"YOUR RMA REQUEST IS CON-REFUSED"
"xkm1948 said:
You need use your own cells' gene regulation network to generate certain DNA sequences used as coins. Transaction is performed by, em, exchanging your "currecny storage" cells with someone else.
:)Will You Call this Coin Alt Fornication :):lovetpu:
Posted on Reply
#16
Captain_Tom
Wait. Some coins may lose in competition with other coins? That's just so stating the obvious lol.


Oh and when will these dinosaurs realize that comparing crypto to the "dotcom bubble" only makes people want to invest in them more? After all investments in internet companies ended up working out pretty well for those who invested wisely.
Posted on Reply
#18
Fx
"TheMailMan78 said:
1. Short it.
2. Buy low.
3. Rave about the future of Crypto.
4. Profit

Honestly I hope it cashes and never rebounds. Its useless.
Indeed.
Posted on Reply
#19
ppn
Zero-sum game. Transfer of wealth from less IQ to more IQ people. Wisely invested, more like lottery.
Posted on Reply
#20
Fx
"horik said:
I believe it, only the FED and banks are alowed to create money from thin air.
The Fed or Federal Reserve IS a private bank. There is nothing federal about it. They don't teach this in school -- hell, maybe most schools don't even know.

The Fed creates the money out of thin air and other private banks borrow from it for no to very low interest rates. They then turn around and lend out larger amounts than the sum that they receive from the Fed and charge us much greater interest rates than they paid.

We then of course pay taxes from our paychecks so that The Fed can make money too. Fractional-reserve banking is a brilliant scheme by the wicked and cruel.
Posted on Reply
#21
xkm1948
"dorsetknob said:
:)Will You Call this Coin Alt Fornication :):lovetpu:
Dunno man, I am a practical guy. Just gonna call it cat coin
Posted on Reply
#22
lexluthermiester
"CrAsHnBuRnXp said:
Good! Give us our @*%$!ng video cards back!
While the choice of vocabulary was iffy, the sentiment was spot on.

"xkm1948 said:
Dunno man, I am a practical guy. Just gonna call it cat coin
Or maybe batcoin? Nana Nana Nuna Nana Nana Nana Nana Nuna, BATCOIN!..(I might have slightly dated myself just then)
Posted on Reply
#23
R-T-B
As some noted, this is basically stating the obvious. It says nothing about cryptos long term prospects... though the comments say a lot about how impatient some are re the shortages (it's been what, 2 months?)
Posted on Reply
#24
lexluthermiester
"R-T-B said:
though the comments say a lot about how impatient some are re the shortages (it's been what, 2 months?)
To be fair, some us make a living on the sale of PC's and parts for upgrades. It is getting very irksome.
Posted on Reply
#25
R-T-B
"lexluthermiester said:
To be fair, some us make a living on the sale of PC's and parts for upgrades. It is getting very irksome.
Make mining rigs. Adapt to the market?

