brian.caI think it was you that made this comment on another thread and I questioned it then but didn't get a reply.. Could you explain how that single water block idea would work out?

I've never played with water coolling but if there are two chips, one above & one below, wouldn't the materials still mostly be the same minus the extra connection? But more importantly how would that be designed to achieve good contact on both chips while still being practical. I can't imagine that being something you just slide in, wouldn't it either be too tight (requiring you to force it) going in or too loose once it's in if you didn't have to force it?

The only way I could see that working is if the 2nd pcb is removable so you could reattach it over the water block after you've put it on against the first chip (but even then what's the real benefit there? Would the single double sided water block be significantly cheaper than two normal ones?

But that brings me back to one of the major concerns (and I think this is what the guy you quoated was getting at) that I think you overlook... the practicality of actually working with this card. That an normal aftermarket cooler wouldn't work on this card would be a given obviously. But should a company design one for the dual chips (essentially similiar to their normal models but extended I would guess?), wouldn't it be a lot easier to replace the cooling on the ATI card since it should take the usual procedure? With the Nv card it seems like you'd have to take the whole thing apart and put it back together or else work in some extremely limited space.

Don't you think companies will create a cooler for it easily. Making one by hand fits into your assumption. But the ones that will be made and manufactured by Danger Den(liquid cooling), or others, of course wouldn't be hard. First, you would check your fittings, apply your thermal compound. Then, you would put it in, match up the holes, and tighten the screws with a screwdriver.

We are talking about cutting edge GPU's and you're wondering if a company can make a piece of metal hollow with flat sides? :wtf:

It could be engineered to even use the reference design fastener if they wanted to. :laugh:

DaedalusHeliosDon't you think companies will create a cooler for it easily. Making one by hand fits into your assumption, but one made and manufactured by Danger Den(liquid cooling), or others of course wouldn't be hard.

We are talking about cutting edge GPU's and you're wondering if a company can make a piece of metal hollow with flat sides? :wtf:

It could be engineered to even use the reference design fastener if they wanted to. :laugh:

It doesn't even have to be a single piece of metal. It can be a piece of metal on each gpu, connected by acetal or something similar.

But how will they OC and how will they scale in SLI, Tri-SLI and with the latest drivers when they come out?

I know, we all wish we knew. :(

a111087

That doesn't mean anything. That's pre-release drivers. No 9800GX2 benches have meaning until it gets a completed driver.

Wile EThat doesn't mean anything. That's pre-release drivers. No 9800GX2 benches have meaning until it gets a completed driver.

yes, but i don't remember if it was you or someone else saying that it still gives a pretty good estimate

a111087yes, but i don't remember if it was you or someone else saying that it still gives a pretty good estimate

Wasn't me. But, at any rate, I suspect things will be a lot different with proper drivers. I score over 16k with my single 8800GT and a Quad at 3870.

mdm-adphYeah, "single card" -- that's cute. By the way, I've got a "single RAM chip" in my computer -- it just so happens to take up four slots, don't worry about that.

hmm, well your logic is flawed it takes two PCIe slots, the x2 takes 2 PCIe slots, whats the problem?

candle_86hmm, well your logic is flawed it takes two PCIe slots, the x2 takes 2 PCIe slots, whats the problem?

They only plug into one slot, however. Electrically, they are a single slot card.

DaedalusHelios, if I didn't catch your tone I'll apologize for that. But it was still a silly thing to say (or maybe just a bad joke). re: the pcb thing as I remember it they made the GTs in a way that the margins on it were too small and the cost cutting was a reactionary measure not proactive and it didn't make the partners very happy. I wouldn't credit their success on cost effectiveness so much as good marketing & positioning combined with steady performance.

On ATIs side it's harder to comment.. I'd be interested to see how they're actually doing (ie: apart from AMD as a whole). It does sound like after the intial merger mess they're doing a lot better. They margins on the 3000 series cards were supposedly pretty good (and they seem to have room to play with the prices still looking at the recent price cuts) and they seem to be poised to get ahead of Nv this spring/summer.

