TheLostSwedeI wasn't name calling, Greece sold it's soul to the Chinese, alongside Italy. Both nations joined the belt and road initiative, that's a fact.
China wants ports, not airports. They even bought a few in Sweden, but somewhat underhanded as the government was unwilling to sell to them.

I was mistaken about Toshiba, but so was you...

So still owned by a Taiwanese company.

I don't get your last point. In jokes doesn't work if you're not in on it...

Open the link I pasted about Toshiba and see the date, then open the source in Wikipedia and see the date. mine's latter so Toshiba's Chinese.

Jokes are not for everyone, I assumed you from all people would be familiar with the saying of your spiritual leader Trump.

You clearly don't get what you are saying, when you say that we sold our soul by selling a port. If that was the definiton of selling ones soul, then what about countries that sold steel to Germany during WW2 or that sold their car makers to China? What about countries that gave sold everything but not to China?

RandallFlaggA lot of anti-american and pro-china sentiment.

That's not true. I don't want to see China doing well because their factories could have been ours :D
But... if you keep them poor, they will multiply like hares, so maybe it's better for everyone to invest in their wealth, so they start realising that they are too many for a single nation.

The US helps only selected countries which serves them as marketing in front of the whole rest world which sees virtually nothing good from them.
Eastern Europe included.

demian_viOpen the link I pasted about Toshiba and see the date, then open the source in Wikipedia and see the date. mine's latter so Toshiba's Chinese.

Jokes are not for everyone, I assumed you from all people would be familiar with the saying of your spiritual leader Trump.

You clearly don't get what you are saying, when you say that we sold our soul by selling a port. If that was the definiton of selling ones soul, then what about countries that sold steel to Germany during WW2 or that sold their car makers to China? What about countries that gave sold everything but not to China?

Tell me, how can a company be sold twice? I mean, if Compal still owns them, how can it be Chinese, as Compal is still Taiwanese?

Also, I'm well aware of Vestel, my brother use to work with them, as they made some OEM/ODM brand TVs for him. In fact, my parents have had a couple of Vestel branded models over the years because of it.

Dude, what are you smoking? The best thing that could happen right now, is if Trump, Putin, Xi and Bolsonaro all went and offed themselves.

And no, I don't get what you're saying. It was the American's that sold Volvo if that's what you're talking about.
As for the war, well, I wasn't born then, so I don't have much of a say in what happened, but I know my family at least didn't support the Germans.

I have also started doing my best, not to buy Chinese goods, although it's literally impossible.

ARFThat's not true. I don't want to see China doing well because their factories could have been ours :D
But... if you keep them poor, they will multiply like hares, so maybe it's better for everyone to invest in their wealth, so they start realising that they are too many for a single nation.

The US helps only selected countries which serves them as marketing in front of the whole rest world which sees virtually nothing good from them.
Eastern Europe included.

US foreign aid is mostly a bribe to get favorable policy decisions and support from other countries. If a country is taking our money why would they or anyone expect anything less.

There are better options than China to invest in - specifically countries that don't have governments that are polar opposite and likely to turn our own factories against us and our allies. Manufacturing in India has been taking off, for one, and they don't go around stealing IP for the most part. There's also Indonesia with a large population, Vietnam, Cambodia, and so on. China really needs to be left to rot on the vine.

demian_viDon't bother mentioning such complex things as spreading democrasy, everything wrong in the world is caused by China. they interfered in Afghanistan, they started WW2, did the Nanjing massacre, the war in Serbia, Middle East. not like the US who bring civilazation everywhere they go

At least most countries don't lock up their own citizens in concentration camps. Only a select few countries are into that kind of a thing.
Most countries also don't make their citizens "disappear" because they don't agree with the government.

RandallFlaggUS foreign aid is mostly a bribe to get favorable policy decisions and support from other countries. If a country is taking our money why would they or anyone expect anything less.

