Tuesday, October 12th 2021

AMD Confirms "Zen 3" with 64 MB 3DV Cache for Q1-2022, "Zen 4" Later, PCIe Gen5 + DDR5

AMD today celebrated 5 Years of Ryzen, with a special video presentation by John Taylor, AMD Chief Marketing Officer, and Robert Hallock, Director of Technical Marketing. The company confirmed that its next Ryzen processors will come out only in Q1-2022. These processors will feature updated CPU core complex dies (CCDs) that combine the existing "Zen 3" microarchitecture with 64 MB of additional 3D Vertical Cache memory. AMD claims that this change improves performance by anywhere between 4% to 25% for games, amounting to the kind of performance uplifts you'd expect from a new processor generation.

AMD did not reveal whether the updated processors will be branded within the existing Ryzen 5000 series, or newer Ryzen 6000 series. If you remember, the "Zen+" microarchitecture enabled AMD to come up with a whole new generation, the Ryzen 2000 series, despite modest 4% IPC uplifts, albeit significant improvements to the boosting behavior, resulting in improved multi-threaded performance. What remains unclear is whether the updated "Zen 3" chips with 3DV Cache will herald a new platform, or whether these chips will be built on the existing Socket AM4 with DDR4 memory and PCI-Express Gen 4.
AMD's next truly next-generation Ryzen processor will come out within 2022, the company confirmed. Based on the new "Zen 4" microarchitecture, the company is targeting significant IPC uplifts, that will help it compete with Intel; but more importantly, introduce the new Socket AM5. An LGA package with 1,718 pins, AM5 will enable next-gen I/O. The "Zen 4" based next-gen Ryzen will indeed feature the combination of DDR5 memory and PCI-Express Gen 5, letting AMD level up to Intel on that front.

AMD's 2022 roadmap for desktop Ryzen processors looks quite similar to its 2020 roadmap. The company had initially refreshed its Ryzen 3000 series with a trio of Ryzen 3000XT SKUs that missed the mark of being viable stopgaps; but followed it up with the groundbreaking Ryzen 5000 "Zen 3" series toward the end of the year. 2021 will go down as an year without any new Ryzen processor generation.

Another aspect of Socket AM5 confirmed by AMD in the presentation was backwards compatibility of coolers with Socket AM4. You'll be able to retain your AM4-compatible coolers for AM5, without needing any adapters or upgrades to your coolers' retention modules.

As for a concrete response to Intel's Hybrid CPU core designs that the company will be pioneering on the desktop PC with "Alder Lake," AMD doesn't appear to be having a hybrid core design of its own, but hinted at the possibility that it is working on a new power-management solution built from the ground up, which will probably run a homogeneous set of CPU cores across very different performance/Watt bands, while retaining a consistent ISA. AMD has given this a rather uninteresting name—Power Management Framework.

Find the AMD presentation here:

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95 Comments on AMD Confirms "Zen 3" with 64 MB 3DV Cache for Q1-2022, "Zen 4" Later, PCIe Gen5 + DDR5

#51
AVATARAT
PYRO1125Currently using an ASrock x470 taichi with a 5950x and it's been amazing. Now being this is still Zen 3 and the same socket I don't see why this shouldn't work in all AMD 400 series boards. Did AMD say anything about 400 series being supported? Can't find any info about it.
I suppouse that Zen3+ will be available only for 500 chipset.
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#52
First Strike
freeagentI don't see what they wouldn't.. its probably the one thing they could carryover from AM5..
I think they may choose yield over cache when Apple is stilling hogging TSMC 5nm production, when this packaging technology is still new.
In that case, they can still use the process improvement to fit more cache in. But not as many as 3x though.
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#53
TheoneandonlyMrK
glsnwhy don't they make a skinned cpu, so it can watercool with the rising sealevel?
So we get moaning about school and this, on a tech forum, go you
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#54
AVATARAT
glsnwhy don't they make a skinned cpu, so it can watercool with the rising sealevel?
It's not so new but:

[URL='https://www.extremetech.com/computing/324625-tsmc-mulls-on-chip-water-cooling-for-future-high-performance-silicon']TSMC Mulls On-Chip Water-Cooling for Future High-Performance Silicon[/URL]

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#55
PYRO1125
AVATARATI suppouse that Zen3+ will be available only for 500 chipset.
Well crap lol I mean they should support it it's the same socket and still zen3, maybe if some board manufacturers make a beta bios
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#56
First Strike
zen3+ is delayed (compare to previous Q4 2021 / "before end of the year") and thus missing the holiday season. Alder Lake is also delayed to November. Chip shortages, meh.

