I'm sick of people arguing over "two cards, one card" WHO CARES!!:shadedshu It's not relevant to anything other than fanboy bickering. Stop it now! Now... is that GeForce lit up by LED?

erockerI'm sick of people arguing over "two cards, one card" WHO CARES!!:shadedshu It's not relevant to anything other than fanboy bickering. Stop it now! Now... is that GeForce lit up by LED?

LOL!!!:laugh::laugh::toast:

yeah, anyways. these 2 x2 card offerings are gonna be obsolete so verry soon

hats off to them for trying though.... the people spoke... the people wanted more power... and they delivered by strapping two of their most powerfull cores into one board (well two boards for nvidia but thats no the point)...

basically this is as good as it gets right now... hopefully they have something else up their sleeves for tomorrow and the next day...

moan as you will but this is it for now... and personally i think thats pretty fucking wicked :)
(excuse my french) hehe

why quibble over advancement in technologies?

-=l32andon=-why quibble over advancement in technologies?

Because it isn't. The 9800 GX2 is simply two pre-existing cards sandwitched together. Anyone can do that, just take some glue and 1+1=2. :toast:

flashstarBecause it isn't. The 9800 GX2 is simply two pre-existing cards sandwitched together. Anyone can do that, just take some glue and 1+1=2. :toast:

No... :shadedshu

It's called the 9800 because it's 65nm right? The 8*00 series is all on 90nm afaik and so the new 9 series designation is to make people aware that they are getting a slightly more refined product (notice the use of refined over improved ;)).

Let's make it nice and simple it's a dual board single slot card or "Duboscard" for short.
ATI makes a very nice dual chip single slot card or "Duchscard" for short.
:rofl:

mandelorebut ATI dont use 2 cards for their dual gpu design ;)

They can't afford to. They are to poor! lol

Have you looked at AMD's worth? The company is in shambles. Nobody in there right mind would buy that stock right now. IBM is looking, and Nvidia might buy if they aren't sold by Q4 2008. The problem is finding a company willing to buy AMD right now despite that its "deep in the black"(debt).

AMD could pull through and pay off its debt, and do well again. That would take alot of good moves to get there.
;)

It's called the 9800 because it's 65nm right? The 8*00 series is all on 90nm afaik and so the new 9 series designation is to make people aware that they are getting a slightly more refined product (notice the use of refined over improved ).

8800gt 512mb, 8800gt 256mb, 8800gts 512mb, and 8800gs were all 65nm G92's or G92 variants. ;)

I find it interesting that one PCB uses the 6-pin connector, and the other uses the 8-pin. I wonder if the 8-pin will be required. The PCB that uses the 6-pin is also the one that plugs into the PCI-E slot. So I assume it needs less power from the power connector, and the other PCB needs all its power from the power connecter, and hence they used the beefed up 8-pin.

tkpenaltyIts two cards facing each other. While it does look like one of the most sleekest cards, I really think this card will be a big flop due to many reasons.

1. PCB - The design is simply fragile....
2. Cooling, and heat from card - Shrouding the card like that isnt smart as it traps heat, even if there is a fan and a massive grille on the side, not all the heat will be able to leave the enclosure
3. Performance - There is a heavy implication on the performance as the G92 (8800GT) cores are underclocked by a large amount. This makes this card perform worse than 2x8800GT in SLi.
4. Price - Nvidia, please make it cheaper!
5 Aftermarket cooling capabilities - Thats next to none. Unlike the simple 7950GX2's design, this.... looks hard.

1.) How is the design fragile? It isn't.
2.) The heat is exhausted out the back of the card, it will definitely run hot, but that is to be expected from any dual-GPU card. I doubt heat will be a major issue, it can't be much worse than the 80°C temps we are seeing on the 3870x2.
3.) Core are underclocked by a large amount? You really have no idea what you are talking about do you? The cores are clocked EXACTLY the same as the 8800GT(600/1500). The memory is 100MHz faster than the 8800GT though. Oh, and there is also the small matter of the fact that the G92-450 cores used in the 9800GX2 will have the full 128 SP's enabled instead of just the 112 SP's on the 8800GT.
4.) No official price has been set yet, you have no argument until an official price has been set. I've seen price estimates ranging from $400 to $650, I'll wait until the thing is actually released before I judge the price.
5.) The standard air cooling solutions are out the window on this card, yes. However, most of them are out the window on the 3870x2 and 7950GX2 also. However, designing a waterblock for this should be MUCH easier than the 7950GX2. Because the cooler on the 9800GX2 is sandwiched between the cores, a single waterblock can use used that cools both cores, unlike the 7950GX2 which requires 2 seperate waterblocks.

tkpenaltyIts two cards facing each other. While it does look like one of the most sleekest cards, I really think this card will be a big flop due to many reasons.

