Thursday, August 6th 2020

US Aims to Bring Chip Manufacturing Industry Back to Its Soil

The US is one of the leading countries when it comes to chip design technologies and know-how; however, when it comes to actual manufacturing those designs, it's fallen from grace in recent years. Once the leader in both design and manufacturing, nowadays the US can only claim some 12% of the world's semiconductor production. The rest of it is mainly produced in Asia, where TSMC stands as the industry juggernaut, with other companies stretching across Taiwan, Japan, and most recently (and surging) China - the country has more than doubled its 300 mm manufacturing sites since 2017. This places some strain on the US' dependence from foreign shipments; and the country is looking to bridge that gap in its perceived national interests by investing heavily in silicon manufacturing to be brought back to the country. Recent slippages from Intel when it comes to keeping its manufacturing lead have apparently also instilled preoccupation amongst US policy makers.
The US Senate and House of Representatives have recently started converging around a bill that would pour taxpayer money into domestic chip production, laying a framework for $25bn worth of direct incentives to stimulate investment in manufacturing capacity, along with advanced research. This plan has been eagerly supported by Texas Republican John Cornyn and New York Democrat Chuck Schumer - representatives of two of the US states with the highest silicon manufacturing rates. However, it's expected that incentives covering some 20% to 30% of the total cost of any new fab and development investment are required to make the US a worthwhile consideration against other, more established countries with higher incentives, existing support logistics and infrastructure, and cheaper labor.
Source: Financial Times
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61 Comments on US Aims to Bring Chip Manufacturing Industry Back to Its Soil

#1
Renald
Bad news for Europe... Chinese taxes are not good, but US prices are crazy high when speaking of high-tech. Hopes for Biden to pass and lower those idiot taxes.
Salaries are too high compared to Europe. We are communists to you :D

Free hospital
Free medicine
"Free" education
Even in some big town free public transport

We all have to pay a share of our salary, but it's proven to be the fairest system for everyone (even the rich ones). Doesn't matter how sick you are, it's basically free. Some numbers
Western Europe :
minimum wage : 1000€
average wage : 2500€
median wage : 2300€

USA :
minimum wage : 1000$ ==>weird, but it depends on states, some have 12$/hour instead of 7.5$/h federal minimum
average wage : 4600$
median wage : 3500$
www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm

At 5k/month you are considered very rich in Europe, which is considered average in the USA
Posted on Reply
#2
Nater
Renald
Bad news for Europe... Chinese taxes are not good, but US prices are crazy high when speaking of high-tech. Hopes for Biden to pass and lower those idiot taxes.
Salaries are too high compared to Europe. We are communists to you :D

Free hospital
Free medicine
"Free" education
Even in some big town free public transport

We all have to pay a share of our salary, but it's proven to be the fairest system for everyone (even the rich ones). Doesn't matter how sick you are, it's basically free. Some numbers
Western Europe :
minimum wage : 1000€
average wage : 2500€
median wage : 2300€

USA :
minimum wage : 1000$ ==>weird, but it depends on states, some have 12$/hour instead of 7.5$/h federal minimum
average wage : 4600$
median wage : 3500$
www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm

At 5k/month you are considered very rich in Europe, which is considered average in the USA
Just wondering where I can send the MAGA hat and Trump flag? Europe could build their own chip fabs ya know.
Posted on Reply
#3
Zakin
Renald
Bad news for Europe... Chinese taxes are not good, but US prices are crazy high when speaking of high-tech. Hopes for Biden to pass and lower those idiot taxes.
Salaries are too high compared to Europe. We are communists to you :D

Free hospital
Free medicine
"Free" education
Even in some big town free public transport

We all have to pay a share of our salary, but it's proven to be the fairest system for everyone (even the rich ones). Doesn't matter how sick you are, it's basically free. Some numbers
Western Europe :
minimum wage : 1000€
average wage : 2500€
median wage : 2300€

USA :
minimum wage : 1000$ ==>weird, but it depends on states, some have 12$/hour instead of 7.5$/h federal minimum
average wage : 4600$
median wage : 3500$
www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm

