Tuesday, October 12th 2021

AMD Confirms "Zen 3" with 64 MB 3DV Cache for Q1-2022, "Zen 4" Later, PCIe Gen5 + DDR5

AMD today celebrated 5 Years of Ryzen, with a special video presentation by John Taylor, AMD Chief Marketing Officer, and Robert Hallock, Director of Technical Marketing. The company confirmed that its next Ryzen processors will come out only in Q1-2022. These processors will feature updated CPU core complex dies (CCDs) that combine the existing "Zen 3" microarchitecture with 64 MB of additional 3D Vertical Cache memory. AMD claims that this change improves performance by anywhere between 4% to 25% for games, amounting to the kind of performance uplifts you'd expect from a new processor generation.

AMD did not reveal whether the updated processors will be branded within the existing Ryzen 5000 series, or newer Ryzen 6000 series. If you remember, the "Zen+" microarchitecture enabled AMD to come up with a whole new generation, the Ryzen 2000 series, despite modest 4% IPC uplifts, albeit significant improvements to the boosting behavior, resulting in improved multi-threaded performance. What remains unclear is whether the updated "Zen 3" chips with 3DV Cache will herald a new platform, or whether these chips will be built on the existing Socket AM4 with DDR4 memory and PCI-Express Gen 4.
AMD's next truly next-generation Ryzen processor will come out within 2022, the company confirmed. Based on the new "Zen 4" microarchitecture, the company is targeting significant IPC uplifts, that will help it compete with Intel; but more importantly, introduce the new Socket AM5. An LGA package with 1,718 pins, AM5 will enable next-gen I/O. The "Zen 4" based next-gen Ryzen will indeed feature the combination of DDR5 memory and PCI-Express Gen 5, letting AMD level up to Intel on that front.

AMD's 2022 roadmap for desktop Ryzen processors looks quite similar to its 2020 roadmap. The company had initially refreshed its Ryzen 3000 series with a trio of Ryzen 3000XT SKUs that missed the mark of being viable stopgaps; but followed it up with the groundbreaking Ryzen 5000 "Zen 3" series toward the end of the year. 2021 will go down as an year without any new Ryzen processor generation.

Another aspect of Socket AM5 confirmed by AMD in the presentation was backwards compatibility of coolers with Socket AM4. You'll be able to retain your AM4-compatible coolers for AM5, without needing any adapters or upgrades to your coolers' retention modules.

As for a concrete response to Intel's Hybrid CPU core designs that the company will be pioneering on the desktop PC with "Alder Lake," AMD doesn't appear to be having a hybrid core design of its own, but hinted at the possibility that it is working on a new power-management solution built from the ground up, which will probably run a homogeneous set of CPU cores across very different performance/Watt bands, while retaining a consistent ISA. AMD has given this a rather uninteresting name—Power Management Framework.

Find the AMD presentation here:

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95 Comments on AMD Confirms "Zen 3" with 64 MB 3DV Cache for Q1-2022, "Zen 4" Later, PCIe Gen5 + DDR5

#76
AVATARAT
freeagentThat’s pretty much how I feel. Zen 3 was supposed to be the crown jewel for AM4.. not. I may just pass entirely on AM5.
Steps till now were Zen->Zen+ so we won't wonder that they release the Zen3+. The only lacking information was, whether they would do it on AM4 or put it on AM5.
It was supposed that these can be on AM4 because it is the refresh but at all, no one knows it.
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#77
InVasMani
Well there was the recent x570S I don't think that was coincidental. Seems like advanced planning just ahead of Zen 3+ launch. It's a way to offer something a little more modern than the X570 to people adopt Zen 3+ and a motherboard even though it's largely the same.
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#78
Erazor6000
mechtechProbably game dependant. I was kind of surprised that the 5800x vs the 5700g in borderlands 3 was about 20% difference, with basically the cache being the only major difference and clocks only a minor difference.
www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-ryzen-7-5700g/16.html
I found DOTA 2 to be a highly CPU-Intensive game, just like League of Legends.

Zen3 CPUs are an excellent choice for these two MOBA games, in which the fps do matter.
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#79
sillyconjunkie
windwhirlFrom what was said, the temperature difference is supposed to be rather negligible. I don't quite remember for sure, but I think the V-Cache was going to be put on top of the existing L3 cache area, not on top of the cores. And the cache apparently doesn't really heat up as much as the cores.
The temperature difference remains to be seen, obviously. You are correct regarding placement as previously stated. The different gate groups, with their associated logical functions, are arranged across a flat plane. With the update, there is now everything on one plane and then an additional stack of cache which sits higher than the remainder of the die design.

To use standard cooling methods and keep the die flat, all of the area which sits next to the raised layer of cache needs to be filled with something..ie..silicon. Silicon is not an ideal conductor of heat; transfers heat at a slower rate when compared to other materials. Additionally, the lower of the two cache arrangements will most certainly run warmer than the stack closest to the heatsink.

