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Some people accuse TPU of 'bias' towards Nvidia.

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oh there are worse ones,believe me.
The only ones that are favourable consist of a tiny bunch of games that amd generally does well at,and that's the problem.The card is very inconsistent. It beats 2080 in avg. fps as many times as it loses to 2070 in min. fps. Highly priced,based on exactly the same uarch as 2017 Vega with no changes. You can sugarcoat it or look at the reults and say it how it is.
dont think you will find any sugar coating in what i said lol. but you wont find any fan boying for either side either.

and i should have probably said "one of the harshest reviews from a reputable place that i have seen"
 
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I tend to appreciate why people find objection to what AMD is doing - because sparing a gpu 2 weeks after delivery is the kind of motivation of everyone making these kinds of purchasing decisions.
 
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Edit2: This is the video, at 7:11
Tried R6:Siege benchmark on RTX 2080. At least from what I can see in software, there is no stutter like that.
I wonder what's his methodology though, software tools or FCAT?
 
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People should really be looking at the benchmarks against games they play or are planning on playing. See how the card(s) they're look at perform. Also, as others have said, check multiple sites.

For example, out of the all games benched here on TPU for the Radeon VII, these are the games I plan on picking up to play (or have played) someday and these are the benches I look at:
Divinity Original Sin 2 (want to play)
Ghost Recon Wildlands (played)
GTA V (have, but played very little)
Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice (want to play)
Rainbow Six Siege (played)
Deus Ex: Mankind Divided (have, but haven't played yet)
Strange Brigade (want to play)
Middle Earth: Shadow of War (want to play)

All other game reviews are just icing on the cake. Out of the games listed above, the Radeon VII excels over the 2080 in Strange Brigade and Deus Ex, otherwise it lags behind the 2080 by upwards of 10% or more.

Now I have an idea of what kind of GPU would better benefit me if I were looking to upgrade. The 2080 gives better, overall performance than the Radeon VII in games I'm interested in. I'd go with a 2080. I see no bias here. It's a wide variety of games.
 
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"Bias towards Nvidia"? I still remember that "EPIC FAIL" the GTX 590 got here.
Man, fanboys are becoming worse and worse in quality.
 
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TPU is for me the king of hardware tests since a long time.
If you google "Radeon VII review" you can have a good laugh (like this one, a 980Ti vs Vega 64 and VII to show how strong VII is :laugh:)
In general, it's same results, Radeon VII struggle to beat a 1080Ti.
Intel please enter the competition to lower the stupid prices :)
 
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Intel please enter the competition to lower the stupid prices :)
That's a good one. Intel and lower prices in the same sentence. I wouldn't expect anything less than to slot in a head of both of them. Or at least mirror nvidia pricing.
 
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That's a good one. Intel and lower prices in the same sentence. I wouldn't expect anything less than to slot in a head of both of them. Or at least mirror nvidia pricing.
You missed the point.
New challenger arrives, challenges nVidia, prices cuts, consumer profits (ideal world).
 
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You missed the point.
I mean, it may look that way. Just remember who went there and is leading the team. Look at Intel's strategy now.
 
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That's a good one. Intel and lower prices in the same sentence. I wouldn't expect anything less than to slot in a head of both of them. Or at least mirror nvidia pricing.
as much as i say intell suck for prices, they hav by far the best rma i have ever had to deal withe. they send you the box you send them the thing they send you a new thing, no bull no arguing no give them a recipt or tell them where or when you bought it. if he serial is in warranty thats all they need to know.
to me the ONE time i had to rma an intell item has made the intel tax justified.
 
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People that think TPU is biased towards Nvidia tend to be biased towards AMD. It's like a faith system, where a result you do not like must be attributed to falsehood.
Given TPUs preponderance to 'grey market' key resellers, it shows that it's unlikely to be taking backhanders from Nvidia.