There are better options than China to invest in - specifically countries that don't have governments that are polar opposite and likely to turn our own factories against us and our allies. Manufacturing in India has been taking off, for one, and they don't go around stealing IP for the most part. There's also Indonesia with a large population, Vietnam, Cambodia, and so on. China really needs to be left to rot on the vine.

Not much hardware is being made in Indonesia so far. Most phones that are sold in India, are made in India. Apparently now without problems though, as at least Asus seems to have a massive QA problem there.
That said, a lot of Indonesians and Filipino work in Taiwan making motherboards, graphics cards and what not. Sadly they're not highly regarded in Taiwan and get treated like crap and many are almost indentured slaves due to the contracts they sign with the job brokers. One of many things that Taiwan has left to sort out.

TheLostSwedeTell me, how can a company be sold twice? I mean, if Compal still owns them, how can it be Chinese, as Compal is still Taiwanese?

Also, I'm well aware of Vestel, my brother use to work with them, as they made some OEM/ODM brand TVs for him. In fact, my parents have had a couple of Vestel branded models over the years because of it.

Dude, what are you smoking? The best thing that could happen right now, is if Trump, Putin, Xi and Bolsonaro all went and offed themselves.

And no, I don't get what you're saying. It was the American's that sold Volvo if that's what you're talking about.
As for the war, well, I wasn't born then, so I don't have much of a say in what happened, but I know my family at least didn't support the Germans.

I have also started doing my best, not to buy Chinese goods, although it's literally impossible.

Toshiba licensed their TVs to Compal and then they sold the entire business unit to HiSense. HiSense get the operations, factory, patents etc and the name for 40 years. Compla still sells in the US so they probably renewed their licensing. Vestel still sells in the UK, so they extended as well. Not sure where does HiSense sell, but its does own the old Toshiba Visual Solutions Corporation

I'm not smoking and I wouldn't go as far as wanting them to off themselves, just leave their ost would be nice.

Ok so you sold your soul to America then by selling Volvo, that's what you are basically saying and I disagree with that line of thought.

If you stop buying Chinese product you should also stop buying American, Russian and Brazilian as well. I don't do that, in sectors where there are no Greek products I just buy the best VFM one

I am happy to see them progressing, we need some competition for our big American tech giants (Intel and M$ in particular need to be brought down several pegs).

Hopefully in 5 years or so Western companies will have to lower prices instead of continually increasing them as they feel the heat from Chinese market rivals.

demian_vijust leave their ost would be nice.

Why should they leave their cheese?

I will buy Spanish olive oil for sure, it's the best, although there's also a very nice one from Tunisia that I have been getting.

All your data are belongs to us!

On the topic of companies moving manufacturing out of China.
www.gizmochina.com/2020/07/06/lg-raise-indian-smartphone-production-15x-diwali/

TheLostSwedeAs above, the processor IP is still from ARM, which is a British/Japanese company.


China is also a LOT poorer than the US+EU, so the population doesn't matter. Go outside any of the big cities and people live like they did in the US and Europe close to 100 years ago.

China has what's known as the 3-5-2 program, which means that by 2021, they want 80% off all locally used computers, to be made from parts that have been produced in China, by Chinese companies.
However, I doubt China will be dominating anything outside of China, too many countries are suspicious of Chinese tech. If there are no buyers, how could they dominate anything?

They already have a ton of Chinese made CPUs, most of them have never seen the light outside Chinese government agencies.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_China#Microprocessors

China has about 400 million population in the middle-class.

fynxerDoes not matter if they don't sell out side China now, they will in the future and sooner than you think.

China are closing in on 1.5 billion people [USA+EU together only have half the population of China] so it is a massive market, when they catch up in CPU tech they will be a force to recon with for real.

It is easy to dismiss China today BUT with their resent insane investments in memory, nand, cpu and ai we will start to feel the ripples of Chinese tech out in the world by 2025 and by 2030 they will be one of the dominating forces in the world market.

Note that Chinese investment in these areas have been very low in the past BUT now with Trump screwing with the Chinese these past couple of years the Chinese have realized that they cannot be reliant on US tech and increased their investments a thousand fold to make them self's independent as soon as possible.