At 5k/month you are considered very rich in Europe, which is considered average in the USA
Shit, the only people I know making 4000-5000 a month that I've met in my life either work 60-80 hours a week or own their business. Otherwise, pretty used to seeing people work forty hours a week and "happy" to take home 1200-1500 roughly. Otherwise I don't totally disagree with your points, but I will say that going for some federal statistics has never been accurate to what I've learned in my time in this country.
Posted on Reply
#5
Dave65
Nater
Just wondering where I can send the MAGA hat and Trump flag? Europe could build their own chip fabs ya know.
If Trump said it you can be sure it is false!
Posted on Reply
#6
ZeppMan217
Can't help but wonder if any of these fed sponsored initiatives stick around past 2020.
Posted on Reply
#7
RandallFlagg
The above for the USA is pretty misleading, as it shows wages only for the workforce. That ignores retirees, disabled, welfare cases, and so on. It appears you then go on to compare US workforce numbers to overall wages for Europe (including groups you excluded from the USA). When people retire, they make less money.

Europe :
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

Sort the chart at the bottom for avg wage for by year 2018 average high to low. Look at UK, above that line is mostly western europe. UK according to this has average monthly wage of 2,389 Euro = 2830 USD in 2018 - however I suspect this number because this also says their wages droppped from a high of 3755 Euro in 2015. I haven't heard of any economic catastrophe in UK that wiped out 1/3 of their GDP or income from 2015-2018.

Everything above UK on that chart sorted by 2018 income essentially comprises western europe. They range from 3373 for Sweden to 5645 for Norway ( Euro / month ). 3373 Euro right now = $3996/month in USD which is ~$48,000 USD / year. The high for Norway of 5645 Euro = $6,687 USD / month. Both of these are significantly above the average individual income in the USA. It is only in Eastern Europe that you get really depressed wages. The average individual income in the USA in the same year 2018 was $39642. The questionable number for UK would be roughly on par with the USA about $35K usd vs $39K usd).

USA:
dqydj.com/individual-income-by-year/


Bottom line is, as far as labor cost, the income in the USA is lower than that of a western european country but higher than most of SE Asia and Eastern Europe. There are exceptions to that but that is the simplest way to look at it without getting into minutia of individual countries.

These wage issues are also overblown, I view it as disinformation from greedy corporations. Wages are rarely a big percentage of manufacturing operations costs, they are just an easy to get rid of factor. I believe it is typically 5-10% of cost to make. For all manufacuturing together, it is only 18.5% - and that is for all wages for everything. You'll never have zero wages, and my guess is even if you had literal slave labor for zero you wouldn't even get rid of even half of that cost because you still need marketing, sales, design, legal, executives and so on. Maybe if they got rid of the executives....

The biggest problem a lot of manufacturers have is the corporate tax rate. The corporate tax rate in France is 34.1%, China at 16.6%, and Taiwan at 10.1%. The USA was at 35%, and is now at 21%. Then there is regulations, and the impact that has to costs. The loss of manufacturing to Asia is not a one-dimensional problem, regardless of what self-appointed political partisans may say.
Posted on Reply
#8
Renald
Nater
Just wondering where I can send the MAGA hat and Trump flag? Europe could build their own chip fabs ya know.
Since AMD and Intel aren't European based companies, no, we can't.
And as far as I know, there's already at least 1 fab I know of of in Ireland which is owned by Intel. You're thinking simple and you say "Trump" where it's out of context. I didn't mention anything about that.
The idea of closing borders and keeping USA out of the exterior is not new. At start of WWII, if you had paid attention to your history class, you would have known they spend half the first part of the war out of the conflict, just selling weapons....until they got attacked and responded. You know the rest.
USA was certainly not having employment problems but you weren't 400M. Now you do, and finding the equilibrium is not that easy.