As an additional factor, it's clearly obvious more people dislike Nvidias business direction, myself included, whereas I'd argue it's hard to 'hate' on the underdog but that's human nature.
We live in an age of confirmation bias where fanboi's of any side of an issue only want to read what fits their preconceived notions. I do read other sites for some info not available or not always available here, but i have no interest or even understand any reason to use "benchmarks" as a measurement criteria in the context used. It's very easy for a driver author to tweak the benchmark to excel at what the benchmark includes at the expense of things it doesn't. As for business direction, welcome to capitalism. Boards are required by law to prioritize sgarehoilder interests / profits within the confines of the law. They get no points for being "nice guys". The public hammered nVidia for their partner program to their own detriment. Under the program, "parners" would get various nVidia incentives which many of us read as "marketing speak" for "become a partner and when we detect the partner card, we'll loosen up the restrictions in Boost 3:

AMD does play the role of the nice guy being the company that cares about the average Joe. Folks hammer nVidia for the cost of G-Sync because "Freesysnc is free and it's the same thing" which is about as true as AWD is the same as 4WD ... which as anyone who regularly drives in snow or has gone off road will just laugh. With today's upper tier cards, most games are well out of the range < 70 - 80 fps range where Any-Sync shines ... having the option to use MBR technology which requires a hardware module that Freesync does not have is "not the same thing".

I understand that when buying a car, if the model with AC is $200 more, choosing the one without AC cause 'you only need it 30 days a year". I don't understand the argument to justify buying the one without AC when both models are the same price which is what we saw with PhysX. We are now getting the same argument with RTX, you don't think RTX is worth the performance penalty ? Turn it off.

My biggest frustration with AMD GFX is if you continue to promise and don't deliver what everyone was expecting, you're hurting yourself. Gotta get off this train:

1. Prelaunch hype is all [Insert new AMD technology here] is going to change everything. (Fill in HBM, Mantle whatever)

2. Benchmarks "leaked" <cough, cough> showing it beats comparably priced nVidia card in [this one thing]

3. Card is released at price similar to nVidia card and almost as fast using hand picked games ... "but ,,, ooh ooh ... with overclocking it can match nVidia !"

4. Testing of cards post release shows, 1) yeah it is almost as fast in those games, further behind in most others. 2) It needs more power, emits more heat and is louder than competition's cards, 3) It needs a 50 - 100 watt bigger power supply and an extra case fan.

5. Further testing shows not only what we already knew ... nVidia cards can be overclocked too, but also that nVidia cards can be overclocked more, even widening the gap.

6. Pricing drops and now the comparison isn't so bad ... would have been a lot less "ill will" if they'd just started there in the 1st place.

On that last note .... it does seem that nVidia is doing a bit of imitation of AMD ... Since 2xx series, AMD has been very aggressively overclocking the card in the box which is why they jumped to 95C operating temps at that time. That left very little room for manually overclocking with increases in fps averaging 4 - 6%. The green team was almost always in double digits improvements with some breaking 30%. With the Radeon VII (131.0 fps), we saw TPU get 8.2% after manual OC ... it was supposed to compete with the 2080 but TPU managed just 9% with the FE 2080 (169.0) making the 2080 FE 29% faster in the manually overclocked test. The 2070 FE (138.7) is what it should be more properly compared with the 2070 FE OC'd 8.1% giving it a 4.5 % speed advantage.

It would seem that nVidia spoiled expectations with the large boost over 9xx performance such that they chose to release the 2xxx series with far less manual OC ability putting them in the boxes with a pretty aggressive OC as compared to past generations. But as to the business practices, this is Macy's versus Gimbels, Ford versus Chevy, etc. I don't see either being more consumer friendly than the other, they are just playing the cards that were dealt. You do what you can with what you got.

if AMD released the Radeon card at 2070 pricing, the reaction would i think be positive.