1. PCB - The design is simply fragile....
2. Cooling, and heat from card - Shrouding the card like that isnt smart as it traps heat, even if there is a fan and a massive grille on the side, not all the heat will be able to leave the enclosure
3. Performance - There is a heavy implication on the performance as the G92 (8800GT) cores are underclocked by a large amount. This makes this card perform worse than 2x8800GT in SLi.
4. Price - Nvidia, please make it cheaper!
5 Aftermarket cooling capabilities - Thats next to none. Unlike the simple 7950GX2's design, this.... looks hard.

I have no respect for you as of now. :shadedshu
Most of what you're saying is false and I'm pretty sure you've done this before.

To everybody:
1. Whats your guess on how much it will cost(MSRP)?
2. Whats your guess on the performance of 9800GX2 X2 versus 9800gtx Tri-SLI?

I am not sure, so please tell me what you think it will be.

PrudentPrincessI have no respect for you as of now. :shadedshu
Most of what you're saying is false and I'm pretty sure you've done this before.

Yep, I just wish more people would be as smart as you. He is a huge ATi fanboy(despite claiming to have an nVidia GPU). He constantly spreads nVidia mis-information. And when he is called on it he usually freaks out and repeats himself over and over again, and pretends like he has power around here, and even makes meaningless threats.

DaedalusHeliosTo everybody:
1. Whats your guess on how much it will cost(MSRP)?
2. Whats your guess on the performance of 9800GX2 X2 versus 9800gtx Tri-SLI?

I am not sure, so please tell me what you think it will be.

1.) It depends on overall performance. If nVidia thinks the performance will be higher than the 3870x2, then you can bet it will cost more. Personally, I think the performance could be better than the 3870x2, considering 2 8800GTs in SLI outperform a 3870x2, and the 9800GX2 is better than 2 8800GTs in SLI. It is really all going to come down to performance of the card. I would guess $550, but all we can really do is guess and speculate. The reason I pick that number is because that is roughly the cost of 2 8800GTS 512MB cards, maybe a little more than that, and that is essentially what you are getting with the 9800GX2. You aren't going to get as good of a price:performance ratio that you get with lower then G92 card, but that is always the case as you go up in performance.

2.) I would guess the 9800GTX in Tri-SLI will outperform a single 9800GX2. But the price of a single 9800GX2 will be far less than 3 9800GTX cards. Personally, I don't think Tri-SLI is worth it in any way, it is only good for breaking benchmark records, just like CrossfireX.

newtekie1Yep, I just wish more people would be as smart as you. He is a huge ATi fanboy(despite claiming to have an nVidia GPU). He constantly spreads nVidia mis-information. And when he is called on it he usually freaks out and repeats himself over and over again, and pretends like he has power around here, and even makes meaningless threats.

Yeah heres a taste of what I've seen from him:

"9800GTX is the SAME thing as the 8800GTS 512MB..."

"That cooler is just a 8800GT's cooler multiplied by two and soldered together....... I smell overheating." <talking about 9800

Yeah, but what about two 9800GX2's in SLI? Do you think it will beat 8800ultra Tri-SLI?

Sorry about all the questions. :o

That is my planned configuration for my gaming rig that is waiting in my bedroom with an Asus P5N-T 780i !!! :)

I don't know, I would guess 2 9800GX2's in SLI would beat 3 9800GTX's or 8800Ultra's in Tri-SLI, but we will have to see once the cards come out.

DaedalusHeliosThey can't afford to. They are to poor! lol

Have you looked at AMD's worth? The company is in shambles. Nobody in there right mind would buy that stock right now. IBM is looking, and Nvidia might buy if they aren't sold by Q4 2008. The problem is finding a company willing to buy AMD right now despite that its "deep in the black"(debt).

AMD could pull through and pay off its debt, and do well again. That would take alot of good moves to get there.
;)



8800gt 512mb, 8800gt 256mb, 8800gts 512mb, and 8800gs were all 65nm G92's or G92 variants. ;)

Yeah, and I'm sure it was that and had nothing to do with design aspects of it.....

Wasn't it Nv that had been asking their partners to cut back on production costs for their cards b/c they were currently costing too much to make? Meanwhile ATI seems to be able to adjust prices as needed and still turn a profit. ATI didn't make a sandwhich b/c the single PCB route is most likely more practical for them, partners and consumers not b/c they can't afford their current operating costs.

