Blue4130Ok, now make your build 15x smaller so that it matches the steam machine. What is the new price of your build?

Screw making it smaller when it save me 100's+++ of dollers.

AusWolfNo. The Steam Machine is aimed at people who want a mini PC that's capable of gaming. With any other mini PC that costs the same, you get a far less capable system.

I'm sorry but no.

If you are referring to actual mini PC (barebones PCs), then there is some validity to your argument as those devices are indeed worse for gaming. In every other aspect, though, they are significantly superior. They are simply much better value. And they are actual PCs, unlike the Steam Machine.

AusWolfOn the other hand, equally powerful DIY systems are much bigger.

Depends on what you mean by "much bigger". Are talking about percentages larger or absolute volume?

I will concede that the Steam Machine is tiny at ~3.75 liters, and at that volume one would be very hard pressed to purchase or build a system that is as good at gaming as the Steam Machine is.
With that said, a DIY system for a similar price will not be prohibitively larger. One needs to be really, really lacking in space for the Steam Machine to be literally the only viable option.

Here is an alternative: get a gaming laptop for a similar amount of money and use it in clamshell-mode. It will have similar performance, it will actually be smaller (volume-wise), and you will have a device that you can carry around and use anywhere since it has a display, a keyboard, and a touchpad.

I understand that some people like the Steam Machine's concept. If these people want to purchase it, it is their prerogative as it is their money. However, these people should at least be honest with themselves and others regarding the Steam Machine's value.
In other words: if you want one, get it, but don't insult other people's intelligence by trying to explain how the Steam Machine is great value, because that is objectively false.

lexluthermiesterRight, it's not time I'm going to spend on something a LOT of user users have already done. I don't feel the need to join that particular chorus except to confirm is can be done, easily.

Those users have done the research from their perspective, and decided that the SM isn't worth their money, which is fine. That doesn't mean it isn't worth anyone else's money, either.

Like I said, I genuinely believe that the SM is a niche product, probably not worth 95% of the gaming community's attention. But from a mini PC perspective, it looks great. Mini PCs are a niche of their own, and the SM is a niche within that niche. Just to emphasise this point, mini-ITX parts aren't more expensive than bigger ATX ones because they contain more material, or offer more value. They are because they sell less.

lexluthermiesterOk, that's fair. What it isn't is good value for money. You do you.

Also fair, but again, not the good value option. Not even close.

It is from a mini PC point of view, which the vast majority of gamers don't care about, I get that. The thing is, no other option presented above, or in any other thread is a better value for money for my use case.
Besides, we've got a hobby to live for, haven't we? :)

lexluthermiesterIt's sure as hell not worth the $1700+ scalpers are skeeving for it.

That I agree with 100%.

I had an "either MSRP opening price or no deal" attitude with my 9070 XT, just like I do with the SM as well. I'd rather choose a different hobby than pay a penny to a scalper.

lexluthermiesterThen explain how you think this system is good value for the money? Other than the form-factor, there's not other real argument in favor of this system. And it's a weak one at that.

You just answered it yourself - the form factor. It's a weak argument for the vast majority. Not so much for me.
I imagine the SM on my bedside table for maximum comfort. I can't have a full desktop there, not even m-ITX.

NRANMI'm sorry but no.

If you are referring to actual mini PC (barebones PCs), then there is some validity to your argument as those devices are indeed worse for gaming. In every other aspect, though, they are significantly superior. They are simply much better value. And they are actual PCs, unlike the Steam Machine.

Well, I'm talking about the Minisforum X1 AI Pro, the Beelink SER10, or the Acemagic F5A. What exactly are you talking about?

NRANMDepends what you mean by "much bigger". Are talking about percentages larger or absolute volume?

I'm talking about desk footprint.

NRANMI will concede that the Steam Machine is tiny at ~3.75 liters, and at that volume one would be very hard pressed to purchase or build a system that is as good at gaming as the Steam Machine is.

Exactly.

NRANMWith that said, a DIY system for a similar price will not be prohibitively larger. One needs to be really, really lacking in space for the Steam Machine to be literally the only viable option.

10 litres vs 3.75 isn't exactly a small difference. If that 10 l fits, then get a 10 l desktop. I never said otherwise.

NRANMI understand that some people like the Steam Machine's concept. If these people want to purchase it, it is their prerogative as it is their money. However, these people should at least be honest with themselves and others regarding the Steam Machine's value.
In other words: if you want one, get it, but don't insult other people's intelligence by trying to explain how the Steam Machine is great value, because that is objectively false.

I'm not insulting other people's intelligence. I'm saying that a very small niche does exist where the Steam Machine makes sense. It sure as hell is a waste of time to look at for 95% of people, but still.

NRANMIf you are referring to actual mini PC (barebones PCs), then there is some validity to your argument as those devices are indeed worse for gaming. In every other aspect, though, they are significantly superior. They are simply much better value. And they are actual PCs, unlike the Steam Machine.

I agree here although high performance mini pc can fetch a high premium compared to a more standard desktop pc that will out perform it at a similar price level.

At that perspective mini pc value comparison isn’t that great much like a steam machines value comparison isn’t that great against a typical gaming pc.

Nobody is crying about the value disparity with mini pc (or laptop) so I don’t get why everyone is so worked up about steam machines pricing.

NRANMDepends on what you mean by "much bigger". Are talking about percentages larger or absolute volume?