Now, how does this affect the OPs issue ... there's two parts of TPUs test procedure that favor AMD:

1. I don't think there's a large % of users here who aren't using MSI AB to OC their cards. I wish there was a way to click on or check a box that showed two different graphs. te default is what we have now ... the optional would be click this and see them compared with their respective OCs. Say for example in the OC page we see that the card being tested OCs 8.2%. Click on the compare OC'd option and that 8.2% is added to the scores in that graph. Now is this valid ? More so than I originally thought I'd imagine. Yes all card scores vary depending on what each game entails, but outside any frame limits, I would think that if a particular game gains 10%, since it's dealing with the same loads before and after the manual OC, gains should not vary a lot. To test each game individually would be to much to ask of the reviewer. It would be nice to see an article where all 23 games in the test suite were tested with the manual OC so we could see just how wide the variance is as a matter of reference.

What I think would be a huge feature is, taking advantage of what I imagine exists ... database with all cards performance for each game would be a "compare" function where you could click to compare the card being reviewed and ask it to add any card which had been tested with that came and same "test system". So for Radeon VII, I'd see a list of say 20 cards and one might pick 5 I wanna see compared. So a table with 7 colums would be on screen .. Game name card in article and the 5 other cards I picked. The deafult view could be at 1440p w/ radio buttons to switch to 1080p and 2160p and default being "out of box" speeds and another pair to pick out of box ormanually overclocked with the latter just being "the math" applied from above. Would be a great tool assuming the assumption holds reasonably close.

2. The cost per dollar thing. To my eyes, choosing of xx80 over a xx70 on a cost per performance barometer can not be made using the cost of the card alone. The entire system is involved in delivering that user experience. So if the 2070 is $550 (and everything else is $1300), then when compared against the 2080 ($790) build the cost ration is not 790 / 550 (44%), it's 2090 / 1850 (+12.9%). To be fair... if it means a 650 PSU instead of a 550 and an extra case fan, then that needs to be allottedfor also.

I see your point. I guess what leaves me off-put is the constant comparison to Nvidia. Which is really my problem. I have no interest in Nvidia or their products...for personal reasons. Thus...I don't really care how other products stack up compared to theirs. I don't care how theirs perform. I don't care how much theirs cost. I don't care if for the same price theirs is better. I don't care if for a lesser price theirs is better. I JUST DO NOT CARE ABOUT NVIDIA. But I realize other people do. And that for a review something usually needs compared to something else to make certain points about it. I just wish it wasn't always a comparison to Nvidia somethings. Is that sensible or reasonable? Probably not. None-the-less...I don't like it.

Long story short...it's me. Not you. And I know that. But I still gotta be me.
That's certainly a valid position ... from your point of view no one could argue differently, but the question then becomes "of what purpose is the review ?" I you want the best performance you can get from a vendor you can live with, then just buy AMDs top card, no need to read a review. No reason to care if it doesn't stack up well. Personally, I tend to be a "hardware whore", the vendor that gves me the best performance, within my budget" gets my buisiness. There are other factors ... from 2002 up till I guess the Z87 / 7xx series era, we were almost exclusively an Asus shop; if a user didn't have a preference, we'd go w/ Asus MoBo and GFX. They almost always had a performance edge, their BIOS was complete, familiar and easy than competition and support was great. Then all that changed. We continued to use a lot of monitors, mice and routers. Now that's changed. Our last RMA took 3 months. Now the only response we get from Asus TS, when we get any are non-responsive tot he question asked. It's like the tech , instead of going thru his 3-ring binder to find the question, and providing the answer is just throwing the binder up in the air and giving us the response on the page that the binder was open to when it landed on the floor. Asus is on our "no buy" list for everything as of this week due to lack of responses with a weird mouse issue and 3 router issues. This was the proverbial last straw.