What Trump's ego did was to wake the sleeping dragon and now there is no way to put it back to sleep.

Wrong. www.forbes.com/sites/douglasbulloch/2016/10/12/protectionism-may-be-rising-around-the-world-but-in-china-it-never-went-away/#5dc3f5df73da
Protectionism May Be Rising Around The World, But In China It Never Went Away.

Trump administration pushed backed against CCP's existing "China 1st". Trump's ego has nothing to do with CCP's China 1st.

www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/06/16/world/china-loses-landmark-wto-dispute-eu/
China loses landmark WTO dispute against EU on China's market-economy status.

demian_viToshiba licensed their TVs to Compal and then they sold the entire business unit to HiSense. HiSense get the operations, factory, patents etc and the name for 40 years. Compla still sells in the US so they probably renewed their licensing. Vestel still sells in the UK, so they extended as well. Not sure where does HiSense sell, but its does own the old Toshiba Visual Solutions Corporation

I'm not smoking and I wouldn't go as far as wanting them to off themselves, just leave their ost would be nice.

Ok so you sold your soul to America then by selling Volvo, that's what you are basically saying and I disagree with that line of thought.

If you stop buying Chinese product you should also stop buying American, Russian and Brazilian as well. I don't do that, in sectors where there are no Greek products I just buy the best VFM one

AB Volvo sold Volvo Cars. Read en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo AB Volvo refocusing on heavy vehicles after selling Volvo Cars.

rvalenciaChina has about 400 million population in the middle-class.

Let's make sure we define middle-class. China's median income is just over $6000 USD per year while the average is $12800.

Before we start talking PPP, consider that you can put 11 chinese houses inside one average US house. To put that in perspective, that would mean the average chinese house is about the size of a medium sizedr bedroom, not including the bathroom. i.e. about 12x12 or so.

RandallFlaggCorrect, I had japan on my mind because I was looking at LCD plants. But yes, they used to call them the 'Asian Tigers' aka Japan / S Korea / Taiwan. This is where most of the real innovation in electronics is coming from, not from China.

I think they made a big mistake putting factories in China, all China does is steal their IP and ignore international law that should protect them, and nobody cares. If china were actually sued for all the IP infringement, they would either go broke in a heartbeat or be locked out of all international trade. It's that bad.

The Asian Tigers referred to HK, Singapore, Korea, and Taiwan. It meant emerging economies at the time, and Japan was already a major economic power when the term was coined.

According to my parents, who lived in Taiwan from the 60s. Taiwanese businesses also copied everything but the scale and quality was insignificant so no one really cared. Difference with China is that Taiwan wasn't as closed off and China could acknowledge IP only when doing international trade. Taiwan had to rely on the global market to have any meaningful sales number.
Not sure about the innovation, accordinh to friends who used to work for Innolux and AUO, what they do look at what the Japanese and Koreans are making a year ago and make a cheaper and bigger alternative.

TheLostSwedeOn the topic of companies moving manufacturing out of China.
www.gizmochina.com/2020/07/06/lg-raise-indian-smartphone-production-15x-diwali/

I have a few Taiwanese relatives who work for sports gear OEMs. They have been relocating to Vietnam (and Russia, to a much smaller extent) since 2017 iirc. Main reason being wages rising in China.

TheLostSwedeThat said, a lot of Indonesians and Filipino work in Taiwan making motherboards, graphics cards and what not. Sadly they're not highly regarded in Taiwan and get treated like crap and many are almost indentured slaves due to the contracts they sign with the job brokers. One of many things that Taiwan has left to sort out.

With how these countries treat Taiwan, I don't think it will dealt with in a hurry, sucks for the citizens who has nothing to do with BS politics.
Taiwanese businesses in China treat local staff like absolute shit as well, it's disgusting and I don't see anyone missing them when they are relocating to other countries. OTOH Korean companies, from what I've heard, treat people much more equally and respectfully.

RandallFlaggLet's make sure we define middle-class. China's median income is just over $6000 USD per year while the average is $12800.

