Saturday, July 2nd 2016

Official Statement from AMD on the PCI-Express Overcurrent Issue

AMD sent us this statement in response to growing concern among our readers that the Radeon RX 480 graphics card violates PCI-Express power specification, by overdrawing power from its single 6-pin PCIe power connector and the PCI-Express slot. Combined, the total power budged of the card should be 150W, however, it was found to draw well over that power limit.

AMD has had out-of-spec power designs in the past with the Radeon R9 295X2, for example, but that card is targeted at buyers with reasonably good PSUs. The RX 480's target audience could face troubles powering the card. Below is AMD's statement on the matter. The company stated that it's working on a driver update that could cap the power at 150W. It will be interesting to see how that power-limit affects performance.
"As you know, we continuously tune our GPUs in order to maximize their performance within their given power envelopes and the speed of the memory interface, which in this case is an unprecedented 8 Gbps for GDDR5. Recently, we identified select scenarios where the tuning of some RX 480 boards was not optimal. Fortunately, we can adjust the GPU's tuning via software in order to resolve this issue. We are already testing a driver that implements a fix, and we will provide an update to the community on our progress on Tuesday (July 5, 2016)."
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358 Comments on Official Statement from AMD on the PCI-Express Overcurrent Issue

#26
$ReaPeR$
Ferrum Master, post: 3482412, member: 90058"
Lately every new tech product is plagued with some sort of issues due to haste... that's the electronics biz... it has been like that always really.
indeed!!

arbiter, post: 3482414, member: 106403"
Card has been out for what 3-4 days at most. if MB's died already from it image what rate could be in say 3 months, or 6 months, etc. That is the real issue.
i havent read anything about dead mobos, im not saying that this isnt an issue, i just dont think its a safety hazard either.
this should be helpful
Posted on Reply
#27
arbiter
$ReaPeR$, post: 3482419, member: 56172"
i havent read anything about dead mobos, im not saying that this isnt an issue, i just dont think its a safety hazard either.
this should be helpful

you haven't read anything about dead mobo's well some may not be dead dead, but it has messed up some and killed others, have a read. > https://community.amd.com/thread/202410
Posted on Reply
#28
the54thvoid
It is a definite problem and it's not so easy to say it's trivial. However, it's only going to affect a very few people (who own older spec boards without the required PCI-E magic to allow the extra pull through the lane). If the fix through drivers sorts it then the problem is gone - easy as that. It is a technical oversight on AMD's side that they 'flexed' power draw rules or they thought nobody would notice. This is very similar to the 3.5Gb issue where a technical issue was thought irrelevant and to be fair is to most users.
I imagine the most vocal protests will come from people who don't use RX 480's (ahem, Nvidia peeps) in the exact same way it was AMD users who had a field day over the 3.5Gb memory 'thing'.

It's a real thing that is being looked at, that affected few people, being hijacked by morons. Just like the 970 non issue.
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#29
ShurikN
Seems to me the custom boards will fix everything in a weeks time.
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#30
Massiverod
BEST CARD EVER FOR THE PRICE!! Every company has little setbacks with brand new products on the market. I can't wait to get mine!!! I can't wait, I can't wait!!!
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#31
RejZoR
the54thvoid, post: 3482422, member: 79251"
It is a definite problem and it's not so easy to say it's trivial. However, it's only going to affect a very few people (who own older spec boards without the required PCI-E magic to allow the extra pull through the lane). If the fix through drivers sorts it then the problem is gone - easy as that. It is a technical oversight on AMD's side that they 'flexed' power draw rules or they thought nobody would notice. This is very similar to the 3.5Gb issue where a technical issue was thought irrelevant and to be fair is to most users.
I imagine the most vocal protests will come from people who don't use RX 480's (ahem, Nvidia peeps) in the exact same way it was AMD users who had a field day over the 3.5Gb memory 'thing'.

It's a real thing that is being looked at, that affected few people, being hijacked by morons. Just like the 970 non issue.
You can't ever fix the 3.5 GB issue/nonsense. RX480 glitches can be and will be fixed. Just like GTX 1080 fan speed nonsense. It was stupid, we joked about it and they fixed it.
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#32
sith'ari
Massiverod, post: 3482446, member: 165702"
BEST CARD EVER FOR THE PRICE!! Every company has little setbacks with brand new products on the market. I can't wait to get mine!!! I can't wait, I can't wait!!!
Yeah, very cheap, especially if i have to give another +-100$ to replace my likely damaged/fried motherboard!!:fear:
No matter what people have said in this thread, that's the 1st time i read a review (*2 reviews actually, TPU & Tom's) that recognises the GPU as a possible threat for the rest of the hardware !!
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#33
newtekie1
Semi-Retired Folder
$ReaPeR$, post: 3482363, member: 56172"
on topic: this doesnt seem to be such a major problem, and i love how people have blown it way out of proportion, what do you think happens when you oc a card geniuses?
In a properly designed card that extra power is pulled from the external PCI-E power connectors. But properly designed cards are also built with extra power headroom, so even if you overclock you aren't likely to exceed the power rating of the connectors. That is why most cards that draw close to 150w usually come with either 2x6-pin or an 8-pin. If they would have just gone with a single 8-pin connector the card would have been good for up to 225w, and this wouldn't be an issue.