Regarding AMDs situation I'm not completely sure what you're arguing... I did not say AMD is not in a bad situation but that your comment "No one in the right mind would buy AMD stock right now" may not be the most accurate assement. Yes AMD is currently in the shitter but that's part of the appeal of buying into them atm. Like I said, if you bought them at their worst 2 months ago when people were crapping on them the most you would currently be up 30% on your investment today. And given AMD/ATI's potential, what they are to a few companies, and how low they currently are it just seems to me like it's most likely to go up for them (and like the saying goes, you're supposed to buy low). If nothing else I have a hard time believing someone won't buy them out before they go bankrupt, which (again I'm not a big finance guy) I would imagine would drive the price up since there's not much room to currently fall before it gets to that point and there are probably a few companies that would have a stake in acquiring them.

With the side deals thing I don't think you can say they obviously won't help b/c they're currently still in debt when the pay off is still be a ways away. The EUV thing for example is expect to not be needed for at least another 3 years I think it was (yes that seems like a long time but Intels already been waiting at least 1 year - as in that's how long it takes to disassemble, ship, & reassemble the stuff they're waiting for - just to get a tool from Nokia I think it was so they could do some R&D on the tech AMD+IBM are playing around with).

And I read the same article from Tom's a while ago. I also read one from them a month or so ago as well that the new one contracdicts on a lcouple of points. When they write a new one that offers further speculation I'll probably read that as well. I'll probably take that with a grain of salt though rather than convincing myself that reading an article on Tom's equates to working knowledge of business and finance. :)

Don't you think companies will create a cooler for it easily. Making one by hand fits into your assumption. But the ones that will be made and manufactured by Danger Den(liquid cooling), or others, of course wouldn't be hard. First, you would check your fittings, apply your thermal compound. Then, you would put it in, match up the holes, and tighten the screws with a screwdriver.

We are talking about cutting edge GPU's and you're wondering if a company can make a piece of metal hollow with flat sides? :wtf:

It could be engineered to even use the reference design fastener if they wanted to. :laugh:

1) I'm not trying to argue.. someone said something, I'm not completely familiar with water cooling but I understand the principals so I was curious how it would actually work b/c it sounded like what he was saying had a flaw in the idea. If you don't have anything worthwhile to add feel free to save some gas.

2) I'm sure if a company really wanted to they could figure something out ... whether they would actually do so would depend on the success of the card and the likelyhood of selling their cooling solution (talking particularly of aftermarking - I'd imagine Nv partners will design their own cooling on their versions of the card). No matter how smart the design of an aftermarket cooler may be, it's worthless if the end user won't be able to install it.

But here's what I'm asking as it relates to what you said.. using your assumptions it sounds like you think the case will be removable and that there should be enough space between the 2 cards to just slide the block in. The block if it's like Newtekie was saying would have to be connected to/between both chips (for anyone else - keep in mind this was all originally directed to him so that's why I'm referring to this design) so both sides would have to be connected to both boards to secure a tight fit after it's in no?

Now try this, take 2 pencils.. lay one against your palm across the top of your thumb and pinky. Take the other one and cross across the first between your index and middile finger and hold the two tight in a fist so they stay together. Imagine the one across your pinky and thumb is the top card and the vertical pencil is the water block that is already tight/secured against the top chip/pcb. When you tighten the block to the bottom core it should pull the block down towards it.. if you pull on the bottom of the vertical pencil maybe you'll get what I was getting at.