I will concede that the Steam Machine is tiny at ~3.75 liters, and at that volume one would be very hard pressed to purchase or build a system that is as good at gaming as the Steam Machine is.
With that said, a DIY system for a similar price will not be prohibitively larger. One needs to be really, really lacking in space for the Steam Machine to be literally the only viable option.

7L was the smallest I could get with my ML09B build with standard parts including good gpu. If I remember correctly with 1u psu I think about 5L is about the smallest one can get with ITX without custom fabrication.

A problem going that small includes SFF gpu options aren’t great or somewhat limited supply or simply cost more than their larger form factor cousins.

Another problem is heat. Unlike mini pc or steam machine, standard parts builds are higher wattage. Cooling becomes a challenge for high wattage parts in a compact case. You might need to power limit for heat management, which also means giving up some value for those higher performing parts. The steam machine has an optimal cooling solution for it’s form factor.

NRANMHere is an alternative: get a gaming laptop for a similar amount of money and use it in clamshell-mode. It will have similar performance, it will actually be smaller (volume-wise), and you will have a device that you can carry around and use anywhere since it has a display, a keyboard, and a touchpad.

This is a good point.

AusWolfWell, I'm talking about the Minisforum X1 AI Pro, the Beelink SER10, or the Acemagic F5A. What exactly are you talking about?

I was thinking mainly of Gigabyte's BRIX line, e.g. the GB-BRU5-225H. It appears to be cheaper than the Steam Machine (if we strip away its SSD and memory), and while it has a weaker GPU, it is a noticeable upgrade in every other way.

AusWolfI'm talking about desk footprint.

Well, here it becomes a bit tricky. At least to me "footprint" implies horizontality, i.e. how wide and deep the device is, not how tall it is. A device can be tall, and still have a very small footprint. Examples are the Fractal Design Node 202 and Ridge cases, which can be used vertically. They can fit in some spaces that the Steam Machine cannot. Granted, those probably aren't many, but then again the spaces where only the Steam Machine would fit aren't many either.

AusWolf10 litres vs 3.75 isn't exactly a small difference. If that 10 l fits, then get a 10 l desktop. I never said otherwise.

I'm not insulting other people's intelligence. I'm saying that a very small niche does exist where the Steam Machine makes sense. It sure as hell is a waste of time to look at for 95% of people, but still.

The problem with the arguments coming from the Steam Machine's defenders is that they sound like this: "the Steam Machine is amazing and great value for everyone because it's small, and for its size it is the most performant device".
Instead of sounding like this: "the Steam Machine is an extremely niche product due to its price and hardware, it does make sense for some users but the overwhelming majority are almost certainly better off purchasing a gaming laptop or a ITX-based PC or a console".
I exaggerated the above to illustrate my point.

Yes, the Steam Machine is tiny, but that (its size) is the only it has going for it. Users pay a lot, both from a monetary standpoint, and from hardware and software standpoint, to get this form factor.

Also, I'm still not sure how much of an actual PC the Steam Machine is.
Sure, Valve says that they allow users to install any OS they want, but will it work? The CPU and GPU are "semi-custom" (as per the official specifications) so I'm not sure if the regular drivers for Windows would work. If only the SteamOS has proper drivers for the Steam Machine's hardware, then it isn't much of a PC.

Last but not least, the Steam Machine lacks a sound card. Now this isn't a catastrophical omission but there are still plenty of users who use analog speakers and/or headphones. This is yet another characteristic of the Steam Machine that reaffirms my belief that it was clearly intended to be used as a console, and the "it's also a PC" bullet point is just your typical marketing BS to avoid being classified as a console where it is more or less expected for it to be subsidized.

NRANMLast but not least, the Steam Machine lacks a sound card. Now this isn't a catastrophical omission but there are still plenty of users who use analog speakers and/or headphones. This is yet another characteristic of the Steam Machine that reaffirms my belief that it was clearly intended to be used as a console, and the "it's also a PC" bullet point is just your typical marketing BS to avoid being classified as a console where it is more or less expected for it to be subsidized.

So plug in a $9 apple dongle and get your 3.5mm port back?

NRANMAlso, I'm still not sure how much of an actual PC the Steam Machine is.
Sure, Valve says that they allow users to install any OS they want, but will it work? The CPU and GPU are "semi-custom" (as per the official specifications) so I'm not sure if the regular drivers for Windows would work. If only the SteamOS has proper drivers for the Steam Machine's hardware, then it isn't much of a PC.

"semi-custom" is still zen based and rdna based. All of the regular drivers will work fine. It is just an actual PC just using parts that aren't sold to individuals. The same thing that other OEM's do all the time.

NRANMI was thinking mainly of Gigabyte's BRIX line, e.g. the GB-BRU5-225H. It appears to be cheaper than the Steam Machine (if we strip away its SSD and memory), and while it has a weaker GPU, it is a noticeable upgrade in every other way.

The Arc 130T is a significantly slower iGPU, which defeats the whole point. I also don't understand what you mean by "noticeable upgrade in every other way".

NRANMWell, here it becomes a bit tricky. At least to me "footprint" implies horizontality, i.e. how wide and deep the device is, not how tall it is. A device can be tall, and still have a very small footprint. Examples are the Fractal Design Node 202 and Ridge cases, which can be used vertically. They can fit in some spaces that the Steam Machine cannot. Granted, those probably aren't many, but then again the spaces where only the Steam Machine would fit aren't many either.