Before we start talking PPP, consider that you can put 11 chinese houses inside one average US house. To put that in perspective, that would mean the average chinese house is about the size of a medium sizedr bedroom, not including the bathroom. i.e. about 12x12 or so.

Housing market in China is really messed up. With how kids get higher priority to be enrolled in prestigious schools if their parents own a house in the same sub-district. The market is flooded with "houses" with areas of a couple of square meters (no one actually live there) just to let children go to slightly better schools. It's a cultural thing. And it skewed the data horribly.

Cost of living is a real thing though, $1K USD a month in a major city in China is enough for living comfortably. Smaller cities probably need a fraction of that.

RandallFlaggLet's make sure we define middle-class. China's median income is just over $6000 USD per year while the average is $12800.

Before we start talking PPP, consider that you can put 11 chinese houses inside one average US house. To put that in perspective, that would mean the average chinese house is about the size of a medium sizedr bedroom, not including the bathroom. i.e. about 12x12 or so.

My argument is not about average which can skew the statistics.

www.china-briefing.com/news/chinas-middle-class-5-questions-answered
1. What is the size of China’s middle class?
Current estimates put the size of China’s middle class at 400 million people or 140 million households.

---------

China's middle-class market size rivals either US or EU. China's below the middle-class group is China's Latin America. China is a superpower.

rvalenciaMy argument is not about average which can skew the statistics.

www.china-briefing.com/news/chinas-middle-class-5-questions-answered
1. What is the size of China’s middle class?
Current estimates put the size of China’s middle class at 400 million people or 140 million households.

My point was real basic but if you need it spelled out, directly from the article you sited with emphasis added :

"...people earning a monthly income of RMB 2,000 (US$295) to RMB 5,000 (US$740) constituted as ‘middle income’ earners in China. This is far lower than the average in OECD countries. "

So to say that they have 400M people who are "middle class", that could be quite misleading depending on what people think "middle class" means. By western standards, China's middle class ("middle income earners") is very poor.

RandallFlaggUS foreign aid is mostly a bribe to get favorable policy decisions and support from other countries. If a country is taking our money why would they or anyone expect anything less.

There are better options than China to invest in - specifically countries that don't have governments that are polar opposite and likely to turn our own factories against us and our allies. Manufacturing in India has been taking off, for one, and they don't go around stealing IP for the most part. There's also Indonesia with a large population, Vietnam, Cambodia, and so on. China really needs to be left to rot on the vine.

This is so unfair :(
Do you know that all of these countries belong to Eurasian Economic Union (the competition of the EU), Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (the counter-organisation of NATO) and BRICS ?

Why don't you invest in Eastern Europe that is part of the European Union ? :mad: :kookoo: :confused: :eek:

TheLostSwedeWhy should they leave their cheese?

I will buy Spanish olive oil for sure, it's the best, although there's also a very nice one from Tunisia that I have been getting.

Wrong. The Greek is the best. Buy from Greece :D

RandallFlaggMy point was real basic but if you need it spelled out, directly from the article you sited with emphasis added :

"...people earning a monthly income of RMB 2,000 (US$295) to RMB 5,000 (US$740) constituted as ‘middle income’ earners in China. This is far lower than the average in OECD countries. "

So to say that they have 400M people who are "middle class", that could be quite misleading depending on what people think "middle class" means. By western standards, China's middle class ("middle income earners") is very poor.

Your argument is pointless since it doesn't show the proportion within that income range.

From www.businessinsider.com/chinas-middle-class-is-exploding-2016-8?IR=T
According to a study by consulting firm McKinsey & Company, 76 percent of China’s urban population will be considered middle class by 2022. That’s defined as urban households that earn US$9,000 – US$34,000 a year. (That might not sound like a lot, but adjusted for prices, it delivers a roughly comparable “middle class” existence to other countries.)

--------------------------

In terms of the gaming market revenue size where citizens spend on non-essential entertainment, China almost rivals the US.