Just hope those interesting chips next year won't be affected much. Most importantly, zen4.
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#57
AVATARAT
PYRO1125Well crap lol I mean they should support it it's the same socket and still zen3, maybe if some board manufacturers make a beta bios
EVGA join AMD with the last train, and they will produce only X570S, and because of that, I suppose this.
I can't see any other reason why they will produce AM4 at all.
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#58
PYRO1125
AVATARATEVGA join AMD with the last train, and they will produce only X570S, and because of that, I suppose this.
I can't see any other reason why they will produce AM4 at all.
Time will tell if ASRock will support the new zen3 chips or this will be the end of the line.
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#59
Ellertis
Nephilim666Did they say anything about threadripper? Surely the delays to that means they're implementing 3d cache with Zen 3 on trx40... Please AMD
Of course they are, if I recall correctly, it comes out
Minus InfinityGiven Cezanne is mentioned in the AMD roadmap as featuring Zen3+just like Warhol it seems certain to have 3D cache. They have the lower end Barcelo that will be Zen3 + Vega8, while Cezanne is Zen3+ + RDNA2. Some analysts have categforically stated Warhol/Cezanne will be AM4 only Zen4 is AM5.

I think the reason why Zen3+ is Q1 2022 is it's on 6nm, new node will need more time to get tested.
Zen 3+ is Rembrandt, and it has Rdna2
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#60
yotano211
Darmok N JaladConsidering that Adler Lake is not big.LITTLE across the product stack, I still wonder about the merits of the most powerful CPUs in the stack being the only ones with E cores, at least in desktop applications. Desktop CPUs already have good idle characteristics, and it’s not like you aren’t going to need a good PSU, motherboard, and cooler to get the most out of the best SKUs in the stack. Until we have hybrids across the entire stack, it just seems like it’s not going to matter on the desktop. Mobile might be another story, but even there one can get a really long unplugged experience under low to moderate use with what is already out there.
Intel still has to address their high idle watts on laptops. On battery power AMD kills it in battery length.
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#61
lexluthermiester
LabRat 891All highly expected news. Very excited nonetheless.
Hopefully the 12 and 16 core variants will adopt the 6900 and 6950 naming.
Why?
Because I'm immature.
I would call that logical, but what do I know, right?
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#62
InVasMani
Zen3+ will be on AM4 with official support on x570/x570S and likely B550 chipsets. I wouldn't expect it, but extended support for x470 and B450 by AIB's isn't entirely improbable as well. Beyond that point I'd be skeptical of it being supported short of bios mods similar to Z170 and coffee lake.

It would make no practical sense for AM4 to force a new chipset for Zen 3+ on a new socket then switch the socket support to DDR5 and/or another new chipset shortly after for Zen4. That's just added expensive and with supply logistics right now with chip shortages would be asinine as well.

Risking losing a CPU sale to Intel for a newer socket and low margin chipset that's still based around DDR4 isn't worth it unless Zen3+ also bumps up memory channel support beyond dual channel. If they went with triple/quad channel DDR4 it's a long shot far fetched possibility, but with chip shortages I doubt very much for that to be the case. Let's just consider x570/x570S/B550 chipset all, but confirmed for Zen3+ because odds it isn't are in the order of 10 to 1 or greater. I'd absolutely like to be wrong on this though. I really wouldn't mind at all.

No worries tomorrow we'll see a leaked rumor by AdoredTV re-hashing more or less exactly what I said above with rumor mill in full hype mode. There are only so many viable options can take with this and a Zen 3+ on a new chipset and socket for DDR4 that just dual channel and PCIE 4.0 would be viewed horribly and be a bad chess move at the same time especially with chip shortages. Some people literally wouldn't be able to afford that transition and AMD could lose a sale to Intel as a direct result of trying to force their hand on MB transition.
windwhirlLiquid immersive cooling of entire builds (mobo+CPU+RAM+etc.) is a thing, just so you know.
Submerged mineral oil builds are among the most fascinating think outside the box cooling builds to consider. As a enthusiast the different angles you can take with one are a fun consideration. The ways to go about and why you might do one methodology over another is fun to contemplate. In fact you could combine liquid cooling with radiator with it. You might submerge a SFF case that can mount a radiator on the top right into a fish tank. In turn that would allow you to pump heat thru the radiator to dissapate into the air so the mineral oil ambient temperature doesn't rise as much.
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#63
glsn
@TheoneandonlyMrK I don't see any rule that does prohibit what to post under profile updates. my previous comment was an half joke, what sort of comment do you expect to be under some news article?
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#64
ViperXTR
hmm i guess i wouldn't mind upgrading my 5800X to 6900X with 3d vcache after several years
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#65
sillyconjunkie
It's a logical move to stay competitive. TSMC delay is ~3 months (for equipment build-out) for 3nm runs at present. Apple isn't hogging production runs as they are scheduled in advance and different vendor runs are completed on dedicated lines with that much volume/demand.

One important item of note: The move to 3d cache will most likely result hotter running cores when compared with similar current offerings.