Yes, I meant exactly that (horizonal space). That's why a laptop isn't a viable alternative, just like the SM isn't an alternative to a laptop, either. It's like comparing a family car to a pickup truck. The working principle is the same, but the use case is entirely different.

I know the cases you mentioned. I have a PC in a Fractal Mood in the living room, and I love it. While being very tall for an ITX case, that has the smallest footprint and most elegant appearance that I could get. It was quite expensive as well, which only shows how much of a niche small and elegant (and just different) systems are. With the living room being mainly the missus's space, I didn't have much of a choice. An ugly black aquarium or metal box is simply not an option there. However, the SM is much shorter than the Mood, with a slightly smaller footprint. Remember, the SM is smaller than a m-ITX motherboard, let alone an entire system.

NRANMThe problem with the arguments coming from the Steam Machine's defenders is that they sound like this: "the Steam Machine is amazing and great value for everyone because it's small, and for its size it is the most performant device".
Instead of sounding like this: "the Steam Machine is an extremely niche product due to its price and hardware, it does make sense for some users but the overwhelming majority are almost certainly better off purchasing a gaming laptop or a ITX-based PC or a console".
I exaggerated the above to illustrate my point.

Believe me, I'm not defending the SM. I'm only saying that I personally find it to be the best compromise between size and performance within a reasonable budget, and that it'll be a perfect fit for my bedside table for some occasional indie gaming in bed. Should any regular gamer make this compromise? Absolutely not. But for this purpose, I'm willing to.

Mini PCs are a small niche, mini gaming PCs are an even smaller one. Anyone looking for a regular (gaming) PC should look elsewhere.

NRANMYes, the Steam Machine is tiny, but that (its size) is the only it has going for it. Users pay a lot, both from a monetary standpoint, and from hardware and software standpoint, to get this form factor.

What do you mean "from a software standpoint"?

Other than that, yes. Size is the only appeal here, but to me personally, that's enough, as I don't think the premium is that great. I'll gladly sacrifice the roughly 30% performance compared to a 9060 XT if that gives me a system that I can carry with one hand (not that I want to carry it anywhere, but you know what I mean). It's a curiosity, and I love it for that. I would never suggest others to love it, too, however. You're either into mini PCs or you're not.

TL,DR: I agree with you guys that the SM is not good value for 95% of gamers. What I disagree with is that the other 5% shouldn't care eiter. Blanket statements like "just get a console" don't work for everyone.

NRANMAlso, I'm still not sure how much of an actual PC the Steam Machine is.
Sure, Valve says that they allow users to install any OS they want, but will it work? The CPU and GPU are "semi-custom" (as per the official specifications) so I'm not sure if the regular drivers for Windows would work. If only the SteamOS has proper drivers for the Steam Machine's hardware, then it isn't much of a PC.

It is still an x86 CPU just like any other (basically a R5 8400F), and a Navi 33 GPU. AMD's driver suite should recognise it. I'm sure there will be plenty of videos and blog posts about people attempting to install Windows and all sorts on it. Valve intended it to be a free system with the customer in control, and looking at the hardware, I have no reason to believe that's not the case.

NRANMLast but not least, the Steam Machine lacks a sound card. Now this isn't a catastrophical omission but there are still plenty of users who use analog speakers and/or headphones. This is yet another characteristic of the Steam Machine that reaffirms my belief that it was clearly intended to be used as a console, and the "it's also a PC" bullet point is just your typical marketing BS to avoid being classified as a console where it is more or less expected for it to be subsidized.

It's got audio within the GPU. Why is that a problem? The lack of a headphone jack is a bit of a bummer, I agree on that.

AusWolfOlder firmware? I don't have a PS5, so I would have to buy one now, do you realise that? Also, what about the warranty? I'm not buying a device to lose it straight away.

Do not get me wrong. I think you asked if there is a way to install something else, use the hardware for someting else. YES, playsation 5 with older firmware, when the user did not update, can be used for something else. Anything else I never wanted to argue or talk about.

-- --

several webpages have main artictles on how to build a cheaper Fake steam machine. we do not need to argue about that anymore.

the steam machine is much smaller, but what gamers nexus claim, the performance, waht i remembe rfrom that video was a ryzen 3600x or 3700x with was it a B580 / nvidia 3060 low quality graphics.

At the end of the day, i compare, how the box performs and not the specs. the steam machine has a massive cooling design issue. the steam machine was build for small form factor and to be quiet, very quiet. it was never build for 4k or high performance. it was build to play on cheap television sets in 720p resolutions in 30 hz. If you argue for 4k, okay I will argree on that, but I won't argue.

Even desktop boxes struggle in 4k, and if not, the next game will make current hardware struggle. i talk about the fake 4k 16:9 resolution and not the binary 4k resoultion.

I'm a bit surprised the topic has not cooled down by now. Does anyone claim the steam box is a good deal for it component prices in standard form factors?

If you want the steam operating system, pay a it specialst, not a windows it specialist to install it for you when you struggle with that.

-- i do not care on the componets. what i saw with microslop hardware, non standardised uefi gives a headache. i doubt the steammachine has standard uefi or libreboot. no uefi, no luck.

_roman_Do not get me wrong. I think you asked if there is a way to install something else, use the hardware for someting else. YES, playsation 5 with older firmware, when the user did not update, can be used for something else. Anything else I never wanted to argue or talk about.

Oh no, I didn't ask. Sorry if my replies caused confusion. I merely stated that the PS5, as well as any other console, is useless to me simply for not being a PC.