I'd probably question the validity of the stock speculation as well... I'll be the first to admit I know jack about the stock market but if you look at the higher points for AMD, ATI, or Nvidia and consider that in the worst case scenario AMD would most likely be bought out by someone I'd imagine buying AMD during a low point won't be the worst buy you'll make. I mean I've been looking at it a bit over the past months.. if you bought it at their worst point you would currently have made like 30% on your investment

A lot of AMDs troubles can be attributed to the purchase of ATI but it was also predicted that would happen and it would take a while to digest the acquisition and start to really see the benefit of absorbing ATI. We now see ATI poised to really compete vs. Nvidia now, and even if AMD is not as well positioned I'd be willing to be there's still a decent chunk of things it still has going for it that people don't really consider. Their joint ventures with IBM are probably worth a pretty penny. I don't know how much they get out of the deals but for example that recent story about the two of them prducing the a successful EUV lithographed test chip sounds like it might hold a great amount of potential. If they stay ahead of the curb that is tech that Intel, Samsung, Toshiba and any number of companies will be wanting in a bad way.

newtekie15.) The standard air cooling solutions are out the window on this card, yes. However, most of them are out the window on the 3870x2 and 7950GX2 also. However, designing a waterblock for this should be MUCH easier than the 7950GX2. Because the cooler on the 9800GX2 is sandwiched between the cores, a single waterblock can use used that cools both cores, unlike the 7950GX2 which requires 2 seperate waterblocks.

I think it was you that made this comment on another thread and I questioned it then but didn't get a reply.. Could you explain how that single water block idea would work out?

I've never played with water coolling but if there are two chips, one above & one below, wouldn't the materials still mostly be the same minus the extra connection? But more importantly how would that be designed to achieve good contact on both chips while still being practical. I can't imagine that being something you just slide in, wouldn't it either be too tight (requiring you to force it) going in or too loose once it's in if you didn't have to force it?

The only way I could see that working is if the 2nd pcb is removable so you could reattach it over the water block after you've put it on against the first chip (but even then what's the real benefit there? Would the single double sided water block be significantly cheaper than two normal ones?

But that brings me back to one of the major concerns (and I think this is what the guy you quoated was getting at) that I think you overlook... the practicality of actually working with this card. That an normal aftermarket cooler wouldn't work on this card would be a given obviously. But should a company design one for the dual chips (essentially similiar to their normal models but extended I would guess?), wouldn't it be a lot easier to replace the cooling on the ATI card since it should take the usual procedure? With the Nv card it seems like you'd have to take the whole thing apart and put it back together or else work in some extremely limited space.


As for #4 on your list I'm pretty sure there was a post last week that had the roadmap for the 9 series that listed the x2 as < $599 so we can guess it'll at least be between $500 & $600 bucks with a fair amount of certainty.

ugly card. they hide the two cards with that crappy cooler lol
not worth 600$

tkpenaltyIts two cards facing each other. While it does look like one of the most sleekest cards, I really think this card will be a big flop due to many reasons.

1. PCB - The design is simply fragile....
2. Cooling, and heat from card - Shrouding the card like that isnt smart as it traps heat, even if there is a fan and a massive grille on the side, not all the heat will be able to leave the enclosure
3. Performance - There is a heavy implication on the performance as the G92 (8800GT) cores are underclocked by a large amount. This makes this card perform worse than 2x8800GT in SLi.
4. Price - Nvidia, please make it cheaper!
5 Aftermarket cooling capabilities - Thats next to none. Unlike the simple 7950GX2's design, this.... looks hard.

I agree with most of what you are saying, tk :) but I dont think it will be to fragile.

Also @ newtekie theres no way a single water block could be used safely, when you install the water block it would have to scrape against both cores, not mentioning how to cool the memory..

My estimate is that this will get about the same performance as two 9800GTX's as it looks like it has the same cores as the 9800GTX sofar. :ohwell:

I think it will cost between 600$-800$ as I dont see nvidia releasing one 9800GTX for less than 400$

newtekie1Yep, I just wish more people would be as smart as you. He is a huge ATi fanboy(despite claiming to have an nVidia GPU). He constantly spreads nVidia mis-information. And when he is called on it he usually freaks out and repeats himself over and over again, and pretends like he has power around here, and even makes meaningless threats.



1.) It depends on overall performance. If nVidia thinks the performance will be higher than the 3870x2, then you can bet it will cost more. Personally, I think the performance could be better than the 3870x2, considering 2 8800GTs in SLI outperform a 3870x2, and the 9800GX2 is better than 2 8800GTs in SLI. It is really all going to come down to performance of the card. I would guess $550, but all we can really do is guess and speculate. The reason I pick that number is because that is roughly the cost of 2 8800GTS 512MB cards, maybe a little more than that, and that is essentially what you are getting with the 9800GX2. You aren't going to get as good of a price:performance ratio that you get with lower then G92 card, but that is always the case as you go up in performance.

2.) I would guess the 9800GTX in Tri-SLI will outperform a single 9800GX2. But the price of a single 9800GX2 will be far less than 3 9800GTX cards. Personally, I don't think Tri-SLI is worth it in any way, it is only good for breaking benchmark records, just like CrossfireX.