And closing physical and economical borders in a globalized world don't have the same result as it had in the 30's.
Zakin
Shit, the only people I know making 4000-5000 a month that I've met in my life either work 60-80 hours a week or own their business. Otherwise, pretty used to seeing people work forty hours a week and "happy" to take home 1200-1500 roughly. Otherwise I don't totally disagree with your points, but I will say that going for some federal statistics has never been accurate to what I've learned in my time in this country.
In Europe you work 37-39h a week, but you're supposed to get paid extra for extra hours. Except either companies won't pay you saying it's "personal development" or they will kick you from the office so you won't be able to justify extra work.
You can't have multiple full time jobs.
You can't work more than 51hours a week (by law), so even if you wish to, you can't. Not legally.
You can't do anything, except having an a-hole job which basically tells you to sell overpriced things or scrap money out of the poorest pockets (rich can protect themselves).

I agree feds stats aren't representative, it's the gov. But the gap between rich people and "normal" people is huge in the US. See the salary of a doctor in the US. Meanwhile in Europe, it's mostly flat.

I worked 70-80h a week, working from 8am to 9pm straight every working day, and at least once or twice in a week we worked until midnight or worse. Extra hours paid ? Zero, nada, niet, nischt.
I did it during 6 years, and know I can earn a decent 2k/month, and I'm pretty good at my job. Now I just need to wait, pass certifications,get always better, and grab little by little each year. If I had not done that I would be stuck very low.
I also could be a shark and go from company to company, grabing 10% at least each 2years, but I think I still have a soul, so I'll keep it by upgrading 4-6% each year in the same company (I've stopped working 70h, now I work 40-45h avg).
RandallFlagg
The above for the USA is pretty misleading, as it shows wages only for the workforce. That ignores retirees, disabled, welfare cases, and so on. It appears you then go on to compare US workforce numbers to overall wages for Europe (including groups you excluded from the USA). When people retire, they make less money.

Europe :
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

Sort the chart at the bottom for avg wage for by year 2018 average high to low. Look at UK, above that line is mostly western europe. UK according to this has average monthly wage of 2,389 Euro = 2830 USD in 2018 - however I suspect this number because this also says their wages droppped from a high of 3755 Euro in 2015. I haven't heard of any economic catastrophe in UK that wiped out 1/3 of their GDP or income from 2015-2018.

Everything above UK on that chart sorted by 2018 income essentially comprises western europe. They range from 3373 for Sweden to 5645 for Norway ( Euro / month ). 3373 Euro right now = $3996/month in USD which is ~$48,000 USD / year. The high for Norway of 5645 Euro = $6,687 USD / month. Both of these are significantly above the average individual income in the USA. It is only in Eastern Europe that you get really depressed wages. The average individual income in the USA in the same year 2018 was $39642. The questionable number for UK would be roughly on par with the USA about $35K usd vs $39K usd).

USA:
dqydj.com/individual-income-by-year/


Bottom line is, as far as labor cost, the income in the USA is lower than that of a western european country but higher than most of SE Asia and Eastern Europe. There are exceptions to that but that is the simplest way to look at it without getting into minutia of individual countries.

These wage issues are also overblown, I view it as disinformation from greedy corporations. Wages are rarely a big percentage of manufacturing operations costs, they are just an easy to get rid of factor. I believe it is typically 5-10% of cost to make. For all manufacuturing together, it is only 18.5% - and that is for all wages for everything. You'll never have zero wages, and my guess is even if you had literal slave labor for zero you wouldn't even get rid of even half of that cost because you still need marketing, sales, design, legal, executives and so on. Maybe if they got rid of the executives....

The biggest problem a lot of manufacturers have is the corporate tax rate. The corporate tax rate in France is 34.1%, China at 16.6%, and Taiwan at 10.1%. The USA was at 35%, and is now at 21%. Then there is regulations, and the impact that has to costs. The loss of manufacturing to Asia is not a one-dimensional problem, regardless of what self-appointed political partisans may say.
I read the whole thing, and indeed, it could look like we live well, but you have to consider some factors :
- we have VAT at 20-22% across many european countries
- while a 40m² in France costs 500€ to rent in big cities, it's nearly 800-900€ in Ireland, and worse in UK
- all continent opposes us taxes (US, China, etc.)
- we can't get things across Europe without internal taxes, not everywhere. It's not a federal state.
- in France, as you quoted it, tax over income for income for companies is 33% (last I checked), but you forgot a big point : for every euro they pay you, they have to give at least the same amount in social taxes to the country. The money goes to : healthcare, retired people, natural catastrophes, and a bunch of complicated things.
- when you retire you only touch 70-80% of your salary if worked enough (43 years in average) : if you do less, you lose like 5% for each semester not done !! Many people have another retiring system that they pay to compensate the loss of salary, and it's around 300€ a month. Like private retirement funds in the US, but smaller.

