newtekie1But the 8800GTS overclocks a lot better than the 4850. Everything I have seen show the 4850 overclocking like crap. So if you overclock the gap gets narrower.

The way I see it, the 4850 is brand new, and it probably features entirely new problems in setting clock speeds (independent shader clocks and all that), so lets refrain from judging its overclocking ability just yet until more people hack away. ;)

mdm-adphThe way I see it, the 4850 is brand new, and it probably features entirely new problems in setting clock speeds (independent shader clocks and all that), so lets refrain from judging its overclocking ability just yet until more people hack away. ;)

Why? It isn't entirely new, and the "people" that do the hacking have had a decent amount of time to hack away at it to figure it out. The 4850 just doesn't overclock well. It could be the single slot cooler that lets it heat up to 90+C or it could be that ATi is binning the GPUs to put higher clocking ones in the 4870s, but either way the 4850 is definitely not a good overclocker. I'm sure as the overclocking programs get tweaked a little, we will see slight increases, but I don't think we will see major jumps in overclocking potential.

newtekie1Why? It isn't entirely new, and the "people" that do the hacking have had a decent amount of time to hack away at it to figure it out. The 4850 just doesn't overclock well. It could be the single slot cooler that lets it heat up to 90+C or it could be that ATi is binning the GPUs to put higher clocking ones in the 4870s, but either way the 4850 is definitely not a good overclocker. I'm sure as the overclocking programs get tweaked a little, we will see slight increases, but I don't think we will see major jumps in overclocking potential.

other thing is they could be limited by stock vgpu

the simple truth is Nvidia is trying to cover up with excuses the "9800GTX" like amd does with cpu's as of late with a promise of the same but new and improved...9800GTX+:laugh: nvidia fanboys just can't stand the thought of ATI stepping on Nvidia's toes with a better product for less money.
All the promises do not change what is today.....the 4850 and hopefully the 4870 look to be real bargains....Face it.........ATI wins this round............the 9800GTX+ is just another minor improvement but the same old bullsh*t.

newtekie1Why? It isn't entirely new, and the "people" that do the hacking have had a decent amount of time to hack away at it to figure it out. The 4850 just doesn't overclock well. It could be the single slot cooler that lets it heat up to 90+C or it could be that ATi is binning the GPUs to put higher clocking ones in the 4870s, but either way the 4850 is definitely not a good overclocker. I'm sure as the overclocking programs get tweaked a little, we will see slight increases, but I don't think we will see major jumps in overclocking potential.

Newtekie...do you own a 4850 to state that claim? Plus as drivers mature so does performance ....this goes in both camps ....Nvidia's and ATI's.
Back your claim with facts ......not release drivers/design alone ........the 4850 was just released ......get real

HAL7000Newtekie...do you own a 4850 to state that claim? Plus as drivers mature so does performance ....this goes in both camps ....Nvidia's and ATI's.
Back your claim with facts ......not release drivers/design alone ........the 4850 was just released ......get real

dont feed the troll, hes clearly an nvidia fanboi(also known as nvidiots).

i have an 8800gts, it works fine, acctualy faster then the 9800gtx and gtx+ are stock, but its far from perfect, the 177.35 drivers so far seem to be a boost, but.....well nvidia better not cripple the relece version of them on sub 9800 cards, if they do, they will loose alot of their user base, since ati never pulls that, and now has a line of cards coming out that compete in the highest selling price range :)

HAL7000the simple truth is Nvidia is trying to cover up with excuses the "9800GTX" like amd does with cpu's as of late with a promise of the same but new and improved...9800GTX+:laugh: nvidia fanboys just can't stand the thought of ATI stepping on Nvidia's toes with a better product for less money.
All the promises do not change what is today.....the 4850 and hopefully the 4870 look to be real bargains....Face it.........ATI wins this round............the 9800GTX+ is just another minor improvement but the same old bullsh*t.

The HD4850 is a great card, I never said it wasn't, I don't think anyone is saying it isn't a great card here. However, thinking that nVidia products are suddly crap because ATi has a good product that competes with it is a clear sign of fanboyism.

You are right, the 9800GTX+ is just a small improvement, but really that is all nVidia needs to continue to be competitive(and of course price drops, which they have done to meet competition). The 9800GTX is already available for $199 to match the HD4850's price, and I expect it to go down beyond that price to match ATi's price to performance.