W1zzard, post: 3482393, member: 1"
bta seems asleep, I saw the email after crawling out of bed with my gf, so I thought "let's get this out to the people"


$ReaPeR$, post: 3482406, member: 56172"
i have seen it in practice. my point is since we havent seen many mobos die from this problem why all the panic?
I have seen a motherboard suffer damage, and a power supply die from this problem. Just not with the RX 480, rather it was a pair of GTX480s.
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#34
Tatty_One
Senior Moder@tor
I would think it will possibly be only a matter of hours before something is done assuming that a driver update would alleviate the issue, AMD know better than most that anything negative associated with a new product launch if not dealt with promptly could have long term implications.
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#35
ensabrenoir
.....to everyone who said its a non issue....please forward the good news to ail the users out there who have lost one/all their pcie lanes. Amd is known as a value brand so their is a lot of value boards out there....Do you think Amd is going to cut checks to the "FEW" that this did happen to? Maybe you all can come together and start a go fund me for them to replace their motherboard. Its only a non issue until it happens ro you..... AND NO DRIVER UPDATE IS GOING TO FIX THE ALREADY DAMAGED BOARDS.
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#36
RejZoR
sith'ari, post: 3482480, member: 152095"
Yeah, very cheap, especially if i have to give another +-100$ to replace my likely damaged/fried motherboard!!:fear:
No matter what people have said in this thread, that's the 1st time i read a review (*2 reviews actually, TPU & Tom's) that recognises the GPU as a possible threat for the rest of the hardware !!
It's almost as if NO ONE in this thread has actually read AMD's OFFICIAL statement... Drivers will address the excessive current draw from PCIe. Considering I'm fiddling with my GTX 980 that has similar fully configurable power control logic, I know it can be also controlled through driver (which is just an extension of BIOS). Meaning what AMD said isn't just load of BS and that it is a valid solution.

As for 8pin being a solution, just a small hint since everyone is screaming EVERYONE SHALL FOLLOW PCIe SPECS!!!!11111oneoneone. 8pin is actually not officially supported by PCI Express certifying body. Meaning, if card has 8pin power connector it's kinda violating PCIe specifications (well, not violating, just not following it). Dual 6pin, no problem. single 8pin or 6pin+8pin ain't officially supported by PCIe specifications.

Also, going single 6pin ensures maximum compatibility with wide range of PSU's. If you go with single 8pin, it's already questionable if target PSU's even have it. Because I think cheaper ones still only have just 6pin...
Posted on Reply
#37
jg_nwi
the54thvoid, post: 3482353, member: 79251"
Good they're addressing it but they can't blame the memory speed. The GTX 1070 runs at the 'unprecedented' 8Gbps.