_roman_several webpages have main artictles on how to build a cheaper Fake steam machine. we do not need to argue about that anymore.

the steam machine is much smaller, but what gamers nexus claim, the performance, waht i remembe rfrom that video was a ryzen 3600x or 3700x with was it a B580 / nvidia 3060 low quality graphics.

Yes, you can build a similar, albeit much bigger system. If that's your goal, then go for it.

As for me, I already have a powerful desktop PC, I don't need another one. I just need something small to replace my 4th gen i7 + GT 1030 in the bedroom for some indie gaming and video playback. The SM being smaller is a plus, too, at least I can put it onto my bedside table for maximum convenience. Totally unique use case, but not something that doesn't exist.

_roman_At the end of the day, i compare, how the box performs and not the specs. the steam machine has a massive cooling design issue. the steam machine was build for small form factor and to be quiet, very quiet. it was never build for 4k or high performance. it was build to play on cheap television sets in 720p resolutions in 30 hz. If you argue for 4k, okay I will argree on that, but I won't argue.

That's not a cooling design issue. In the Gamer's Nexus review, it barely reached 60 °C on both the CPU and GPU. It's a marketing issue - the SM is simply not a 4k gaming device, at least not in the newest games.

_roman_I'm a bit surprised the topic has not cooled down by now. Does anyone claim the steam box is a good deal for it component prices in standard form factors?

Well, this has just dropped:
videocardz.com/newz/steamos-now-offered-with-new-gaming-prebuilt-pcs

Based on this, decide for yourself. Personally, I'm not comparing the SM to a full desktop PC because of apples and oranges. That is, if you're looking at a full desktop PC then you were never interested in the SM, or any other mini PC to begin with. Pretending otherwise would be a waste of your time.

_roman_If you want the steam operating system, pay a it specialst, not a windows it specialist to install it for you when you struggle with that.

-- i do not care on the componets. what i saw with microslop hardware, non standardised uefi gives a headache. i doubt the steammachine has standard uefi or libreboot. no uefi, no luck.

If the PS5's non standard hardware isn't an issue to install a regular PC OS on like you suggested, then why would the SM's hardware (that is much closer to a regular PC) be an issue with Windows?

NRANMAnd they are actual PCs, unlike the Steam Machine.

I'm not really interested in joining the rest of the debate at large, here, but I am curious about this one quote: in what way is a Steam Machine not an "actual" PC?

Blue4130So plug in a $9 apple dongle and get your 3.5mm port back?

Look, I didn't claim this was a huge issue. I simply pointed it out because no one seems to have mentioned it and because it is simply yet another thing that it lacks compared to virtually any other PC.

Blue4130"semi-custom" is still zen based and rdna based. All of the regular drivers will work fine. It is just an actual PC just using parts that aren't sold to individuals. The same thing that other OEM's do all the time.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. It does seem like this should be the case, yes, but until it's verified, I'm not taking Valve word for it. I treat Valve like a giant soulless corporation (because it is) so I never trust it implicitly. Need I remind you that Valve recently backpedaled on the "4K@60FPS" part?

If the Steam Machine does indeed behave like a PC, then great. I would still like more control in BIOS but let's be generous, and let that one slide. But until this aspect about the Steam Machine is confirmed, I'm not assuming automatically that it is indeed exactly like a PC.

AusWolfThe Arc 130T is a significantly slower iGPU, which defeats the whole point. I also don't understand what you mean by "noticeable upgrade in every other way".

Yes, I never claimed the Arc 130T was as or more powerful than what the Steam Machine has. I even outright said it was worse.
I meant that everything else is better in the Gigabyte BRIX GB-BRU5-225H:
- noticeably better CPU;
- potentially double the display outputs (if one is willing to sacrifice USB Type-C ports for that);
- actual HDMI 2.1 outputs so one can actually run a 4K display at a high refresh rate at RGB/4:4:4;
- more USB ports in total, including a USB 4 port;
- two M.2 slots;
- 2.5 Gbit ethernet;
- Wi-Fi 7;
- sound card/analog output;
- VESA mount so it can be mounted on the back of a TV or monitor so it can take no space on one's desk (should space really be that little).

And this thing seems to cost less than the Steam Machine (without the SSD and memory).

Again, its GPU is definitely worse, and the device is bad for gaming. I already said that. But as a general-purpose PC, this is much better than a Steam Machine.

AusWolfYes, I meant exactly that (horizonal space). That's why a laptop isn't a viable alternative, just like the SM isn't an alternative to a laptop, either. It's like comparing a family car to a pickup truck. The working principle is the same, but the use case is entirely different.

A laptop can be a viable alternative. Sure, not always. But volume-wise it's smaller than the Steam Machine. If you use it in clamshell mode, you can just slide it under the TV. Can't do that with the Steam Machine.
What I'm trying to explain is that which device would fit is different for every room, and a situation where the Steam Machine is the only option that would fit would be very rare.

AusWolfBelieve me, I'm not defending the SM. I'm only saying that I personally find it to be the best compromise between size and performance within a reasonable budget, and that it'll be a perfect fit for my bedside table for some occasional indie gaming in bed. Should any regular gamer make this compromise? Absolutely not. But for this purpose, I'm willing to.

Oh, it definitely sounds like you are defending the Steam Machine.
But here is the crux: while I also consider it a very good compromise between size and performance, I most definitely do not consider it within a reasonable budget.
If it works for you and you are willing to spend the money, fine, but from your posts so far I was getting the impression you consider the Steam Machine objectively reasonably priced, and not subjectively.