Look at how you attack his credibility first then discuss the aspects of the card.
If a card looks junky, people are going to say so regardless of the brand; that doesn't make tkpenalty a fanboy, but your eagerness to defend nVidia sure does cast you in a bad light.

Heres my usual "how I think this card will turn out" post.
Warning: Lots of guessing and speculation based on no real facts :p.

1) It will run Hot: about the same as the 8800GT w/ original fan. The covering over it wont cause much of a heat problem.
2) It will outperform the HD3870X2 by a decent margin (HD3870X2: ~15000 3Dmarks, 9800GX2: ~ 16000 3D Marks)
3) It will cost ~ $550
4) Fragility won't be a problem for anyone who builds high-end PCs such as one this would go into
5) There will be a few waterblocks available for it
6) 2 of these will beat 3 9800GTXs in Tri-SLI by a small margin
7) The SLI will scale very well (9600GTs are the first nvidia cards to almost reach 200% efficiency in an SLI setup as apposed to a single card)
8) These will overclock very well, but will require watercooling to do any
9) nvidia will make the 8-pin required for overclocking just like ATI

If this card misses more then 2 of my criteria above I will probably go for the HD3870X2, because those are looking better every day.

-Indybird

I just wanted to add my 2cents on the design aspect here. This is an argument that even happens about AMD and Intel Quad Cores, and my response is the same, the means of getting there doesn't matter, only the end result matters.

That said, I'm still skeptical about this card. Not because of it's design, but because of what happened the last time NV released a dual gpu card right before a new line released. Good driver support dropped off the face of the planet. Hopefully this case is different, however.

brian.caYeah, and I'm sure it was that and had nothing to do with design aspects of it.....

Wasn't it Nv that had been asking their partners to cut back on production costs for their cards b/c they were currently costing too much to make? Meanwhile ATI seems to be able to adjust prices as needed and still turn a profit. ATI didn't make a sandwhich b/c the single PCB route is most likely more practical for them, partners and consumers not b/c they can't afford their current operating costs.

1. It was a joke :rolleyes:about not affording the PCBs. Nvidia has run a surplus for how many business quarters? Exactly. ATi is deep in debt, and nvidia makes massive profits due to cutting back on costs. ATi is not turning a profit because it is part of AMD which is falling fast.

My source is TomsHardware:

"Nvidia has a lot of money in the bank, currently about $2.4 billion, but to eat up a company like AMD, it would have to cough up somewhere in the tune of $10 billion, since AMD is $5.4 billion in debt."

brian.caI'd probably question the validity of the stock speculation as well... I'll be the first to admit I know jack about the stock market but if you look at the higher points for AMD, ATI, or Nvidia and consider that in the worst case scenario AMD would most likely be bought out by someone I'd imagine buying AMD during a low point won't be the worst buy you'll make. I mean I've been looking at it a bit over the past months.. if you bought it at their worst point you would currently have made like 30% on your investment

AMD/ATi could go bankrupt in under a year if this trend continues. I hope they don't because competition is what moves technology forward but the writing is on the wall.

Again from TomsHardware:

"AMD is currently valued at $3.88 billion and Nvidia goes for $13.44 billion."

"AMD has been trading below a $4 billion market value for some time and there are many companies out there, which could purchase AMD in a snap, if they wanted to get into the CPU business."

That is a pretty deep low for a company with a one time market cap of $23 billion. :eek:

brian.caA lot of AMDs troubles can be attributed to the purchase of ATI but it was also predicted that would happen and it would take a while to digest the acquisition and start to really see the benefit of absorbing ATI. We now see ATI poised to really compete vs. Nvidia now, and even if AMD is not as well positioned I'd be willing to be there's still a decent chunk of things it still has going for it that people don't really consider. Their joint ventures with IBM are probably worth a pretty penny. I don't know how much they get out of the deals but for example that recent story about the two of them prducing the a successful EUV lithographed test chip sounds like it might hold a great amount of potential. If they stay ahead of the curb that is tech that Intel, Samsung, Toshiba and any number of companies will be wanting in a bad way

What they are making from those deals still will obviously not keep them out of debt, because they are still in debt. They become more in debt every month. They would need to take back the CPU market and GPU market for a full quarter, to rise again to their original AMD market cap of $23 billion considering they also have ATi (GPU market).

Source:
www.tomshardware.com/2008/02/14/amd_merge_or_not/page3.html

PS. Brian.ca don't debate with me about it unless you have done the reading.
Then its just about you trying to argue with me.
I am obviously not an Nvidia fanboy because my most used computer has an OC'ed 3850. ;)

a111087well, its a single video card, you can't call it 2 video cards.

Thats like saying that Intel's quad core are two dual cores inside one package. However its integrated, whether it be 4 cores in a single CPU or dual PCB's inside a single gfx card, it is still a quad core/single GFX card.

I already know that the 9800GX2 looks like a box. I want to see pictures with the cooler off of the card...