Cache is the only item being stacked in the update. To keep the die flat, the rest of the space is a layer of fill/empty silicon which will insulate the remaining elements of the cores from the IHS to some degree(s)..

Why not just make the die size larger? That would be better (cooler) but would necessitate a redesign. The second layer of cache piggybacks the substrate cache connections already in place in the current design.

Can't wait to see the results. Competition drives progress.
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#66
PLSG08
I'll be honest and ask why pcie 4.0 is just so quick lived? pcie 3.0 lasted quite a while but then pcie4.0 just lasted 2 generations. DDR5 support I kinda get, but why move to another PCIE spec if 4.0 hasn't been saturated yet?
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#67
Tomorrow
PLSG08I'll be honest and ask why pcie 4.0 is just so quick lived? pcie 3.0 lasted quite a while but then pcie4.0 just lasted 2 generations. DDR5 support I kinda get, but why move to another PCIE spec if 4.0 hasn't been saturated yet?
In terms of SSD's PCIe 4.0 is actually saturated already. We have SSD's that do nearly 7500MB/s reads and nearly 7000MB/s writes. Theoretical limit is 8000MB/s but due to encoding and signaling losses this will never be reached. GPU's were never really bottlenecked even by PCIe 3.0 (atleast with 8 or more lanes) nor do they benefit massively from 4.0, 5.0 or 6.0

There are always standards that are shortlived and other that are long standing. For example DDR2 was fairly shortlived. As was GDDR4.
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#68
Guwapo77
freeagentThis is one thing that annoys me with AMD. Cool now I can sell my less than a year old parts at a loss to have the latest and greatest :nutkick:
I'm in the same boat. When I bought the 5950x, I thought it was the last of the AM4 generation. Then I saw this v-cache crap...I must upgrade since I won't be apart of the AM5 crew until it matures. 4-25% is nothing to sneeze at either. So I'm right there with you... /sigh
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#69
freeagent
Guwapo77I'm in the same boat. When I bought the 5950x, I thought it was the last of the AM4 generation. Then I saw this v-cache crap...I must upgrade since I won't be apart of the AM5 crew until it matures. 4-25% is nothing to sneeze at either. So I'm right there with you... /sigh
That’s pretty much how I feel. Zen 3 was supposed to be the crown jewel for AM4.. not. I may just pass entirely on AM5.
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#70
lexluthermiester
freeagentZen 3 was supposed to be the crown jewel for AM4.. not.
Wait, what now? Zen 3 is bad-ass and makes most of what is on offer by Intel look like amateur-hour. I'm deeply confused by your statement...
freeagentI may just pass entirely on AM5.
THAT would be a mistake...
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#71
freeagent
lexluthermiesterWait, what now? Zen 3 is bad-ass and makes most of what is on offer by Intel look like amateur-hour. I'm deeply confused by your statement...


THAT would be a mistake...
That is all true, not going to contest that.. but I was under the assumption (ha) that Zen3 would be the cap to AM4, and no more after that.. I got comfy with that idea lol..
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#72
windwhirl
sillyconjunkieOne important item of note: The move to 3d cache will most likely result hotter running cores when compared with similar current offerings.
From what was said, the temperature difference is supposed to be rather negligible. I don't quite remember for sure, but I think the V-Cache was going to be put on top of the existing L3 cache area, not on top of the cores. And the cache apparently doesn't really heat up as much as the cores.
PLSG08I'll be honest and ask why pcie 4.0 is just so quick lived? pcie 3.0 lasted quite a while but then pcie4.0 just lasted 2 generations. DDR5 support I kinda get, but why move to another PCIE spec if 4.0 hasn't been saturated yet?
Enterprise wants PCIE5, and since Ryzen uses the same chiplets than EPYC, it could be available to consumers too, simply because the design is the same. However, that will also depend on board manufacturers being interested in offering it to mainstream consumer market, since PCIE5 has tighter requirements, which might drive the motherboard costs even higher.
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#73
_Flare
- Zen3D Q1 if said so explicit, means end of march, maybe early april
- AM5 "plattform" PCIe 5 able
- not clear if Zen4 is PCIe 5 able
- not clear if initial AM5 chipset is PCIe 5 able
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#74
lexluthermiester
freeagentThat is all true, not going to contest that.. but I was under the assumption (ha) that Zen3 would be the cap to AM4, and no more after that.. I got comfy with that idea lol..
Fair enough, but still confused. I thought Zen3 was the final iteration for AM4 and that Zen4 would be AM5 with DDR5 support. Is that not still true?
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#75
windwhirl
lexluthermiesterFair enough, but still confused. I thought Zen3 was the final iteration for AM4 and that Zen4 would be AM5 with DDR5 support. Is that not still true?
AFAIK, that's sorta true. This Zen3+VCache would be the last product series for AM4.
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