AusWolfWhat do you mean "from a software standpoint"?

Mostly BIOS, it seems to be very limited. But also potentially drivers in other operating systems.
Yes, I get it, technically it should work, but I don't trust Valve implicitly (just like I don't trust Intel, AMD, NVIDIA, Microsoft, Google, etc., you get the idea) so until it is verified, I consider that aspect of the Steam Machine a liability.

AusWolfTL,DR: I agree with you guys that the SM is not good value for 95% of gamers. What I disagree with is that the other 5% shouldn't care eiter. Blanket statements like "just get a console" don't work for everyone.

I never said the remaining 5% shouldn't care.
I am all for having more options. Competition is good.

What I strongly oppose is misleading the end-user. I'm not referring to you, I'm referring to various tech outlets in general.
When they review the Steam Machine, they need to be clear that this thing is bad value at that price, something like "the Steam Machine has its place but be advised that its price/hardware ratio is bad, and that you are paying a very high premium for the size and brand".
And right now I feel that outlets are going soft or downright praising it.

Take the RTX 5050. Is that a good GPU at ~300 USD? Is it a good value?
No, it's terrible value. Even though one can make similar arguments about it: it can be a very small card so it can fit in a very small ITX build, it is efficient and easy to cool, it still has access to upscaling, etc., yet the reviews were brutal.

I simply hate the double standard.
What if Epic released the exact same product as the Steam Machine at the exact same price, and called it the Epic Cube? What would the reception have been?
I'm willing to bet money it would have been torn to shreds.

AusWolfIt is still an x86 CPU just like any other (basically a R5 8400F), and a Navi 33 GPU. AMD's driver suite should recognise it. I'm sure there will be plenty of videos and blog posts about people attempting to install Windows and all sorts on it. Valve intended it to be a free system with the customer in control, and looking at the hardware, I have no reason to believe that's not the case.

The operative word here being "should". But like I explained before, I do give it the benefit of the doubt as I also think it should work, but I need confirmation.

AusWolfIt's got audio within the GPU. Why is that a problem? The lack of a headphone jack is a bit of a bummer, I agree on that.

It has no analog outputs. I consider this a minor issue overall. If it is used as a console, HDMI will transmit the audio to the TV/soundbar/AVR. If used as a PC, it's a bit more annoying as not all monitors have speakers and not everyone uses headphones/speakers via USB or Bluetooth.
Still, it is something that I think Valve should have provided, and is something that any other PC would have.

WastelandI'm not really interested in joining the rest of the debate at large, here, but I am curious about this one quote: in what way is a Steam Machine not an "actual" PC?

I misspoke. That is on me.
As I have explained in this post, I need verification that it can indeed function as a regular PC with proper driver compatibility. I am aware that on a technical level it should function as advertised. However, I reserve final judgement for when it's confirmed.

NRANMIf the Steam Machine does indeed behave like a PC, then great. I would still like more control in BIOS but let's be generous, and let that one slide. But until this aspect about the Steam Machine is confirmed, I'm not assuming automatically that it is indeed exactly like a PC.

It has already been confirmed (to act like a PC) Nearly EVERY review has also had sections about general computing using the desktop environment. Nobody has tried to put windows on it yet from what I can tell (embargo limitations maybe?) But people HAVE run general computing tasks. It behaves exactly like it should, given the specs.

Blue4130It has already been confirmed (to act like a PC) Nearly EVERY review has also had sections about general computing using the desktop environment. Nobody has tried to put windows on it yet from what I can tell (embargo limitations maybe?) But people HAVE run general computing tasks. It behaves exactly like it should, given the specs.

You have your threshold for confirmation, and I have mine.

NRANMYes, I never claimed the Arc 130T was as or more powerful than what the Steam Machine has. I even outright said it was worse.
I meant that everything else is better in the Gigabyte BRIX GB-BRU5-225H:
- noticeably better CPU;
- potentially double the display outputs (if one is willing to sacrifice USB Type-C ports for that);
- actual HDMI 2.1 outputs so one can actually run a 4K display at a high refresh rate at RGB/4:4:4;
- more USB ports in total, including a USB 4 port;
- two M.2 slots;
- 2.5 Gbit ethernet;
- Wi-Fi 7;
- sound card/analog output;
- VESA mount so it can be mounted on the back of a TV or monitor so it can take no space on one's desk (should space really be that little).

That all is also true of the Minisforum AI X1 that I talked about earlier, so I don't know why we had to go further with an Intel version. Like I said, I had the X1 in my Amazon basket before the SM launch, but I backtracked because the SM is better value regarding price vs gaming power.

NRANMAnd this thing seems to cost less than the Steam Machine (without the SSD and memory).

Comparing prices without RAM and SSD to the Steam Machine, especially in this day and age, is insane.

NRANMAgain, its GPU is definitely worse, and the device is bad for gaming. I already said that. But as a general-purpose PC, this is much better than a Steam Machine.

I don't need a general purpose PC.

NRANMA laptop can be a viable alternative. Sure, not always. But volume-wise it's smaller than the Steam Machine. If you use it in clamshell mode, you can just slide it under the TV. Can't do that with the Steam Machine.
What I'm trying to explain is that which device would fit is different for every room, and a situation where the Steam Machine is the only option that would fit would be very rare.