I'm serious. This is a profitable enterprise there, not a downturn.
Posted on Reply
#26
cdawall
where the hell are my stars
"lexluthermiester said:
To be fair, some us make a living on the sale of PC's and parts for upgrades. It is getting very irksome.
I haven't had an issue ordering parts from venders. If you are making a living buying and selling I assume you have a reseller license and can order direct. I can get just about any msi/zotac products at basically msrp
Posted on Reply
#27
lexluthermiester
"R-T-B said:
Make mining rigs. Adapt to the market? I'm serious. This is a profitable enterprise there, not a downturn.
I know you're serious, and no offense is intended. It's a deminishing return market. The longer cryptocoins are mined, the fewer are found and the harder it becomes. Not only that but most people either don't have the technical know-how or have no interest. Haven't had even one person ask me to help them build a mining rig. It gets talked about but no one even thinks about it seriously. This is a market for the elites. People like me cater to the average user, business', governments and gamers.
Posted on Reply
#28
mcraygsx
Lets put a HALT to this before CPU's become next target for miners.
Posted on Reply
#29
lexluthermiester
"mcraygsx said:
Lets put a HALT to this before CPU's become next target for miners.
That's already happened. Actual Bitcoin and it's derivatives run on CPU's primarily. Etherium and it's cousins, were designed to run on GPU's.
Posted on Reply
#30
R-T-B
"lexluthermiester said:
I know you're serious, and offense is intended. It's a deminishing return market. The longer cryptocoins are mined, the fewer are found and the harder it becomes. Not only that but most people either don't have the technical know-how or have no interest. Haven't had even one person ask me to help them build a mining rig. It gets talked about but no one even thinks about it seriously. This is a market for the elites. People like me cater to the average user, business', governments and gamers.
No offense intended and I know it's not your standard audience. Try ebay maybe? Meh, just trying to have you make lemonade from lemons.
Posted on Reply
#31
cdawall
where the hell are my stars
"lexluthermiester said:
That's already happened. Actual Bitcoin and it's derivatives run on CPU's primarily. Etherium and it's cousins, were designed to run on GPU's.
Those all run on ASIC's the only algorithm snagging heavily off of traditional CPU's right now is cryptonight which has jack shit to do with bitcoin.
Posted on Reply
#32
kuwlness
"ArbitraryAffection said:
Dai, Crypto, Dai!
Stablecoin Dai? This guy knows what's up :)
Posted on Reply
#33
R-T-B
"lexluthermiester said:
That's already happened. Actual Bitcoin and it's derivatives run on CPU's primarily. Etherium and it's cousins, were designed to run on GPU's.
No, bitcoin runs on ASICs. There are cpu coins but they aren't very profitable and never will be because parrellism.
Posted on Reply
#34
cdawall
where the hell are my stars
"R-T-B said:
No, bitcoin runs on ASICs. There are cpu coins but they aren't very profitable and never will be because parrellism.
Well couple of cryptonight coins are profitable, but GPU's mine them better. Doesn't stop threadripper from having a great ROI though.
Posted on Reply
#35
R-T-B
"cdawall said:
Well couple of cryptonight coins are profitable, but GPU's mine them better. Doesn't stop threadripper from having a great ROI though.
Which is why I qualified it with "very" profitable.
Posted on Reply
#36
cdawall
where the hell are my stars
"R-T-B said:
Which is why I qualified it with "very" profitable.
Threadripper is on par with Vega which means a 32 core Epyc would double the performance. Could scale quite well.
Posted on Reply
#38
johnspack
Please, let something happen.. a 1060 goes for 700can up here now, a sidegrade from my 970 that I paid under 500 after shipping and taxes for. A 1080 goes for 1200 before tax? Dam....
Posted on Reply
#39
techy1
well there should not be more than 1 or 2 crypto curencies... because none except miners and trades use them and if none is using them - thair values are inflated on some kind of future expectations (aka hype). And I stronly agree on "....because of slow transaction times, security challenges and high maintenance costs."... you can not pay fees in multiple percent and in the same time wait for 20-30 mins for transactions to happen - that is a joke, not future proof real life payment. that being said - I do not think Bitcoin will ever go away and there fore will never hit zero.
Posted on Reply
#40
R-T-B
"techy1 said:
well there should not be more than 1 or 2 crypto curencies... because none except miners and trades use them and if none is using them - thair values are inflated on some kind of future expectations (aka hype). And I stronly agree on "....because of slow transaction times, security challenges and high maintenance costs."... you can not pay fees in multiple percent and in the same time wait for 20-30 mins for transactions to happen - that is a joke, not future proof real life payment. that being said - I do not think Bitcoin will ever go away and there fore will never hit zero.
It's true bitcoin will probably never go away, but of all the altcoins, it's actually one of the least technologically advanced and probably the best justifiable one to eliminate. Ironic, isn't it?
Posted on Reply
#41
Ubersonic
"Digital cameras are merely a fad, they have no longevity" - Kodak, 1990s

:P
Posted on Reply
#42
Parn
Classic investment banking tactics to trick the less well informed average joes so that the bank gets all the profit at the end.
Posted on Reply
#43
lexluthermiester
"R-T-B said:
No offense intended and I know it's not your standard audience. Try ebay maybe? Meh, just trying to have you make lemonade from lemons.
No worries. I had left out the word "no" and it has been corrected. It should have read "I know you're serious, and no offense is intended." My proof-reading needs to improve... Sorry about that. Admittedly, my understanding of how cryptocurrencies actually function is very limited. Have been pulling from Ebay, Newegg and Craigslist for older cards that still perform well, but then so is everyone else and the same over-inflated pricing is going on.
"R-T-B said:
it's actually one of the least technologically advanced and probably the best justifiable one to eliminate. Ironic, isn't it?
Did not know this. Interesting.
Posted on Reply
#44
rtwjunkie
PC Gaming Enthusiast
Another day, another potential flame war thread on cryptocurrency. :p

Those thinking any kind of fall or failure in those markets will suddenly translate into GPU's everywhere at old prices are mistaken.

That will take considerable time, even if there were a complete collapse of crypto, which I don't think there will be.

Buy used. Careful watching of eBay does produce some deals, much better than new GPU market. Also, like I said in another thread, those 970's, and 980's are able to play most current games even pretty well at 1920x1080. If you have them, keep them.