And last but not least : if you pay your CPU 500$ it's transformed into 500€ (mostly VAT effect). Magic !!
Posted on Reply
#9
PowerPC
Arguing between USA and Europe and what is better is such wasted time. Look at the countries and what they are doing. Europe has a lot of poverty just like the USA. And Europe isn't even a country!
Posted on Reply
#10
R-T-B
PowerPC
Europe has a lot of poverty just like the USA.
No, it's really not even comparable.
PowerPC
And Europe isn't even a country!
We generally talk about the EU when in dialog like this, which operates much like a common country.
Posted on Reply
#11
moproblems99
ZeppMan217
Can't help but wonder if any of these fed sponsored initiatives stick around past 2020.
Nope, we'll sell ourselves out again.
Renald
if you had paid attention to your history class, you would have known they spend half the first part of the war out of the conflict, just selling weapons....until they got attacked and responded. You know the rest.
And it was brilliant until Japan screwed it up.
Renald
I also could be a shark and go from company to company, grabing 10% at least each 2years, but I think I still have a soul, so I'll keep it by upgrading 4-6% each year in the same company
Just remember, that company will drop you so fast without remorse, I used to think like that. Loyalty, then I watched people get let go to hire cheaper labor. Then I started jumping ship when I got better offers and never looked back. More than doubled my salary in 4 years.
Posted on Reply
#12
rtwjunkie
PC Gaming Enthusiast
Zakin
Shit, the only people I know making 4000-5000 a month that I've met in my life either work 60-80 hours a week or own their business. Otherwise, pretty used to seeing people work forty hours a week and "happy" to take home 1200-1500 roughly. Otherwise I don't totally disagree with your points, but I will say that going for some federal statistics has never been accurate to what I've learned in my time in this country.
I’ve got to agree. I just retired a little early, but had to work 55 to 65 hours a week for 22 years to do it. To reach those numbers requires working like a dog for many, and now after Covid the jobs will be fewer.
Renald
At start of WWII, if you had paid attention to your history class, you would have known they spend half the first part of the war out of the conflict, just selling weapons....until they got attacked and responded. You know the rest.
Dang how arrogant do you have to be to assume that all Americans Don’t know history? :shadedshu:
Posted on Reply
#13
moproblems99
rtwjunkie
I’ve got to agree. I just retired a little early, but had to work 55 to 65 hours a week for 22 years to do it. To reach those numbers requires working like a dog for many, and now after Covid the jobs will be fewer.
Lucky, I am not planning on being able to retire but rather having it pilfered away slowly by the government. Which is precisely why I am jumping and jumping to maximize my salary as fast as I can.

And congrats on retiring!
Posted on Reply
#14
PowerPC
R-T-B
No, it's really not even comparable.

We generally talk about the EU when in dialog like this, which operates much like a common country.
Are you actually going to argue this? Have you been to Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Bulgaria, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Czechia, Slovenia, Slovakia, Cyprus or Hungary?? I have been to most of these countries and I would even count France to this list. Basically half of the EU are poorer countries that you can't even compare to the US. Not even comparable, but in a totally reversed way than you mean it here. You shouldn't ever think that the EU as a whole is doing better than the US. And I'm from EU and know the problems of US pretty well. US doesn't know the problems of EU nearly as well, it seems.

"Not even comparable"??? Do you know how much suffering is going on in the EU every single day, especially with all the refugees that are living in basically death camps without any future other than more death camps? And that's not even talking about regular people in those EU countries who live on nothing and are totally left alone to die by their governments. Please..... You don't know anything about the EU.