Then again, not a huge issue as only really affected much older mobos?
From everything I've read, it's due to the fact that they attempted to gimp the PSU connections required to make the card available for the masses. Unfortunately, the ones that don't have the extra power are also the ones whose mobos are going to blow.
Posted on Reply
#38
$ReaPeR$
arbiter, post: 3482421, member: 106403"
you haven't read anything about dead mobo's well some may not be dead dead, but it has messed up some and killed others, have a read. > https://community.amd.com/thread/202410
i read alot in there, most of it was bullshit that cannot be checked, you cant guarantee objectivity in a forum where anyone can post anything.. again im not saying its not an issue, i just dont think its as big as people make it to be. and its affecting people with older hardware.
sith'ari, post: 3482480, member: 152095"
Yeah, very cheap, especially if i have to give another +-100$ to replace my likely damaged/fried motherboard!!:fear:
No matter what people have said in this thread, that's the 1st time i read a review (*2 reviews actually, TPU & Tom's) that recognises the GPU as a possible threat for the rest of the hardware !!
are you serious? your 750ti is already bottle-necked by your ancient system and you would buy this card?! that would be a waste of money, and i dont think you would do that, you are just whining with no reason whatsoever. and since you think that amd is the devil for killing little baby seals..
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/862417/windows-10-geforce-drivers-are-killing-samsung-and-lg-notebook-lcd-display-panels/
Posted on Reply
#39
sith'ari
RejZoR, post: 3482489, member: 1515"
It's almost as if NO ONE in this thread has actually read AMD's OFFICIAL statement... Drivers will address the excessive current draw from PCIe. ...................................
1)I'm sorry but untill AMD release these drivers and fix this problem, i will continue to consider it as an existing problem.
2) Through drivers they will likely undervolt the card right? won't this reduce the performance? i think it's the obvious outcome.
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#40
Basard
WhyCry, post: 3482357, member: 108724"
You don't always see Wizzard making a news post.
On a Saturday!
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#41
newtekie1
Semi-Retired Folder
RejZoR, post: 3482489, member: 1515"
As for 8pin being a solution, just a small hint since everyone is screaming EVERYONE SHALL FOLLOW PCIe SPECS!!!!11111oneoneone. 8pin is actually not officially supported by PCI Express certifying body. Meaning, if card has 8pin power connector it's kinda violating PCIe specifications (well, not violating, just not following it). Dual 6pin, no problem. single 8pin or 6pin+8pin ain't officially supported by PCIe specifications.
You are combining two different statements, made by different people, and trying to say they are both invalid because they contradict each other. The point is that power specifications for the different connectors should be adhered to, and this isn't the first time AMD has ignored them(to be fair nVidia has done it in the past too). It doesn't matter that the 8-pin isn't officially supported by PCI-SIG, the 8-pin connector's power capability is specified in the ATX spec, just like the 6-pin connector, and any other connector on your PSU. Those are the specs we should be following for those connectors. PCI-SIG set the power limit for the PCI-E connector, because they created it, and for that connector we should follow their specification of max 75w.

RejZoR, post: 3482489, member: 1515"
Also, going single 6pin ensures maximum compatibility with wide range of PSU's. If you go with single 8pin, it's already questionable if target PSU's even have it. Because I think cheaper ones still only have just 6pin...
There is a lot wrong with this statement. No one running a PSU with just a single 6-pin should be running this card. When you have the likes of the bottom of the barrel $30 eVGA 430w that has a 8-pin, if your PSU doesn't have an 8-pin at this point, it's shit. Go buy a new one, it's only $30!

Plus, if the PSU only has a single 6-pin it is probably very close to the edge of actually being able to provide enough power to actually use that 6-pin, so going over spec on power consumption is probably a very bad thing. You're talking about generic shit units that might be rated for 500w, but probably can't do 250w reliably. Do you really think people with those types of power supplies should be using a card that consumes 170w?

Do you really think AMD wanted people with those types of units to use the card? I don't. I think the real reason behind the single 6-pin was marketing. They wanted to hype the card, to say "look at how power efficient it is, it only uses a single 6-pin!" But it backfired on them.
Posted on Reply
#42
sith'ari
$ReaPeR$, post: 3482497, member: 56172"
.......................
are you serious? your 750ti is already bottle-necked by your ancient system and you would buy this card?! that would be a waste of money, and i dont think you would do that, you are just whining with no reason whatsoever. and since you think that amd is the devil for killing little baby seals..
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/862417/windows-10-geforce-drivers-are-killing-samsung-and-lg-notebook-lcd-display-panels/
-Buddy, my system remains ancient for a certain reason. If i would like, i could replace it within a heartbeat! it's not a question of money!
-P.S. I won't hide my feelings for AMD. I clearly remember the period before FuryX's release. They have been brainwashing us for months about the tremendeous capabilities of the HBM memory, making us believe that they will release somekind of rocket instead of a GPU that will destroy every competition!! And when they finally released this "rocket" it would struggle to surpass a 980Ti reference model !! EDIT: This was the LAST time i took them seriously!!
Posted on Reply
#43
McSteel
RejZoR, post: 3482489, member: 1515"
It's almost as if NO ONE in this thread has actually read AMD's OFFICIAL statement... Drivers will address the excessive current draw from PCIe. Considering I'm fiddling with my GTX 980 that has similar fully configurable power control logic, I know it can be also controlled through driver (which is just an extension of BIOS). Meaning what AMD said isn't just load of BS and that it is a valid solution.

As for 8pin being a solution, just a small hint since everyone is screaming EVERYONE SHALL FOLLOW PCIe SPECS!!!!11111oneoneone. 8pin is actually not officially supported by PCI Express certifying body. Meaning, if card has 8pin power connector it's kinda violating PCIe specifications (well, not violating, just not following it). Dual 6pin, no problem. single 8pin or 6pin+8pin ain't officially supported by PCIe specifications.