When you screw a block or fan down to 1 PCB the block moves not the PCB. But if you do it to 2 it's different. If there's any space between them and you go to tighten the blocks down to both, one or both of the cards will have to bend to make up the difference (the space that allowed easy installation) which I'd imagine would normally be considered a bad thing. If you remove the space from the equation before that point you have to deal with the possability of a bad fit/forcing it in, thermal paste scrapping off (more annoying than anything) etc. The only way I can think of that design Newtekie was suggesting working would be is if it's designed for no space and it's possible to disassemble the 2 cards so you can put the block in first and then the top card. But I have a hard time buying that that would be possible.

Aftermarket cooling for this just seems like it would be impractical.. especially if it's success and Nvidia's commitment to the design ends up being questionable.

brian.caI think it was you that made this comment on another thread and I questioned it then but didn't get a reply.. Could you explain how that single water block idea would work out?

I've never played with water coolling but if there are two chips, one above & one below, wouldn't the materials still mostly be the same minus the extra connection? But more importantly how would that be designed to achieve good contact on both chips while still being practical. I can't imagine that being something you just slide in, wouldn't it either be too tight (requiring you to force it) going in or too loose once it's in if you didn't have to force it?

The only way I could see that working is if the 2nd pcb is removable so you could reattach it over the water block after you've put it on against the first chip (but even then what's the real benefit there? Would the single double sided water block be significantly cheaper than two normal ones?

But that brings me back to one of the major concerns (and I think this is what the guy you quoated was getting at) that I think you overlook... the practicality of actually working with this card. That an normal aftermarket cooler wouldn't work on this card would be a given obviously. But should a company design one for the dual chips (essentially similiar to their normal models but extended I would guess?), wouldn't it be a lot easier to replace the cooling on the ATI card since it should take the usual procedure? With the Nv card it seems like you'd have to take the whole thing apart and put it back together or else work in some extremely limited space.


As for #4 on your list I'm pretty sure there was a post last week that had the roadmap for the 9 series that listed the x2 as < $599 so we can guess it'll at least be between $500 & $600 bucks with a fair amount of certainty.

Just like the 7950GX2, the card will need to be taken apart to put a water block in. It is entirely practical to do, and most people capable of installing watercooling should have no problem doing it. You don't need to slide the cooler in, do you really think that is how nVidia did it to put the air cooler in? Installing a cooler on the 3870x2 is definitely easier, and you are right you would have to take the whole card apart. However, you won't have to install two seperate block. You just install a double sided block that is the same dimentions as the current air cooler that contacts both cores. You install the block on the first PCB like you normally install a block, then just set the second PCB on top of the block and install that.

As for #4, I remember that post with the roadmap. However, if you notice, there are little stars by some of the information, including the price for the 9800GX2. And at the bottom is says "* Not confirmed, and should be considered with a pinch of salt". In other words, they are just speculating what the price will be. It will be priced based on performance, if it performs like a $600 card, why shouldn't nVidia sell it at that price point? Just because ATi can't get their cards to perform at that high of price points, doesn't mean nVidia should lower the price of their cards.

Nick89I agree with most of what you are saying, tk :) but I dont think it will be to fragile.

Also @ newtekie theres no way a single water block could be used safely, when you install the water block it would have to scrape against both cores, not mentioning how to cool the memory..

My estimate is that this will get about the same performance as two 9800GTX's as it looks like it has the same cores as the 9800GTX sofar. :ohwell:

I think it will cost between 600$-800$ as I dont see nvidia releasing one 9800GTX for less than 400$

So you agree that the card is clocked lower than the 8800GT? You agree that it will perform worse than 2 much weaker cards in SLI?

Yes, there is a way a single waterblock can be used. The two PCBs come apart, just like the 7950GX2. You don't have to slide the thing in there. Like I said before, do you really think that is how nVidia got their cooler in there?

The roadmap posted earlier suggests that the speculation is the 9800GTX will be below $400. And that seems about right considering it is just a slightly beefed up 8800GTS512.

Nick89Look at how you attack his credibility first then discuss the aspects of the card.
If a card looks junky, people are going to say so regardless of the brand; that doesn't make tkpenalty a fanboy, but your eagerness to defend nVidia sure does cast you in a bad light.