If anything, I think a long term shortage of high end GPU's ( and I consider $70-80% markup a shortage also), will actually serve to keep 1920x1080 the monitor standard for even longer.
Posted on Reply
#45
TheDeeGee
Let's hope bubble bursts.

Most inefficient way of earning money.
Posted on Reply
#46
neatfeatguy
"rtwjunkie said:
Another day, another potential flame war thread on cryptocurrency. :p

Those thinking any kind of fall or failure in those markets will suddenly translate into GPU's everywhere at old prices are mistaken.

That will take considerable time, even if there were a complete collapse of crypto, which I don't think there will be.

Buy used. Careful watching of eBay does produce some deals, much better than new GPU market. Also, like I said in another thread, those 970's, and 980's are able to play most current games even pretty well at 1920x1080. If you have them, keep them.

If anything, I think a long term shortage of high end GPU's ( and I consider $70-80% markup a shortage also), will actually serve to keep 1920x1080 the monitor standard for even longer.
If someone was looking for a decent gaming GPU - not for mining - and aren't opposed to 2nd hand equipment, be sure to hit up other forums that have a buy/sell section, craigslist, ebay and any other spot you can think of. For example, I saw someone sold off their 980Ti cards on tomshardware not too long ago for around $300 a pop. Good deal for a great gaming card considering the current prices they go for on ebay (right around $450, give or take a bit). They work about as good as a GTX 1070 in games and a 1070 is upwards of $600+, if you can find one new. If you have a local MicroCenter, they have a Gigabyte GTX 1070 going for $550.....that's only about $170 over the 1070 MSRP.
Posted on Reply
#47
Casecutter
"neatfeatguy said:
If you have a local MicroCenter, they have a Gigabyte GTX 1070 going for $550.....that's only about $170 over the 1070 MSRP.
Not to bust your chops... but,
Actually 6/2016 originally the standard 1070 MSRP: $379 / Founders $449; and those were already inflated prices compared to the 970 ($330 15%) and being no competition. Then 10/2017 Nvidia dropped GTX 1070 to $329 and $399 for the Founders edition.

So at $550, that's like a 67% overcharge for a card that been around 18 months ... that's No Bueno!
Normally in the real-world at this point such a card would be like $280'ish with a rebate.
Just adding perspective.
Posted on Reply
#48
TheTechGuy1337
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Did he seriously say bitcoin is slow. It's a crap ton faster than a wire transfer. The lightning network just released for btc and is being tested as we speak. There are altcoins out there that are lightning fast already. Pun intended. It sounds like Mr.Strongin is worried about wall streets future if we are not going to them for money and investment advice. I can put money in ethereum in America, transfer it to the UK in literal moments, and cash out in EURO. The blockchain fees are nothing comparing USD to EURO bank transer fees.
Posted on Reply
#49
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Same Day ACH: Moving Payments Faster (Phase 1)

"TheTechGuy1337 said:
I can put money in ethereum in America, transfer it to the UK in literal moments, and cash out in EURO. The blockchain fees are nothing comparing USD to EURO bank transer fees.
Because there's logistical problems which, instead of being tackled by a bank, is being tackled by cryptocurrency exchanges. Both can run into issues.
Posted on Reply
#50
moproblems99
"TheTechGuy1337 said:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Did he seriously say bitcoin is slow. It's a crap ton faster than a wire transfer. The lightning network just released for btc and is being tested as we speak. There are altcoins out there that are lightning fast already. Pun intended. It sounds like Mr.Strongin is worried about wall streets future if we are not going to them for money and investment advice. I can put money in ethereum in America, transfer it to the UK in literal moments, and cash out in EURO. The blockchain fees are nothing comparing USD to EURO bank transer fees.
Fiat currency is not going anywhere. I would surmise that crypto is also going to be around for a while. Can't we all just get along?
Posted on Reply
#51
Arjai
I would 'Get Along' better, say, if I could buy a new GPU! Directly, or indirectly, depending on your beliefs, Mining affects GPU pricing.

Arguments aside, I can't afford to buy a GPU. So, even if I want to game, or mine coins, I have to put money aside in the hopes that NEXT YEAR, I have enough to buy one! Whereas, the money I saved from last year? Wasn't enough. As mentioned above, the "Deals" are still a 60%+ markup from MSRP.

4K TV's and Monitor's are cheaper than the GPU's that can run them.
Sad. I think it is sad. I can't even run Crysis!
Posted on Reply
#52
R-T-B
"FordGT90Concept said:
Because there's logistical problems which, instead of being tackled by a bank, is being tackled by cryptocurrency exchanges. Both can run into issues.
What logistical problems are their honestly that aren't 90% solved by the blockchain transaction in the first place?