Also, going single 6pin ensures maximum compatibility with wide range of PSU's. If you go with single 8pin, it's already questionable if target PSU's even have it. Because I think cheaper ones still only have just 6pin...
Actually... 8-pin PCI-E does exist in the PCI specification, but it was never implemented as specified. Namely the additional two pins (as compared with 6-pin) were supposed to be used for the voltage sense and regulation signal return path. However, now both pins carry the GND/COM wires, which don't really help all that much with making power delivery more stable.

The real issue here is that the card seems to draw excessive amounts of power from the PCI-E slot, which is at most fed by two +12V wires on the 24-pin ATX connector, and those are meant for all +12V needs of the motherboard and all connected devices, sans the CPU. Add to that the fact that power traces leading to the PCI-E slot aren't normally very beefy; and the fact that there are only 5 flimsy less-than-paper-thin pins on the card accepting the delivered power and you have a situation where you really want to limit PCI-E slot power delivery as much as possible.

It would actually be fine if the card drew 120W from the 6-pin and up to 50W from the slot, the unnecessary drama would be far less pronounced.
The 6-pin may only be declared as 75W-capable; in reality it can handle the full 150W quoted for the 8-pin in the majority of cases... The only time it can't is if it's on a shitty PSU with wires thinner than 18AWG and cheaply made pins (like on a $15 Diablotek).

Which brings us to...

newtekie1, post: 3482501, member: 20670"
There is a lot wrong with this statement. No one running a PSU with just a single 6-pin should be running this card. When you have the likes of the bottom of the barrel $30 eVGA 430w that has a 8-pin, if your PSU doesn't have an 8-pin at this point, it's shit. Go buy a new one, it's only $30!

Plus, if the PSU only has a single 6-pin it is probably very close to the edge of actually being able to provide enough power to actually use that 6-pin, so going over spec on power consumption is probably a very bad thing. You're talking about generic shit units that might be rated for 500w, but probably can't do 250w reliably. Do you really think people with those types of power supplies should be using a card that consumes 170w?

Do you really think AMD wanted people with those types of units to use the card? I don't. I think the real reason behind the single 6-pin was marketing. They wanted to hype the card, to say "look at how power efficient it is, it only uses a single 6-pin!" But it backfired on them.
Even the aforementioned Diablotek could handle powering one of these, paired with a latest-gen Skylake CPU, a couple sticks of RAM and some storage. It would all easily fit into a 250W envelope (absolute peak power draw, realistically less than that), which even the worst of the worst PSUs can manage, at least for a while.

That being said, everyone should have the common sense not to skimp on the PSU. No need to go crazy, a nice $30-or-so PSU from a reputable manufacturer should do fine, as @newtekie1 pointed out.
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#44
iO
Simply lowering the power target to like -10% or so by default should do the trick.

And they might limit OC capabilities in Overdrive drastically as the card still could violate the specs when OCed...
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#46
ZoneDymo
Oh well, I was disappointed in the card already....GTX1060 pls be good enough and affordable
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#47
Jism
This is such a storm in a glass of water....

If both the 6 pins and motherboard provide a 75W for a total of 150 watts, and the card exceeds at 166 watts, this means that 16 watts split by two (8 watts) is being pulled more then it should.

I think any motherboard is capable of doing more then 25 watts on top, otherwise that system or motherboard would already be at it's limits.
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#48
psyph3r
Recus, post: 3482367, member: 96809"
RIP AMD

http://seekingalpha.com/article/3985508-amds-polaris-revealed-overhyped-disaster

That's why AMD community is the worst.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/4qfwd4/rx480_fails_pcie_specification/?sort=new



Spreading BS that GTX 960 burning motherboards too.
http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/Power-Consumption-Concerns-Radeon-RX-480/Evaluating-ASUS-GTX-960-Strix
Well basically. It's not a big deal, the 960 does it way worse. You are blowing it out of proportion because people love to hate on AMD. This is like an action to head off the idiots at the pass. So people like you have one less reason to spread fear and FUD about amd for no reason. The situation in which the non issue happens is 4k on game that runs at 10fps...which no sane person would play at. Really, the nvidia community is the worst. Just be happy your cards are cheaper. Your video cards are not dogma.
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#49
ppn
ut to 25 watts from the slot or avoid the card. simple as that. i dun trust in power target - 10% solutions.
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#50
Bansaku
Why is this an issue? Both the GTX 750 Ti and the GTX 950 both drew significantly more than 75W from the PCI bus! In short bursts, there is absolutely no problem with brief power spikes. Shitty deal if you have an older/cheap mobo and this is an issue; Seriously, quality motherboards are dirt cheap!

:toast:
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