Apples to oranges. A laptop is smaller in volume, but has a much larger footprint. Sliding it under the TV doesn't make sense to me if you have to slide it out to turn it on. Also, I don't want to slide it under my TV. I want to place it on my bedside table. Like I said, I know my needs represent a small niche, but I'm sick and tired of everybody telling me what's better value. For my meds, nothing is better value. End of.

NRANMOh, it definitely sounds like you are defending the Steam Machine.
But here is the crux: while I also consider it a very good compromise between size and performance, I most definitely do not consider it within a reasonable budget.
If it works for you and you are willing to spend the money, fine, but from your posts so far I was getting the impression you consider the Steam Machine objectively reasonably priced, and not subjectively.

What is an objectively reasonable price? What do you compare it against? Laptops? The Steam Machine isn't a laptop. Desktops? Guess what, the Steam Machine isn't a full custom desktop PC, either. It's a slightly larger mini PC that's capable of light gaming. The mini PC market is the closest you can get in comparison, although it would be a valid point that the Steam Machine is slightly larger than other mini PCs. It is pretty much a device of its own kind. Are you ok with the size of a laptop or a desktop PC? Great, then get one instead of the SM. But saying that it's better value is like saying that a pickup truck is better value than a small hatchback because you get more car for your money. Well guess what, people in the market for a small hatchback don't need a pickup truck.

NRANMMostly BIOS, it seems to be very limited. But also potentially drivers in other operating systems.
Yes, I get it, technically it should work, but I don't trust Valve implicitly (just like I don't trust Intel, AMD, NVIDIA, Microsoft, Google, etc., you get the idea) so until it is verified, I consider that aspect of the Steam Machine a liability.

Since when is fully configurable settings in the BIOS a definition of a PC? How many things can you configure in the BIOS of a Dell prebuilt? Two? Yet, they are desktop PCs.

NRANMI never said the remaining 5% shouldn't care.
I am all for having more options. Competition is good.

Good.

NRANMWhat I strongly oppose is misleading the end-user. I'm not referring to you, I'm referring to various tech outlets in general.
When they review the Steam Machine, they need to be clear that this thing is bad value at that price, something like "the Steam Machine has its place but be advised that its price/hardware ratio is bad, and that you are paying a very high premium for the size and brand".
And right now I feel that outlets are going soft or downright praising it.

How do you define value? Performance per price? Size per price? Functionality per price? There is not one definition. Look at my above examples. Is a small hatchback bad value because you can't haul cargo with it? Or is a pickup truck bad value because you can't park it so easily on a busy street?

Value is what you're getting for your money. But that hugely depends on what you're looking for. You have to be honest with yourself. Are you looking for performance and upgradability? Then get a desktop PC, it's better value. Are you looking for portability? Then get a laptop, there's your value. People looking for a mini PC are probably not looking for either. It is a compromise, but that doesn't mean that there's no value there.

With your one-dimensional logic of value, laptops shouldn't exist because they offer far worse value (performance) than equally priced desktop PCs.

Apples to oranges.

NRANMTake the RTX 5050. Is that a good GPU at ~300 USD? Is it a good value?
No, it's terrible value. Even though one can make similar arguments about it: it can be a very small card so it can fit in a very small ITX build, it is efficient and easy to cool, it still has access to upscaling, etc., yet the reviews were brutal.

Bad example. You can scale graphics cards linearly to each other based on one metric. You can't do that with a mini PC against a normal one. Again, apples to oranges.

NRANMI simply hate the double standard.
What if Epic released the exact same product as the Steam Machine at the exact same price, and called it the Epic Cube? What would the reception have been?
I'm willing to bet money it would have been torn to shreds.

That depends on how open the platform is. If it's a regular mini PC and I'm free to install whatever I want on it, then bring it on. What I'm afraid of regarding Epic is that they would probably lock it to their own bullshit.

NRANMYou have your threshold for confirmation, and I have mine.

There is no threshold. SteamOS is a modified version of Arch Linux that comes with the KDE desktop with full functionality. Your posts screams lack of knowledge and lack of willingness to learn.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

AusWolfThat all is also true of the Minisforum AI X1 that I talked about earlier, so I don't know why we had to go further with an Intel version. Like I said, I had the X1 in my Amazon basket before the SM launch, but I backtracked because the SM is better value regarding price vs gaming power.

I didn't pick it because it was an Intel-based device. I picked it because of its designation, form factor, and price.

AusWolfComparing prices without RAM and SSD to the Steam Machine, especially in this day and age, is insane.

I needed to make a like-for-like comparison. A mini PC like the BRIX comes without memory and SSD so if I want to make a fair comparison, I need to either add memory and an SSD to the BRIX or "strip" them from the Steam Machine. I am shocked that I have to explain this to a person on a tech forum.
The end result is the same: the BRIX is cheaper while offering better everything, except for GPU performance.
Conclusion: if gaming is the only or primary goal, then yes the device I used as an example is a bad choice and actually worse value than the Steam Machine.
However, since the Steam Machine "is also a PC", I feel that I need to treat as such, so I don't compare only the gaming capabilities of both products but also the remaining aspects.
If the Steam Machine was marketed/touted/considered/intended as a console, then the comparison would be invalid but since it's a PC, well...

AusWolfI don't need a general purpose PC.

I got that. You made it clear. I was speaking in general.

AusWolfApples to oranges. A laptop is smaller in volume, but has a much larger footprint. Sliding it under the TV doesn't make sense to me if you have to slide it out to turn it on. Also, I don't want to slide it under my TV. I want to place it on my bedside table. Like I said, I know my needs represent a small niche, but I'm sick and tired of everybody telling me what's better value. For my meds, nothing is better value. End of.