Negligible or not, stacking is not ideal. It's a move to curb ADL gains. I surmise the next iteration of Zen will begin to move away from disparate chiplets back to a more monolithic design.
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#80
windwhirl
sillyconjunkieNegligible or not, stacking is not ideal.
Can agree with that.
sillyconjunkieI surmise the next iteration of Zen will begin to move away from disparate chiplets back to a more monolithic design.
Seems unlikely, though I definitely think that AMD is considering trying to consolidate larger core numbers per chiplet. Though that will come more as a consequence of having good enough yields, IMO.
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#81
sillyconjunkie
windwhirlCan agree with that.

Seems unlikely, though I definitely think that AMD is considering trying to consolidate larger core numbers per chiplet. Though that will come more as a consequence of having good enough yields, IMO.
Regarding the first point. I'm sure AMD had the option to fill the (non-cache) gap with a thin layer of copper insulated by silicon. That option would transmit heat from lower layer to the IHS more efficiently but costs more to produce.

Regarding the second point.. Im pretty sure we're saying the same thing (again). Substrate Infinity fabric limitation is the long pole in the tent with the current design. DDR5 should facilitate faster fabric speeds but memory controller efficiency and fabric design come into play. Especially if denser core count chiplets are the go-forward plan. I'm interested to see what happens with TR. The lower core count Ryzen designs shouldn't be a huge issue.
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#83
freeagent
Well.. if these are going to be like XT CPU's then I will get one :D

My 3600XT was great, hope its new owner feels the same.

I just want that 2000 FCLK 1:1, and the cache :)
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#84
Wirko
sillyconjunkieRegarding the first point. I'm sure AMD had the option to fill the (non-cache) gap with a thin layer of copper insulated by silicon. That option would transmit heat from lower layer to the IHS more efficiently but costs more to produce.
A couple reasons why silicon might be a better choice, beside economics:
* issues with differences in thermal expansion between Cu and Si (you don't want to create a bimetallic strip)
* methods of bonding Si to Si may be less costly or less problematic than methods of bonding Si to Cu.
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#85
sillyconjunkie
Darmok N JaladRegarding thermals, the 3D cache is going to sit on top of the existing L3 cache, so the thermal hotspots of the CPU at least won’t be transmitting through anything but “thermally efficient” support silicon, according to AMD.

See the June 1 update on the link below.
www.anandtech.com/show/16725/amd-demonstrates-stacked-vcache-technology-2-tbsec-for-15-gaming
Damn marketing folks! They're gonna run hotter..period! You can mark, save, shortcut these words..
WirkoA couple reasons why silicon might be a better choice, beside economics:
* issues with differences in thermal expansion between Cu and Si (you don't want to create this)
* methods of bonding Si to Si may be less costly or less problematic than methods of bonding Si to Cu.
I know enough not to click on "this" links. If stacking was a viable, non-stop-gap solution, multiple chip designers would be using it already. Why is this so hard to understand without marketing blurbs and fancy words?

Are we doing the periodic table of elements now? Sweet!

Si is a go-to choice for processing dies because it doesn't "thermally expand". It retains its atomic structure when heat stressed (to a logical processor construction/operation threshold).

Si based dies are full of Cu traces! Why do yall insist on this bs spin gibberish..?
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#86
MWK
Thank God at least my x570 crosshair 8 hero can get a 2 years of CPU upgrade from a 3950x.
Games will be optimised better for rDNA 2 and Ryzen - Xbox series x and ps5 has a the cpu and GPU. Never underestimate AMD.
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#87
Wirko
sillyconjunkieI know enough not to click on "this" links.
Corrected.
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#88
Super XP
yotano211My guess is zen 3+ will be on AM4 socket.
Lets hope its not a AM4+ socket which would die off instantly after the new AM5 is released. AMD would do better to ensure this is a drop in processor. :D
lynx29I wish AMD would make more than one 6800m laptop... they literally only have one laptop with a zen cpu and 6800m gpu. its a bit silly considering how much time they have had...
Sometimes it feels like they have such opportunities & they don't seem to take advantage of them fully.
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#89
InVasMani
The L3 doesn't get significantly hot anyway relative to L2 and L1 cache. The portion that is added will draw heat towards the IHS either way and probably adds a degree or two of heat at best anyway which is more than a NVME sticker would help cool.
Super XPLets hope its not a AM4+ socket which would die off instantly after the new AM5 is released. AMD would do better to ensure this is a drop in processor. :D