"Arjai said:
I would 'Get Along' better, say, if I could buy a new GPU!
You can. It's just too expensive for most people. But then, I guess they don't really want it as bad as the others. Who are we to dictate who is more deserving?
Posted on Reply
#53
Arjai
"R-T-B said:

...But then, I guess they don't really want it as bad as the others. Who are we to dictate who is more deserving?
Not sure where you are going with this. "WANT?" Yes I want a new GPU. I am not going to give up eating, or the roof over my head, to get one. Does that mean I don't want it?

Then, Who is the "WE" you think is dictating something?

I think I put it plain and simple above. Facts as Facts. No one is "dictating" and no one needs to judge my level of "want."

I don't believe you were trying to offend me but, as you can see, I am tired and ornery. I am hitting the sack, long day, blah blah.

:lovetpu:
Posted on Reply
#54
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
"R-T-B said:
What logistical problems are their honestly that aren't 90% solved by the blockchain transaction in the first place?
If I wanted Chinese Renminbi and tried to get it from my bank, my bank likely won't have any. They'll have to order it and let me know when I can pick it up. The fees come from them having to go to the foreign exchange to buy it and the shipping cost to get it to the local branch. With cryptocurrency, this process still happens at exchanges. Someone has to secure the physical funds in order to facilitate a withdrawl.

If you're not talking physical currencies, the reason why it's cheaper to exchange money digitally is because governments aren't taxing the hell out of crypto yet. Fundamentally, it's the same reason why PayPal is cheaper. Or paying for something via credit card and paying the foreign exchange transaction fee. Case in point: crypto should be taxed at the capital gains rate which, for most, is 15%. That 15%, by itself, is more than the fees banks, PayPal, and credit card companies pay.


Edit: Bitcoin may not be worth all the hoopla: N.Y. Fed blog post
Posted on Reply
#55
TheTechGuy1337
"FordGT90Concept said:
If I wanted Chinese Renminbi and tried to get it from my bank, my bank likely won't have any. They'll have to order it and let me know when I can pick it up. The fees come from them having to go to the foreign exchange to buy it and the shipping cost to get it to the local branch. With cryptocurrency, this process still happens at exchanges. Someone has to secure the physical funds in order to facilitate a withdrawl.

If you're not talking physical currencies, the reason why it's cheaper to exchange money digitally is because governments aren't taxing the hell out of crypto yet. Fundamentally, it's the same reason why PayPal is cheaper. Or paying for something via credit card and paying the foreign exchange transaction fee. Case in point: crypto should be taxed at the capital gains rate which, for most, is 15%. That 15%, by itself, is more than the fees banks, PayPal, and credit card companies pay.
A lot of places are taxing cryptocurrencies already. America is all about them taxes bro. They are working on regulating exchanges more by requesting info on who is taking money out and putting in for example. The IRS wants their money and they will get it. I foresee every country ending up like this. So I base my earnings usually on a mixture of short and long term capital gains tax since I live in the US. I'm usually getting hit pretty hard with short term capital gain as the US dictates all short term as regular income rates. Up to 37% taxable as of 2018 for short term. Long term is 15 to 20% respectively.
Posted on Reply
#56
BiggieShady
"xkm1948 said:
Crypto Kitties! Hell yeah!

https://www.cryptokitties.co/


Invest in blockchain kitties, they'll be infinitely more valuable than virtual coins at zero ... and they're purrdier too
Posted on Reply
#57
yotano211
"FordGT90Concept said:
If I wanted Chinese Renminbi and tried to get it from my bank, my bank likely won't have any. They'll have to order it and let me know when I can pick it up. The fees come from them having to go to the foreign exchange to buy it and the shipping cost to get it to the local branch. With cryptocurrency, this process still happens at exchanges. Someone has to secure the physical funds in order to facilitate a withdrawl.

If you're not talking physical currencies, the reason why it's cheaper to exchange money digitally is because governments aren't taxing the hell out of crypto yet. Fundamentally, it's the same reason why PayPal is cheaper. Or paying for something via credit card and paying the foreign exchange transaction fee. Case in point: crypto should be taxed at the capital gains rate which, for most, is 15%. That 15%, by itself, is more than the fees banks, PayPal, and credit card companies pay.


Edit: Bitcoin may not be worth all the hoopla: N.Y. Fed blog post
I dont know if you live in the US or not, but the US already taxes cryptocurrency as income. I dont know if its taxed as capital gains or regular income, consult a tax professional on that. The US has taxed cryptocurrency has income for a long time now, its up to the person to report that income or not.
Posted on Reply
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