For someone who acknowledges that your needs are a very small niche, you keep trying to defend the Steam Machine in general.

AusWolfWhat is an objectively reasonable price? What do you compare it against? Laptops? The Steam Machine isn't a laptop. Desktops? Guess what, the Steam Machine isn't a full custom desktop PC, either. It's a slightly larger mini PC that's capable of light gaming. The mini PC market is the closest you can get in comparison, although it would be a valid point that the Steam Machine is slightly larger than other mini PCs. It is pretty much a device of its own kind. Are you ok with the size of a laptop or a desktop PC? Great, then get one instead of the SM. But saying that it's better value is like saying that a pickup truck is better value than a small hatchback because you get more car for your money. Well guess what, people in the market for a small hatchback don't need a pickup truck.

Let's say 700-800 USD. It isn't a good price, but let's call it reasonable.
I'm comparing it against any other other device that is meant to perform similar functionality. I'm comparing to consoles because the way it's meant to be used very console-like. I'm comparing it to PCs (whether mini PCs or Desktop PCs, or laptops, since they are all PCs) because Valve and users here are telling me it's a PC.

Again, you can't just use "it's a PC" as a bullet point for the Steam Machine but then refuse to compare it to any other PC.

Are you implying that the Steam Machine cannot be criticized?
Because you cannot criticize it without comparing it to other devices.

Your car analogy is heavily flawed because the hatchback and pickup truck markets are separate. They don't compete with each other. A person looking to purchase a vehicle already knows generally what they need. A person looking for a vehicle that is able to carry large amounts of cargo isn't going to consider a hatchback, and a person looking for a simple and economical vehicle isn't going to look at pickup trucks.
The Steam Machine on the other hand is to compete with other products that are meant for gaming and/or general computing. How do I know this? Because Valve says so. It is on their product page and in their marketing material. Thus, it is fair to compare it to other devices that are meant for gaming and/or general consumer computing.

AusWolfSince when is fully configurable settings in the BIOS a definition of a PC? How many things can you configure in the BIOS of a Dell prebuilt? Two? Yet, they are desktop PCs.

Yes, OEM pre-built systems are definitely more option-limited when it comes to BIOS. Yet, they still offer more flexibility than the Steam Machine.

AusWolfHow do you define value? Performance per price? Size per price? Functionality per price? There is not one definition. Look at my above examples. Is a small hatchback bad value because you can't haul cargo with it? Or is a pickup truck bad value because you can't park it so easily on a busy street?

Value is what you're getting for your money. But that hugely depends on what you're looking for. You have to be honest with yourself. Are you looking for performance and upgradability? Then get a desktop PC, it's better value. Are you looking for portability? Then get a laptop, there's your value. People looking for a mini PC are probably not looking for either. It is a compromise, but that doesn't mean that there's no value there.

With your one-dimensional logic of value, laptops shouldn't exist because they offer far worse value (performance) than equally priced desktop PCs.

Apples to oranges.

Performance for the price, yes.
This is what is used as the primary metric across hardware reviews to determine if a product is generally good value.

As mentioned previously, your car analogy was flawed because the two types of vehicles do not directly compete with each other.
The Steam Machine will compete in some form or another with gaming laptops, desktop PCs, and consoles because those are the devices that perform the same primary goal: gaming and/or general PC usage.
Unless you are implying the Steam Machine is a completely unique product and cannot be put into any already existing category?
But if that is what you are implying, you are also implying it cannot be compared with anything else which again leads us to the conclusion that it cannot be criticized because there is nothing to compare it to.

How do you define value then?

AusWolfBad example. You can scale graphics cards linearly to each other based on one metric. You can't do that with a mini PC against a normal one. Again, apples to oranges.

Yes, you can. The metric of being able to play games at a given framerate. They are still PCs, right?

AusWolfThat depends on how open the platform is. If it's a regular mini PC and I'm free to install whatever I want on it, then bring it on. What I'm afraid of regarding Epic is that they would probably lock it to their own bullshit.

I cannot read your thoughts but I'm having an incredible difficulty believing that you (or virtually anyone else on this forum) would be OK with Epic (or any other large corporation) releasing a product with the same price, specifications, and purpose.

And yes, Epic would indeed most likely lock it down. That would mean that it would (or at least should) be marketed as a console, thus be compared much more with other consoles and not so much with PCs.

AusWolfThere is no threshold. SteamOS is a modified version of Arch Linux that comes with the KDE desktop with full functionality. Your posts screams lack of knowledge and lack of willingness to learn.

Reading comprehension?
What does this have to do with anything?
I'm aware that SteamOS is based on Arch Linux and that it uses KDE. That has nothing to do with the ability to be able to install and run other Linux distros or Windows.
In this particular case I'm referring to Windows. Will users be able to install Windows and drivers just like they can on any other PC?
Valve implies that would be possible. Users here claim that it would be exactly the case, and on a technical level it does appear perfectly plausible.
However, I haven't seen any proof of that.

And let me be clear. I am not saying that users should use Windows on the Steam Machine or that SteamOS is bad or anything of the sort. I just want a confirmation if Valve's claims are true or not.
When NVIDIA or AMD or Intel make certain claims about the performance of their CPUs or GPUs, we wait for reviews to verify those claims. Same thing here.

NRANMAre you being deliberately obtuse?