In order to be prepared for questions when someone wants a new build, I try and keep appraised of strengths and weaknesses. I use the TPU summary charts as a source of an overall performance gradient but when auser has interest only in certain games, will confine the analysis to just those. From that starting point, I look at manual OC results and apply those to the TPU charts. I look at power consumption, noise heat and consider anything which might over ride the performance comparison. Our build philosophy is to never have a repeat customer so we teach folks how to do their own component selection, build the box and maintain it. That means starting with a base build for each budget, then listing oither options for each selection. So a build that say has a Scyther $45 Fuma cooler ... options with equivalent performance that might be considered are these 3 air coolers and thse 3 CLCs, go home, read about their pluses and minus, come back and let's discuss.

I have had favorites... Muskin was my go to source fro RAM for about 20 years .... always top end performance, unrivaled ability to handle crazy OC voltages and TS was just one level below coming to your house. But with DDR$, I have not been impressed with performance or availability and we've parted ways. Humans tend to look at the world strictly from their own Ponit of View (PoV). Henmce the well discussed philosophical question "If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, did it make a sound ?" The scientific mind says "of couse it did,, the laws of science are not suspended just because there's no on there to hear it ... he defines sound as something made". The philosopher / humanist says no, ... "since no one heard it, it is of no significance, he defines sound as something heard". So when we have had 1, 2 or even 3 bad experiences with a particular brand, we think of ouselves as significant enough to matter, we aren't ... statistically speaking our experiences are too few to form any reliable conclusion. Look how many folks swear that they will never own another hard drive of a certain brand ...( I had 3 failures !)... and yet, when we look at RMA rates, the differences are insignificant. Last 12 month period for which data available:
  • HGST = 0.975%
  • Seagate = 0.825%
  • Toshiba = 0.930%
  • Western = 1.15%
That being said, every vendor comes out with crap models ... if your Model has over 2.0%, look elsewhere. These were the worst 5
  • 10,00% Seagate Desktop HDD 6 To
  • 6,78% Seagate Enterprise NAS HDD 6 To
  • 5,08% WD Black 3 To
  • 4,70% Toshiba DT01ACA300 3 To
  • 2,95% WD Red 4 To SATA 6Gb/s
In the end the value of a review is the information in it. Not the conclusions, not the recommendations, just the numbers and the cost. Let's say there's someone out there who plays only Witcher 3 and also won't use nVidia. The Radeon VII hits 95.4 fps @ 1440p ... his monitor isn't Freesync or G-Sync but it is equipped wit MBR capability (BenQ Zowie 27 inch 144Hz Gaming Monitor, (Model XL2735). At 95 fps with MBR a radeon VII, he'll have a better experience than an equivalent Freesync Monitor or G-Sync user who doesn't or can't use ULMB ... so all is right with the world and nothing else matters.. For the fellow or gal who is open to more options, they have the option to get 109.2 for the same price. Will they have a noticeably better experience .... I sincerely doubt it. But if they read the review and know a little math ....

a) They will know that the 2080 will be about 57% as loud.
b) They can use a 80 - 100 watt smaller PSU
c) At average USA electric cost they will save about $18 a year, if they live by me, that's about $39
d) They will need 1 less case fan

Perhaps not of interest to everyone, but these are some of the reasons why i read TPU reviews.
 
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Biased would be if only dx11 games were benchmarked on radeon vii review, I myself think that on dx12 radeon vii is a much better card than rtx 2080 and tpu review shows that.

dx12 games reviewd with radeon vii,

Deus Ex: Mankind Divided

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/Radeon_VII/11.html

Strange Brigade

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/Radeon_VII/25.html

There are only 2 titles with dx12, I myself would want reviews to have half with dx11 and half with dx12, on dx11, radeon vii is garbage.

What they might be complaining is this, on battlefield v tpu used dx11 on guru3d for example they used dx12 and the difference is clearly seen.

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/Radeon_VII/8.html
https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/amd_radeon_vii_16_gb_review,11.html

And few other titles tpu tested on dx11 rather than dx12, maybe that is why they are complaining, Shadow Of The Tomb Raider is also on the list.
 