And all richer countries in the EU wouldn't have nearly as much s**t if they didn't exploit their poorer neighbors and the refugees for slave wages. This is why seeing EU as one country is just not very smart, or at least look at EU as a whole without leaving out the poor countries. Not to do so is just as stupid as only showing the rich cities in US and ignoring all the poorer cities and areas.

It's really bizzare to me how people from US often think about EU.

I'll repeat what I said earlier:

"Arguing between USA and Europe and what is better is such wasted time. Look at the countries and what they are doing. Europe has a lot of poverty just like the USA. And Europe isn't even a country!"
Posted on Reply
#15
moproblems99
PowerPC
Are you actually going to argue this? Have you been to Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Bulgaria, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Czechia, Slovenia, Slovakia, Cyprus or Hungary?? I have been to most of these countries and I would even count France to this list. Basically half of the EU are poorer countries that you can't even compare to the US. Not even comparable, but in a totally reversed way than you mean it here. You shouldn't ever think that the EU as a whole is doing better than the US. And I'm from EU and know the problems of US pretty well. US doesn't know the problems of EU nearly as well, it seems.

"Not even comparable"??? Do you know how much suffering is going on in the EU every single day, especially with all the refugees that are living in basically death camps without any future other than more death camps? And that's not even talking about regular people in those EU countries who live on nothing and are totally left alone to die by their governments. Please..... You don't know anything about the EU.

And all richer countries in the EU wouldn't have nearly as much s**t if they didn't exploit their poorer neighbors and the refugees for slave wages. This is why seeing EU as one country is just not very smart, or at least look at EU as a whole without leaving out the poor countries. Not to do so is just as stupid as only showing the rich cities in US and ignoring all the poorer cities and areas.

It's really bizzare to me how people from US often think about EU.

I'll repeat my earlier statement:

"Arguing between USA and Europe and what is better is such wasted time. Look at the countries and what they are doing. Europe has a lot of poverty just like the USA. And Europe isn't even a country!"
I think he meant the income gap. There is a very,very,very,very,very,very,very large gap between the haves and have-nots.
Posted on Reply
#16
Static~Charge
I have a bigger issue with this plan:
Raevenlord
The US Senate and House of Representatives have recently started converging around a bill that would pour taxpayer money into domestic chip production, laying a framework for $25bn worth of direct incentives to stimulate investment in manufacturing capacity, along with advanced research.
Why in the hell should my taxes be used to support big corporations who make a crap-ton of money and do their utmost best to avoid paying taxes?! They can afford to build their own fabs, but they're too damned cheap to put a crowbar in their corporate wallets and pay for it. Instead, they go crying to their favorite bribed politicians with their hands out.
Posted on Reply
#17
PowerPC
moproblems99
I think he meant the income gap. There is a very,very,very,very,very,very,very large gap between the haves and have-nots.
I know what he means. And do you actually think there isn't a very,very,very,very,very,very,very large gap between the haves and have-nots in EU as a whole...?

It's actually bizzare to read some of the comments on US vs. EU here. It seems like people from US only ever notice their own problems. I know EU as a whole is way worse in this gap than US. Way worse... I just told you exactly how with examples and you still wrote your comment after that. Again, you don't know anything about EU. Go watch at least a single documentary on EU problems, please. I know it's harder to get real news from here to US, but still. People from US should know more. Just look at the working conditions of basic plant farmers in Spain.
Posted on Reply
#18
R-T-B
PowerPC
Are you actually going to argue this?
As a statistical average? Yes.
PowerPC
I know EU as a whole is way worse in this gap than US.
Good, now you have some work to do correcting the world's almanacs.
Posted on Reply
#19
Diverge
Static~Charge
I have a bigger issue with this plan:

Why in the hell should my taxes be used to support big corporations who make a crap-ton of money and do their utmost best to avoid paying taxes?! They can afford to build their own fabs, but they're too damned cheap to put a crowbar in their corporate wallets and pay for it. Instead, they go crying to their favorite bribed politicians with their hands out.
If you worked in the technology field in the US for 30+ years you should know the answer to this. Not sure about you, but I'd rather my taxes go to corporations that create jobs rather than those that could work, but chose not too, or illegals, or the corrupt politicians. It doesn't mean I like how greedy corporations are - the CEO's, VIPs, and Board of Elections are the people who benefited from selling our manufacturing overseas. It's just the only option with a positive for those that work and earn their way.