I didn't pick it because it was an Intel-based device. I picked it because of its designation, form factor, and price.

That's why I picked my examples that were obviously not good enough for you for some reason.

NRANMI needed to make a like-for-like comparison. A mini PC like the BRIX comes without memory and SSD so if I want to make a fair comparison, I need to either add memory and an SSD to the BRIX or "strip" them from the Steam Machine. I am shocked that I have to explain this to a person on a tech forum.
The end result is the same: the BRIX is cheaper while offering better everything, except for GPU performance.
Conclusion: if gaming is the only or primary goal, then yes the device I used as an example is a bad choice and actually worse value than the Steam Machine.
However, since the Steam Machine "is also a PC", I feel that I need to treat as such, so I don't compare only the gaming capabilities of both products but also the remaining aspects.
If the Steam Machine was marketed/touted/considered/intended as a console, then the comparison would be invalid but since it's a PC, well...

Now are you being obtuse?

I picked my examples because they come with RAM and SSD! Guess what, you could get a Minisforum AI X1 for about 700 quid without RAM and SSD. But what good is it? The one with 32 GB + 1 TB is about £1,200.

NRANMI got that. You made it clear. I was speaking in general.


For someone who acknowledges that your needs are a very small niche, you keep trying to defend the Steam Machine in general.

There is no "general". Every user has different needs. Everyone should buy accordingly.

NRANMLet's say 700-800 USD. It isn't a good price, but let's call it reasonable.
I'm comparing it against any other other device that is meant to perform similar functionality. I'm comparing to consoles because the way it's meant to be used very console-like. I'm comparing it to PCs (whether mini PCs or Desktop PCs, or laptops, since they are all PCs) because Valve and users here are telling me it's a PC.

You can't compare it to consoles in the case of someone who doesn't own a single console game. You cannot compare it to a laptop because it's not a laptop. You can compare it to a PC if size isn't a problem.

NRANMAgain, you can't just use "it's a PC" as a bullet point for the Steam Machine but then refuse to compare it to any other PC.

Are you implying that the Steam Machine cannot be criticized?
Because you cannot criticize it without comparing it to other devices.

Criticise it all you want. All I'm saying is, a product being an extreme niche doesn't make it a bad one.

NRANMYour car analogy is heavily flawed because the hatchback and pickup truck markets are separate. They don't compete with each other.

Exactly. The Steam Machine doesn't compete with bigger DIY builds. If all you care about is performance, and size isn't a problem, then build your own PC, obviously.

NRANMPerformance for the price, yes.
This is what is used as the primary metric across hardware reviews to determine if a product is generally good value.

That's a very narrow minded approach. In that sense, all laptops are massive failures because they offer far worse performance than equally priced desktops.

NRANMHow do you define value then?

Fitness for purpose for the price.

I'm sure my main rig (in my profile) offers better performance per price than the Steam Machine, but it would be no use building another one if I can't use it in my bedroom because of its size.

NRANMI cannot read your thoughts but I'm having an incredible difficulty believing that you (or virtually anyone else on this forum) would be OK with Epic (or any other large corporation) releasing a product with the same price, specifications, and purpose.

And yes, Epic would indeed most likely lock it down. That would mean that it would (or at least should) be marketed as a console, thus be compared much more with other consoles and not so much with PCs.

Why are you asking a question if you already decided that you're not gonna accept the answer?

This conversation is more about you trying to validate your preconceived notions than uncovering any truth or value, or trying to see things from another perspective. Pointless judgementalism.

NRANMReading comprehension?
What does this have to do with anything?
I'm aware that SteamOS is based on Arch Linux and that it uses KDE. That has nothing to do with the ability to be able to install and run other Linux distros or Windows.
In this particular case I'm referring to Windows. Will users be able to install Windows and drivers just like they can on any other PC?
Valve implies that would be possible. Users here claim that it would be exactly the case, and on a technical level it does appear perfectly plausible.
However, I haven't seen any proof of that.

You said it didn't work like a desktop computer. I gave you proof that it does. Simple as.

WastelandI'm not really interested in joining the rest of the debate at large, here, but I am curious about this one quote: in what way is a Steam Machine not an "actual" PC?

I did not bother looking it up.

A personal computer is defined for myself only as ATX motherboard with standard sized ATX power supply unit, a case and uefi. i define uefi as bios 2.0
a pc has not a locked uefi like lenovo has on laptops, not a laptop, not a small form factor pc etc.
Does it allow installation of multiple operating systems?
microsoft has for example no uefi on their windows notebook. that was really garbage uefi.

At the end of the day it depends on your definition of pc, or the generic definitoin of pc

If you define pc differently than you have to add also those embedded system platforms like the rasperry pi, with those arm cores, everything soldered on the motherboard.

_roman_I did not bother looking it up.

A personal computer is defined for myself only as ATX motherboard with standard sized ATX power supply unit, a case and uefi. i define uefi as bios 2.0
a pc has not a locked uefi like lenovo has on laptops, not a laptop, not a small form factor pc etc.
Does it allow installation of multiple operating systems?
microsoft has for example no uefi on their windows notebook. that was really garbage uefi.

At the end of the day it depends on your definition of pc, or the generic definitoin of pc

If you define pc differently than you have to add also those embedded system platforms like the rasperry pi, with those arm cores, everything soldered on the motherboard.

That is the craziest definition that I have ever come across. So my M-atx based computer is not a PC to you despite it running all of the same software that a full size ATX motherboard?