Removing China's lower-income range, there is an indication China has near US population equivalent who spends on non-essential entertainment.

I wouldn't underestimate China.

ARFThis is so unfair :(
Do you know that all of these countries belong to Eurasian Economic Union (the competition of the EU), Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (the counter-organisation of NATO) and BRICS ?

Why don't you invest in Eastern Europe that is part of the European Union ? :mad: :kookoo: :confused: :eek:

Wrong. The Greek is the best. Buy from Greece :D

BRICS is effectively dead due to the following
1. Conflicts between India and China. India is creating its new alliance with Japan, Australia, Philippines, South Korea, Canada, and 'etc' i.e. anti--China countries or CPTPP member countries.
2. Brazil's pivot towards the West and NATO. Reminder, Brazil's population is nearly 49.4% white, 42.3% mix, 7.4% black, and 0.8% indigenous.

rvalenciaYour argument is pointless since it doesn't show the proportion within that income range.

From www.businessinsider.com/chinas-middle-class-is-exploding-2016-8?IR=T
According to a study by consulting firm McKinsey & Company, 76 percent of China’s urban population will be considered middle class by 2022. That’s defined as urban households that earn US$9,000 – US$34,000 a year. (That might not sound like a lot, but adjusted for prices, it delivers a roughly comparable “middle class” existence to other countries.)

LOL! For one, you're not too good at math. Try fact checking those numbers against a median income of $6500/year.

For another, you might want to check sources a bit. McKinsey & Company is the source for your link. Here's a bit of information on McKinsey & Company below.

Preview : Their corporate retreat was right next to a Chinese Uighur concentration camp.

www.businessinsider.com/mckinsey-china-uighur-corporate-retreat-china2018-12

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/mckinsey-how-does-it-always-get-away-with-it-9113484.html

www.nytimes.com/2018/12/15/world/asia/mckinsey-china-russia.html

www.nytimes.com/2019/02/01/business/purdue-pharma-mckinsey-oxycontin-opiods.html

RandallFlaggLOL! For one, you're not too good at math. Try fact checking those numbers against a median income of $6500/year.

For another, you might want to check sources a bit. McKinsey & Company is the source for your link. Here's a bit of information on McKinsey & Company below.

Preview : Their corporate retreat was right next to a Chinese Uighur concentration camp.

www.businessinsider.com/mckinsey-china-uighur-corporate-retreat-china2018-12

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/mckinsey-how-does-it-always-get-away-with-it-9113484.html

www.nytimes.com/2018/12/15/world/asia/mckinsey-china-russia.html

www.nytimes.com/2019/02/01/business/purdue-pharma-mckinsey-oxycontin-opiods.html

I would expect some of these messages deleted like mine was... Meanwhile you can keep your maga rhetoric freely

RandallFlaggLOL! For one, you're not too good at math. Try fact-checking those numbers against a median income of $6500/year.

For another, you might want to check sources a bit. McKinsey & Company is the source for your link. Here's a bit of information on McKinsey & Company below.

Preview : Their corporate retreat was right next to a Chinese Uighur concentration camp.

Your argument is weak when China has a non-essential gaming entertainment market that nearly rivals the US's non-essential gaming entertainment market. China has many poor citizens dragging statistics down which is like attaching Latin American countries to the US.

www.businessinsider.com/chinas-middle-class-is-exploding-2016-8
According to McKinsey, in 2012 54 percent of China’s urban households were considered “mass middle” class, meaning they earned between US$9,000 and US$16,000 per year. But by 2022, thanks to a growing number of higher-paying high-tech and service industry jobs, 54 percent will be classified as “upper middle” class – meaning they earn between US$16,000 and US$34,000 a year.


Again, it's unwise to underestimate China. This is why I posted the following link
www.forbes.com/sites/douglasbulloch/2016/10/12/protectionism-may-be-rising-around-the-world-but-in-china-it-never-went-away/#5dc3f5df73da
Protectionism May Be Rising Around The World, But In China It Never Went Away


US has inflated/greedy education and medical care sectors which are above CPI.