Not directed at you, but just in the context of the whole thread:

Christine King, former CEO of SMSC (purchased by Microchip) said why should she pay a US engineer a $100,000+ salary, when she can buy up a small company in Bulgaria and get 4 engineers for the same price... She said this at an all hands meeting... This was after waves of layoffs, and after purchasing a company in Bulgaria...
Posted on Reply
#20
rtwjunkie
PC Gaming Enthusiast
PowerPC
Basically half of the EU are poorer countries that you can't even compare to the US.
You need to visit Appalachia, specifically parts of West Virginia, Kentucky and North Carolina. It would blow your mind.

So to take your statement a bit further, it is not smart to think of the whole U.S. the same either.
Static~Charge
I have a bigger issue with this plan:

Why in the hell should my taxes be used to support big corporations who make a crap-ton of money and do their utmost best to avoid paying taxes?! They can afford to build their own fabs, but they're too damned cheap to put a crowbar in their corporate wallets and pay for it. Instead, they go crying to their favorite bribed politicians with their hands out.
I understand and appreciate your sentiment, which is what the like is for. On a logical note though, the U.S. is going to need some of those manufacturing jobs to return. IDK if you noticed, but most would agree our service sector sustained economy will not be coming back to what it was.

We’ll probably be back to 1980’s levels of stores and restaurants. Unless we want to have a permanent 15 to 20% unemployment rate, we should “bribe” as many corporations as possible to return at least some of their manufacturing here.
Posted on Reply
#21
claes
PowerPC
I know what he means. And do you actually think there isn't a very,very,very,very,very,very,very large gap between the haves and have-nots in EU as a whole...?

It's actually bizzare to read some of the comments on US vs. EU here. It seems like people from US only ever notice their own problems. I know EU as a whole is way worse in this gap than US. Way worse... I just told you exactly how with examples and you still wrote your comment after that. Again, you don't know anything about EU. Go watch at least a single documentary on EU problems, please. I know it's harder to get real news from here to US, but still. People from US should know more. Just look at the working conditions of basic plant farmers in Spain.
European countries are certainly poorer than America, and you’re certainly correct about pointing out problems in the EU (I could rag on America, too — I think America would win due to mass incarceration and our closed cages, government condoned immigrant prisons and destruction of open air camps and our... nonchalant attitude towards things like healthcare, pandemics, and poor people :(), but you’re wrong about the income gap: www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/04/02/598864666/the-country-with-the-worlds-worst-inequality-is

Sure, the US is good at sending people to college, but the average graduate enters the workforce with $30000 in student debt, $3-400 health insurance premiums a month, $800-$2000 for a one bedroom in most cities... We have farms, too, but they’re mostly owned by corporations and worked by migrants, whose average annual wage is typically around $12000.
Posted on Reply
#22
PowerPC
R-T-B
As a statistical average? Yes.
claes
European countries are certainly poorer than America, and you’re certainly correct about pointing out problems in the EU (I could rag on America, too — I think America would win due to mass incarceration and our closed cages, government condoned immigrant prisons and destruction of open air camps and our... nonchalant attitude towards things like healthcare, pandemics, and poor people :(), but you’re wrong about the income gap: www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/04/02/598864666/the-country-with-the-worlds-worst-inequality-is

Sure, the US is good at sending people to college, but the average graduate enters the workforce with $30000 in student debt, $3-400 health insurance premiums a month, $800-$2000 for a one bedroom in most cities... We have farms, too, but they’re mostly owned by corporations and worked by migrants, whose average annual wage is typically around $12000.
Does that statistic also include the refugee crisis? Does it include the poorest of the pore immigrants? Do you know how they love to lie about statistics here? Whoever is looking for a job less than 10 years isn't even taken into the statistics for unemployment. They play so many tricks with statistics and you just believe it?