Actually, I replied to the posts in the order they were posted in. If the original posts I replied to were reversed I would have answered them in reverse order.

The card doesn't look junky, he is just needlessly bashing it because it is an nVidia card. He has done it in the past, and he is doing it now. And just like in the past, he is bashing the card using blatently false information.

Elegant, solid, masculine, representing strength and power, just like me :D! Me like it! ;)

im actually hoping that this card will in fact be a beast! partly due to the fact that ATI will be ready to step up to try to one them up and vice versa, the never ending war continues. plus all of you saying that it looks ugly, WTF, it actually looks wicked. pardon me for not liking uber flashy looking video cards but i find that less is more! Also, this definantly looks way better than nVidias last frankestein they realeased a while back, at least its streamlined!

brian.caRegarding AMDs situation I'm not completely sure what you're arguing... I did not say AMD is not in a bad situation but that your comment "No one in the right mind would buy AMD stock right now" may not be the most accurate assement. Yes AMD is currently in the shitter but that's part of the appeal of buying into them atm. Like I said, if you bought them at their worst 2 months ago when people were crapping on them the most you would currently be up 30% on your investment today. And given AMD/ATI's potential, what they are to a few companies, and how low they currently are it just seems to me like it's most likely to go up for them (and like the saying goes, you're supposed to buy low). If nothing else I have a hard time believing someone won't buy them out before they go bankrupt, which (again I'm not a big finance guy) I would imagine would drive the price up since there's not much room to currently fall before it gets to that point and there are probably a few companies that would have a stake in acquiring them.

The buy low, and sell high rule of the stock market, does not include super high risk investments that sell low for very long periods. Also, they will bankrupt soon enough if someone doesn't buy them in time, or they some how pull out of it. They have been trading at under $4 billion for way too long.

Considering IBM has been decreasing there use of AMD products lately and opting for Intel parts instead on workstations and laptop segments; I would say don't count on IBM helping them much. Unless you are talking about R&D only, and then I would say yes. Remember the evil "chipzilla" that is Intel, has much more money to throw at R&D, than IBM would throw at a company like AMD.


But there is one thing on your side of the debate that I am surprised you haven't mentioned. In the past year, AMD has received tax breaks, incentives, and corporate welfare from the German government to help keep them afloat. If the German government wanted to badly enough, they could pay off all of AMD's debt and wait for them to pick up speed again before getting the money back as part of an agreement with them.

But it probably won't happen, but thats just speculation on my part that it wouldn't though. I am not sure how their politicians feel towards AMD because I don't follow them politically. :)

I don't know what is going on with AMD, but I honestly hope they don't go under. Competition pushes prices down, but more importantly it pushed technology forward. If AMD goes under the Processor and Video Card markets will both suffer from increased prices and lack of inovation.

newtekie1I don't know what is going on with AMD, but I honestly hope they don't go under. Competition pushes prices down, but more importantly it pushed technology forward. In AMD goes under the Processor and Video Card markets will both suffer from increased prices and lack of inovation.

I totally agree with you. But from the looks of things, this is AMD's darkest hour. :ohwell:

Newtekiem thanks for the answer. I never really followed tech stuff too much back when the 7950GX2 was released so I only had a rough idea about it. Like I said to put it together like a sandwhich is bar none the most sensible way to actually do it so no I didn't think that's how Nv would be doing it. I would assume Nv / partners would have no problem implementing their own cooling solutions b/c it should be easy to do at the time of production... it's like electrical or plumping work in a house... if you do it at the time of construction it's a laughable job. If you try to run a new line through the house when all the insulation and drywall is up though it's a completely different story.

I was under the impression that seperating that second card to give you the room you would need to work would be more towards the side of impractical. I suppose that would mostly be based on what actually connects the two together though. ie: if it was a small bridge that disconnects easy that should be no problem assuming that the second cards connection to the back plate is also designed to come apart. . If it's a solid connection though I could see that being a pain in the ass (I was assuming it'd be the later). Did they design the 7950GX2 to be easily disassembled?