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attlefield v tpu used dx11
we used bf1 dx12 and people complained that nobody plays dx12 and the masses actually play dx11, so i switched to dx11

shadow of the tomb raider is tested in dx12, the description text was wrong, fixed now
 
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The reviews here are fine with me.
 
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Not only is it not long, but look at the trend:
2015: 3 (but only 5 months, so ~7 annualy)
2016: 15
2017: 7
2018: 3
So RTX and DLSS require DX12?
 
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we used bf1 dx12 and people complained that nobody plays dx12 and the masses actually play dx11, so i switched to dx11

shadow of the tomb raider is tested in dx12, the description text was wrong, fixed now
wouldnt that mean you should also use a 1080p 60hz monitor Budget motherboard quad core intel cpu @3.0-3.6 ghz and 8gb ram because according to steam that is what most people use.
 
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The reviews here are fine with me.
They are fine with me too i trust TPU 100% and appreciate all the hard work W1zzard puts into them. Thing is i worry A LOT and i used to comment a bit on WCCFtech and recently videocardz and they've kinda given me a complex (and totally ruined my tech hobby at one point). people are always saying people are shills or bias or fanboys and I just wanted people to reassure me. The comments on those two sites i have said are just completely toxic and made me extremely depressed at one point. I blocked WCCFtech in my router firewall xD

The community here on TPU is lovely and i can actually get a good discussion about the technology... i know i can be a bit of a fangirl at times (AyyMD:love:) but heyho. Woops I digressed. ^-^
 
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As radeon vii is much much better on dx12 than dx11, people, especially fans of amd want their amazing radeon vii on the best scenario possible and that is dx12 games. If you dont do that then is biased for them, if you use only dx12 games you are not biased for them but for nvidia fans is biased, so is pretty easy to see pro nvidia, amd people. Now half, half means its not biased to either side.
 

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As radeon vii is much much better on dx12 than dx11, people, especially fans of amd want their amazing radeon vii on the best scenario possible and that is dx12 games. If you dont do that then is biased for them, if you use only dx12 games you are not biased for them but for nhvidia fans is biased, so is pretty easy to see pro nvidia, amd people. Now half, half means its not biased to neither side.
Well, people that stop and think for a minute would want a review to represent the ratio of dx11 to dx12 games that are out there in the wild and played by many people.

This gives a good idea of what a card will perform like for people. Nvidia users don’t all play DX11 games only and AMD users don’t play DX12 games only. Neither do either side only ply DX11 games that are optimized for one or the other.

Why? Because gamers want to play games, and we don’t play games based only on the aforementioned criteria. Since we want to know how it performs, we want it tested all around. Sometimes this favors one or the other, but it shouldn’t matter. You know what to expect. And really, the differences are rarely so great that one GPU or another is unable to play most all games.

So, the broad cross section represents the gaming spectrum fairly well.
 
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Wish there were good list to get to see what recent games have most PC sales .... Looking at this list ... was dissappointed to see how few titles that are post 2017 near the top of the list.... (MMOs) mostly not listed ... but it seems the selection criteria is flexible to say the least .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_games

1. PUG (42 million)
2. The Forest (5)
3. Rust (5)
4. Stickfight: The Game (4)
5. Cuphead (1)
6. Divinity Original Sin 2 (1)
7. Hollow Knight (1)

2. Would you consider revisiting the card if EKWB or other manufacturer did a full cover water block for the card? (to see if it helped both stock and OC results..)
I don't see it changing much based upon the review temp results, it's only 76C under load, but it wasn't mentioned at what point throttling kicks in. wasn't so long ago, that AMD cards outta the box were hitting 95C

I hope not because that metric is really only good for comparing cards in the same bracket. There are only two possible metrics that really matter. Price and Performance. Cards can have great price to performance and great performance but if it you can't afford it, what good is it? Conversely, a card can have great price to performance and a great price but if it doesn't have the performance you need, what good is it?
To some extent yes .... but to use a car analogy, if 2 cars you are considering are both equal for your top 2 criteria, but .....