HAL7000Newtekie...do you own a 4850 to state that claim? Plus as drivers mature so does performance ....this goes in both camps ....Nvidia's and ATI's.
Back your claim with facts ......not release drivers/design alone ........the 4850 was just released ......get real

If by own you mean have on in one of my personal machines, then no I don't. But I did install one in a customer's machine today and played around with it. Beyond that, you don't have to own a card to know things about it, no matter how much you seem to think the opposite. You can learn a lot from reviews and the talk around forums, and the reviews and talk from experts in overclocking(including Wizzard, the creator of this site and ATITool) is that the 4850 simply doesn't overclock well. The card was just released, but it has been available for at least a weak to all the reviewers, who also happen to be the people who make the overclocking software(not that they need it, if worst comes to worst, BIOS flashes are the weapon of choice, and there is no break in period with a new card and BIOS flashing, Wizard has done several reviews where the only option to overclock was BIOS flashing, so if it came to that with the HD4850 he would have done it). The fact is that the HD4850 can be overclock using software already available, and it overclocks like shit. Updates to the software MIGHT improve that overclocking slightly, but it isn't going to make huge gains. The clock speeds can be increased without problem, the cards just artifact at low speeds.

PedoBearApprovesdont feed the troll, hes clearly an nvidia fanboi(also known as nvidiots).

I find your post filled with irony.

1.) You are new to the forums, and one of your first posts is flaming. And I am the troll?
2.) Look at my sig, two of my 4 machines have ATi cards in them. Yep, I'm a fanboy alright. And before the HD3850 and 8800GS I had x1950Pros in those machines, in fact I have had a few x1950Pros, which I have sold am selling on this site. A fanboy that owns both ATi and nVidia hardware, that makes sense.:banghead:

I actually ordered two of those 8800 GTS 512 :D they're going to my cousins' place in NY, will come to me in July.

btarunrI actually ordered two of those 8800 GTS 512 :D they're going to my cousins' place in NY, will come to me in July.

need a bios mod to let the 8800gts be seen as a 9800gtx :)

SheetCakeneed a bios mod to let the 8800gts be seen as a 9800gtx :)

That only works on the Galaxy ones from Asia. ;)

im sure theres a way to mod the bios to get the device to be seen as a 9800gtx, just a matter of somebody figuaring out how, nvidia better not try and lock the new driver perf boosts to the 9800gtx with driver blocks, people will be pissed(im one of them!!)

The 4850 is still the better card. DX10.1, continual driver improvements, more potent shader throughput for future games, better AA performance, lower price - plus within 2 weeks the 4850 will hit $169, the GTX and GTX+ are expensive to make compared to ATi's parts which are low-binned cores.

Well the G92 doesnt cost very much to produce my reasoning is they can afford to sell the 8800GS for 99 bucks which is a G92 core with parts turned off.

If they really wanted to that board could be produced @ 130 most likly

candle_86Well the G92 doesnt cost very much to produce my reasoning is they can afford to sell the 8800GS for 99 bucks which is a G92 core with parts turned off.

If they really wanted to that board could be produced @ 130 most likly

Damn right, if it did come to $120 - $140 for arguments sake that would put a small thorn in ATI's side no doubt, After all it is price vs performance that dictates the majority's purchasing ways and if it come to that i would have a hard time deciding.

well if the 4850 gets faster or OC's better to out preform it theres a good chance the 9800GTX will drop in price to compete again at 199 its right there with it so im not bothered, id prolly go 9800GTX simply to save hassle

candle_86Well the G92 doesnt cost very much to produce my reasoning is they can afford to sell the 8800GS for 99 bucks which is a G92 core with parts turned off.

If they really wanted to that board could be produced @ 130 most likly

those are defective cores that would have been trashed, so it dosnt cost nvidia anything extra to use them vs trashing them, so they use them to make a crap card that they can sell and at least get some $ out of their defective cores.

v-zeroThe 4850 is still the better card. DX10.1, continual driver improvements, more potent shader throughput for future games, better AA performance, lower price - plus within 2 weeks the 4850 will hit $169, the GTX and GTX+ are expensive to make compared to ATi's parts which are low-binned cores.

There are already 8800GTS 512MB's available for $159, and HD4850's available for $169. I don't think the 9800GTX priced at $199 is low enough for it to be competitive, however, I also don't think that the street price will be $199. Cards usually sell for less than the MSRP, case in point, the $169 HD4850's and the $159 8800GTS.

As to wich is the better card, I don't think the HD4850 is better. At stock it is the better card, but overclocked the 8800GTS and 9800GTX take the lead. So which is better really comes down to what kind of person you are, an overclocker or not. Saying one is clearly better then the other in all situations is wrong, IMO. They both have their strengths and weaknesses.