DaedalusHelios, where I disagree is the high risk assesment. I think a good chunk of their problems can be attributed to ATI acquisition and as they go along they should be able to put that behind them if they can manage to press through. Both AMD and ATI have the potential to perform well.

What you mentioned with the german gov relates to what I was saying about AMD is to different companies and how that mitigates the risk with AMD. Germany wants to see AMD do well b/c of their Dresdan plant so they're bound to treat them well. AMD I think was also supposed to be opening a plant in NY as well no? And low and behold NY state files that anti trust suit vs. Intel, so they'll probably have the state of NY on their side as well.

With IBM what I'm wondering about is the extent of their relationship. I keep hearing about the duo having quite the relationship and having a bunch of joint R&D projects together. For IBM to work with AMD they must have something to offer, be it intellecutal property or some form of physical asset. If AMD was to go under would IBM not stand to lose if another company buys that IP or if they need to find those assests elsewhere? Ex: with the EUV tech thing, part of that test chip was manufactured in Dresden... is that something that is easily & immediately replicable elsewhere? If not it should be in IBMs best interest to protect AMD when their stability can have an adverse effect on IBMs business. Not for AMDs sake but their own.

brian.caNewtekiem thanks for the answer. I never really followed tech stuff too much back when the 7950GX2 was released so I only had a rough idea about it. Like I said to put it together like a sandwhich is bar none the most sensible way to actually do it so no I didn't think that's how Nv would be doing it. I would assume Nv / partners would have no problem implementing their own cooling solutions b/c it should be easy to do at the time of production... it's like electrical or plumping work in a house... if you do it at the time of construction it's a laughable job. If you try to run a new line through the house when all the insulation and drywall is up though it's a completely different story.

I was under the impression that seperating that second card to give you the room you would need to work would be more towards the side of impractical. I suppose that would mostly be based on what actually connects the two together though. ie: if it was a small bridge that disconnects easy that should be no problem assuming that the second cards connection to the back plate is also designed to come apart. . If it's a solid connection though I could see that being a pain in the ass (I was assuming it'd be the later). Did they design the 7950GX2 to be easily disassembled?


DaedalusHelios, where I disagree is the high risk assesment. I think a good chunk of their problems can be attributed to ATI acquisition and as they go along they should be able to put that behind them if they can manage to press through. Both AMD and ATI have the potential to perform well.

What you mentioned with the german gov relates to what I was saying about AMD is to different companies and how that mitigates the risk with AMD. Germany wants to see AMD do well b/c of their Dresdan plant so they're bound to treat them well. AMD I think was also supposed to be opening a plant in NY as well no? And low and behold NY state files that anti trust suit vs. Intel, so they'll probably have the state of NY on their side as well.

With IBM what I'm wondering about is the extent of their relationship. I keep hearing about the duo having quite the relationship and having a bunch of joint R&D projects together. For IBM to work with AMD they must have something to offer, be it intellecutal property or some form of physical asset. If AMD was to go under would IBM not stand to lose if another company buys that IP or if they need to find those assests elsewhere? Ex: with the EUV tech thing, part of that test chip was manufactured in Dresden... is that something that is easily & immediately replicable elsewhere? If not it should be in IBMs best interest to protect AMD when their stability can have an adverse effect on IBMs business. Not for AMDs sake but their own.

I used to own a 7950GX2 and the performance was alright but I never had it crash once throughout the months I was using it. Atleast it was reliable. I never benched it though.

The best scenario would be IBM buying AMD. That kind of money is nothing to IBM.