The link is just about individual countries, not taking EU as a whole into account.
rtwjunkie
You need to visit Appalachia, specifically parts of West Virginia, Kentucky and North Carolina. It would blow your mind.

So to take your statement a bit further, it is not smart to think of the whole U.S. the same either.
Please visit Almeria slums in the south of Spain for me then. Many of these people live and work out of houses made from thrown away matrasses. There are whole cities like that. For years. And there is no change for them. And nobody is doing anything because they are basically just slaves to the plant farmers who make almost no money themselves because rich countries want very cheap produce... Appalachia looks like a paradise compared to that. Europe is sustained by hellholes like that, where people are almost kept as slaves. I have never seen anything comparable to that in the US. Where is the outrage? It's easier to only look at yourself and your problems. But EU is hell to many people, but you just like to sweep that under the rug somehow. You just like to talk about only your problems in the US. Maybe also understandable if I lived in US, but very misleading.

Again, US should know more about problems in EU. You would definitely feel better about your own problems. But it seems like US only likes to complain about their problems... I'm actually laughing here in EU sometimes when I compare it to our problems.

This might give you only a microscopic glimpse into the problem: [MEDIA=twitter]1099018033136312321[/MEDIA]
Posted on Reply
#23
rtwjunkie
PC Gaming Enthusiast
PowerPC
There are whole cities like that. For years. And there is no change for them. And nobody is doing anything because they are basically just slaves to the plant farmers who make almost no money themselves because rich countries want very cheap produce... Appalachia looks like a paradise compared to that
You’re right, they would understand nothing about any of that trend in Appalachia where whole towns were nothing but the place dirt poor people lived and had only one business in town, the coal mines, that used them up like toilet paper and still didn’t get them to poverty level. Now with coal on the downturn, they’ve been abandoned. Too poor to do anything but exist, and too poor to go elsewhere to try and find jobs which they would be ill-prepared for anyway if they could even afford to take their family to sonewhere else.

So yeah, as long as things like that exist, as long as people in my own town can only feed their family by going to the food bank here (which depends on donated food to operate), then yeah, my focus is not going to be on Almeria. It’s no different than your focus not being on anyone here.
Posted on Reply
#24
PowerPC
rtwjunkie
You’re right, they would understand nothing about any of that trend in Appalachia where whole towns were nothing but the place dirt poor people lived and had only one business in town, the coal mines, that used them up like toilet paper and still didn’t get them to poverty level. Now with coal on the downturn, they’ve been abandoned. Too poor to do anything but exist, and too poor to go elsewhere to try and find jobs which they would be ill-prepared for anyway if they could even afford to take their family to sonewhere else.

So yeah, as long as things like that exist, as long as people in my own town can only feed their family by going to the food bank here (which depends on donated food to operate), then yeah, my focus is not going to be on Almeria. It’s no different than your focus not being on anyone here.
I wasn't the one saying EU is somehow better than US.... You and others said it. I actually believe and have stated many times (with several people trying to contradict me in this thread) that EU has the same problems with wage gap, if not far far worse. What is worse than outright slavery? I didn't actually say it was worse, because I know US has big problems, but it's in no shape or form better here when I comes to that. No f'ing way you're going to tell me that.

I know how life is hard in the US, I know your laws. But better compare yourself with yourself, not with EU. We don't have the answers to your problems because EU doesn't know them, sorry. EU will keep exploiting people like slaves and people in US will have their problems, too. But elevating your problems and saying our problems don't compare is just absolutely like putting a blindfold on yourself. These are all the problems caused by corrupt politics, but there is also almost no solution for them here or there. But saying you can't compare the problems? EU must be better? It's wrong.
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#25
yotano211
rtwjunkie
Dang how arrogant do you have to be to assume that all Americans Don’t know history? :shadedshu:
You will be very surprised in how many people in the US dont even know their own state history. I wasnt even born in the US and I know more US history than most people I know or talked too over 35 years in the US.
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