a) both accelerate 0 - 60 the same but one is 19.5 mpg and one is 16.0 (one weighs more and has larger, less efficient engine)
b) one requires premium fuel at extra cost, one doesn't
c) one has excessive wind noise, one doesn't (this assumes spouse not in car in both cases) ... just typed that cause wife was reading over my shoulder, and yes i got punched in shoulder
d) one has AC and one doesn't ... yeah, ya don't need it that often, only 2 months of the year, but if both cost the same ....

So, for me anyway, while performance is the 1st criteria, cost sometimes 2nd .... when the 1st 2 don't create a significant difference, worthwhile to look at other things .... for me after those two:

3. OC ability
4. Other features (PhysX, RTX, Shadowplay)
5. Sound levels
6.a Temps under Load OC'd
6.b Heat generation in watts
7. Game Bundles
8.a Power usage (electric cost)
8.b PSU Size

And yes, feature support is certainly valid as a consideration. What McDonalds burger joint has the better deal ? ... the one a mile west with 1/4 pound burger for $2.00 or the one a mile east offering the same burger with free fries ? Ya can't say it's the same because **you** don't eat carbs. The postulation that not all games support a feature is irrelevant. If ya play games and use the feature in only 2, that's a better experience deliverd in 2 games at no extra cost. Again, if a car comes with an AC at no extra cost, is the fact that ya turn it on only in peak summer months make it any less welcome when it's 98F and ya stuck dead in traffic ?


Late to the party again.. I read that review and it doesn't jive with a lot of other reviews from unbiased sources. However W1zzard was using the "press release" driver which has been demonstrated to be problematic. It seems AMD may have jumped the gun on Radeon7's release as the drivers aren't quite retail ready. With a release of more refined drivers, I seems reasonable that Radeon7 will see a measurable improvement.
We have seen this before ... and this I think is to be expected to some extent. The 480 went thru a similar genesis and we saw new drivers that did improve the 480s performance significantly that made it compare better to the 1060, I recall an article here dedicated to that very topic. But like the all to common, "Well Card A overclocked is almost as fast as card B" statement, it fails to take into account that card B can be overclocked too. With the 480 / 1060 comparison, later nvidias driver updates managed to keep the 1060 ahead of the 480, again when both cards were manually overclocked .. this held for the 580 and even the 590 ... again, when all cards were manually overclocked. So perhaps the rush to get it out the door may have resulted in some early conclusions but a) to do that carelessly opens ones self up to bad 1st impressions which are hard to erase and b) I'd wager that the better reults came from the review using the IG demo which driver developers on both sides spend months tweaking future drivers for ... versus the wiz approach of picking a insttance and using it consistently for all cards and c) we have to remember that driver updates have been doing this leapfrog thing since the getgo when 2 cards under consideration are close.... In this case it seems a lot to make up for unless they original was unusually bad. In the recent past, I would have added that since the 7xxx series, AMD aggressively overclocks their cards in the box leaving little extra to gain when OCing manually, but with 2xxx, nVidia seems to have done the same thing with the 2070 and 2080 FE.

Radeon VII OC = 131.0 fps (+ 8.2%)
RTX 2070 FE OC = 138.7.0 fps (+ 8.1%)
RTX 2080 FE OC = 169.0 fps (+ 9.0%)


Well, to be honest, I don't feel like the Radeon VII is a bad card, or that there is a TPU bias towards Nvidia, after seeing the numbers here and on other sites. Another thing I'll add is that JayzTwoCents...
I gave jayz2cents a look many years ago and found many of his conclusions "out there"... especially on water cooling, but since the day he drilled thru his super expensive MoBo to mount a cooler, cutting the the boards circuit traces, he should have been banned from publishing anything.
 
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