Sadly, IBM's history of success has partially rooted from Nazi support. They created automated methods of keeping up with the jews with punch card systems that increased the success of those genocidal goals of the Nazi's. Those contracts and relationships helped them grow extremely fast as a company, but at what cost? :(

Yes, the 7950GX2 was designed to easily come apart. It had a small PCB connected thet wo main PCBs that slide into little connectors on both PCBs. It was actually very easy to take apart and put back together.



There is a picture of the 7950GX2 taken apart to give you an idea. The two PCBs are only linked by a few screws/risers and a small "link PCB".

There have been a few pictures of the 9800GX2 already dismantled floating around the internet. It seems that it might be a little more complicated to take apart and put back toghether, but it shouldn't be anything crazy. If you can install a water cooling kit and water blocks, then you can more than likely take apart and reassemble the 9800GX2.

newtekie1Yes, the 7950GX2 was designed to easily come apart. It had a small PCB connected thet wo main PCBs that slide into little connectors on both PCBs. It was actually very easy to take apart and put back together.



There is a picture of the 7950GX2 taken apart to give you an idea. The two PCBs are only linked by a few screws/risers and a small "link PCB".

There have been a few pictures of the 9800GX2 already dismantled floating around the internet. It seems that it might be a little more complicated to take apart and put back toghether, but it shouldn't be anything crazy. If you can install a water cooling kit and water blocks, then you can more than likely take apart and reassemble the 9800GX2.

The current way is some ribbon cable, and theres a fan hole on the PCB, which honestly looks a bit fragile.

DaedalusHeliosSadly, IBM's history of success has partially rooted from Nazi support. They created automated methods of keeping up with the jews with punch card systems that increased the success of those genocidal goals of the Nazi's. Those contracts and relationships helped them grow extremely fast as a company, but at what cost? :(

Hey, IBM wasn't the only company back then helping out the Nazi's. ;)

Of course, it's no worse than Google, Yahoo, or Cisco helping out the Chinese government today. All companies have skeletons in their closet.

Here's to hoping that IBM buys them out instead of nvidia!

captainskyhawkHey, IBM wasn't the only company back then helping out the Nazi's. ;)

Of course, it's no worse than Google, Yahoo, or Cisco helping out the Chinese government today. All companies have skeletons in their closet.

Here's to hoping that IBM buys them out instead of nvidia!

China isnt fascist :shadedshu:shadedshu:shadedshu

Be wary how racist your comments sound and all will be okay :) (and get back on topic)

a111087

Looks like they need a new CPU :nutkick:

tkpenaltyThe current way is some ribbon cable, and theres a fan hole on the PCB, which honestly looks a bit fragile.

I know the current way, I've seen the pictures. The ribbon cable shouldn't pose a problem, the connectors used are quick connect, and easily come apart and go back together.

tkpenaltyLooks like they need a new CPU :nutkick:

Without knowing the details behind those numbers, they are meaningless. However, I actually perfer to do some research instead of just posting ignorant crap statements based on numbers I know nothing about.

If you would have bothered to do a little reading about those number you would see some interesting things.

1.) The test setup used was a stock QX6700(2.66GHz). 14,000 is about all you are going to get in 3Dmark06 with a stock QX6700. With the current high end graphics cards, 3Dmark06 is CPU limitted with the C2Q processors at such low speeds. My 8800GTS won't score over 12,100 unless I overclock my Q6600. And then it tops out at 14,000 with the Q6600 at 2.7GHz.

2.) Those runs were rather old drivers. 173.67 to be specific. 174.12 is what I have installed right now, and there are even newer version available. I'm sure the drivers have come a long way since the drivers they used. Those old drivers probably barely had support for the 9800GX2. I'm going to guess nVidia has been doing some optimizations since those drivers.

I'm not going to believe anything I see about the performance of these cards until they are released.

tkpenaltyChina isnt fascist :shadedshu:shadedshu:shadedshu

Be wary how racist your comments sound and all will be okay :) (and get back on topic)

China might have a free market economy, but the government itself has millions of political "dissidents" locked away in prisons.