Sometimes it feels like they have such opportunities & they don't seem to take advantage of them fully.
The alternative is AM4 dies off now. I don't think that's a better alternative. A lot of people could potentially upgrade from their AM4 board if supported. Yes MB lifespan for someone buying into AM4 motherboard with a Zen3+ chip is halted, but if the performance is good not a bad option especially if it's the best option consideration for the DDR4 memory standard for dual channel at least. Waiting on Zen 4 would probably be better, but also require DDR5. AMD Zen 4 doesn't support DDR4 however so Zen 3+ AM5 board that wouldn't be able to support Zen 4 either way due to the memory issue nor would the motherboard support Zen4. Here's yet another angle at the situation someone could buy a high end AM4 motherboard that supports Zen3+ and a earlier Ryzen chip and later upgrade to a higher end Zen 3+ chip and it wouldn't die off instantly yet provide them with a affordable upgrade path plus the weaker chip might get passed along to another person as a upgrade.
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#90
Super XP
InVasManiThe L3 doesn't get significantly hot anyway relative to L2 and L1 cache. The portion that is added will draw heat towards the IHS either way and probably adds a degree or two of heat at best anyway which is more than a NVME sticker would help cool.



The alternative is AM4 dies off now. I don't think that's a better alternative. A lot of people could potentially upgrade from their AM4 board if supported. Yes MB lifespan for someone buying into AM4 motherboard with a Zen3+ chip is halted, but if the performance is good not a bad option especially if it's the best option consideration for the DDR4 memory standard for dual channel at least. Waiting on Zen 4 would probably be better, but also require DDR5. AMD Zen 4 doesn't support DDR4 however so Zen 3+ AM5 board that wouldn't be able to support Zen 4 either way due to the memory issue nor would the motherboard support Zen4. Here's yet another angle at the situation someone could buy a high end AM4 motherboard that supports Zen3+ and a earlier Ryzen chip and later upgrade to a higher end Zen 3+ chip and it wouldn't die off instantly yet provide them with a affordable upgrade path plus the weaker chip might get passed along to another person as a upgrade.
My Sentiments Exactly
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#91
DonQuixoteIII
Lessee... AMD has, what, 4 different main sockets? AM4, WRX 8 and TRX4, and SP3. This bit of marketing fluff ONLY addressed the EOL AM4 socket. What about products for WRX8? Or TRX4? Not mentioned... Why?Because they come from the EPYC stack, and AMD can't fill the EPYC orders as it is. So don't talk about fight club, OK?
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#92
GURU7OF9
DonQuixoteIIILessee... AMD has, what, 4 different main sockets? AM4, WRX 8 and TRX4, and SP3. This bit of marketing fluff ONLY addressed the EOL AM4 socket. What about products for WRX8? Or TRX4? Not mentioned... Why?Because they come from the EPYC stack, and AMD can't fill the EPYC orders as it is. So don't talk about fight club, OK?
You are just being a dick up on your high horse!
It would be very hard for them to do fab orders. They have a limited supply from TSMC and if the product is super good then it probly won't be enough and throw in chip shortages, then its probly well short of the amount needed.
If the product is not so good then you have probly over ordered and will be stuck with excess and trying to flog it off to recoup some of your loss. They are not any where near as big especially financially as Intel who could absorb it much better . Plus they make their own chips.
If AMD weren't so successful with Epyc and Thread Ripper then Intel would still be shoving 4core cpus down our throats and make you pay through the nose!
It has reinvigorated a very stagnant industry!
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#93
RoutedScripter
Yeah kinda makes sense to polish the newer archs and give it more time and also not skimp out on PCIe5 like it was rumored to not be, one more AM4 upgrade is good because we can stick with Win10 and the older set, I don't want to move to Win11 anytime soon and even if AM5 and next gen goes ape-crazy mode with Win11-only, and besides for marketing if nothing else at least they can meme all the number fives, AM5, DDR5, PCIe5 ... tripple 5 actioooon!!!!

With the whole TPM and security obsession more programs could be locked out of support even if they don't necessairly need Win11 it self as an OS platform, it's really all subjective in programming what the program is designed to support and it's usually someone's decision to not support something, singleplayer games or those with SP modes shouldn't outright warrant all of this, only should enforce the requirement when multiplayer and anti-cheat's are launched.
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#94
trsttte
PLSG08I'll be honest and ask why pcie 4.0 is just so quick lived? pcie 3.0 lasted quite a while but then pcie4.0 just lasted 2 generations. DDR5 support I kinda get, but why move to another PCIE spec if 4.0 hasn't been saturated yet?
Because the development got several delays, by the time they finally shipped it 5.0 was almost out the door as well (the spec for 5.0 was ready before the first implementations of 4.0 even got to market)
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#95
InVasMani
Not to mention NVME changed the desire for faster PCIE speeds fairly dramatically. Even though it do a real lot on access latency beyond a SSD the bandwidth and I/O is still a lot higher so you reduce load times significantly especially at higher resolutions.
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