SheetCakeim sure theres a way to mod the bios to get the device to be seen as a 9800gtx, just a matter of somebody figuaring out how, nvidia better not try and lock the new driver perf boosts to the 9800gtx with driver blocks, people will be pissed(im one of them!!)

They haven't, people are already reporting the performance increase affects all G92 based cards. Also, has anyone here picked up on the fact that nVidia just added PhysX support to all G92 and G80 cards also?

newtekie1, ...but tell me why the negatives concerning the 4850, and nothing about 9800GTX or the + version, Nvidia released 2 of the same card basically ....well it appears that Nvidia is loosing some ground these days....scrambling to make something competitive. I am not a graphics guru nor do I claim to be, but it sounds like to me you are trying and failing to second guess the labs at AMD/ATI. You know this is the first release (4850) and it is good, try not to make more of it than needs to be. You need facts to back up claims, not opinions.

Try some mentioning some 9800GTX+ facts/ opinions in this string. This is about the 9800GTX+ and not a 4850 bash.
I don't think you are trolling either .:toast:

HAL7000newtekie1, ...but tell me why the negatives concerning the 4850, and nothing about 9800GTX or the + version, Nvidia released 2 of the same card basically ....well it appears that Nvidia is loosing some ground these days....scrambling to make something competitive. I am not a graphics guru nor do I claim to be, but it sounds like to me you are trying and failing to second guess the labs at AMD/ATI. You know this is the first release (4850) and it is good, try not to make more of it than needs to be. You need facts to back up claims, not opinions.

Try some mentioning some 9800GTX+ facts/ opinions in this string. This is about the 9800GTX+ and not a 4850 bash.
I don't think you are trolling either .:toast:

My talk about the 4850 was entirely in responce to talk already posted about the 4850. The topic is about the 9800GTX+, but the discussion is about multiple cards, and how the 9800GTX+ fits in to the industry.

The 9800GTX+ is virtually identical to the 9800GTX, but it is a die shrink. It is a common practice in the industry to just simply release a die shrunk version of the same GPU. ATi did the same thing with the 3800 series, it was just a die shrink of the 2900 GPU. It makes production cheaper, and usually improves performance.

Down playing the negatives of the 4850 by simply saying "well it is only their first release" isn't a good argument. I'm hoping the 4870 will be a better overclocker, but right now I don't know that it is. I do know that the 4850 is a poor overclocker, that isn't an opinion, that is a fact based on what I have personally seen and what I have read of other's experiences with the card. What other unreleased cards might do isn't really a part of this discussion. Simply saying the card is a bad overclocker isn't bashing the card, or bashing ATi, aren't we getting a little on the defensive here? Simply pointing out that the card isn't God's gift to the Video Card Industry suddenly means I am trying to second guess ATi? You know it is possible to point out negatives of a card and not hate it, right? We aren't in a black and white world. It isn't a case of you either love it entirely, or hate it. I'm not bashing the HD4850 in any way, pointing out a few negatives isn't bashing.

And if you would actually read more of my posts then just the parts that concern you, the HD4850 "bashing", you would see that I have posted plenty of other facts and information about the 9800GTX+. Like the PhysX support that nVidia just added, which oddly hasn't been talked about at all anywhere on these forums from what I have seen, and IMO is a major thing. Odd how you missed that, almost like you were so enraged that anyone would speak negatively in any way about your beloved ATi and it's products, you just completely skipped anything that wasn't related to that. For someone that throws the word fanboy around so quickly...oh, nevermind...

farlex85Now if AMD can do the same on the processor front, then we will be rolling.........

I hope they can. Lets see what they can pull out of there nvm

newtekie1Simply pointing out that the card isn't God's gift to the Video Card Industry suddenly means I am trying to second guess ATi? You know it is possible to point out negatives of a card and not hate it, right? We aren't in a black and white world. It isn't a case of you either love it entirely, or hate it. I'm not bashing the HD4850 in any way, pointing out a few negatives isn't bashing.

And if you would actually read more of my posts then just the parts that concern you, the HD4850 "bashing", you would see that I have posted plenty of other facts and information about the 9800GTX+. Like the PhysX support that nVidia just added, which oddly hasn't been talked about at all anywhere on these forums from what I have seen, and IMO is a major thing. Odd how you missed that, almost like you were so enraged that anyone would speak negatively in any way about your beloved ATi and it's products, you just completely skipped anything that wasn't related to that. For someone that throws the word fanboy around so quickly...oh, nevermind...

You miss what I was saying,,,,,I have read other post from you, if you look back at my prior post you will see that it ended in a positive. I did not miss out on what you said but as you stated.....it is all positive for the 9800GTX+ and negative for the 4850.
Share the links that you have concerning the poor over clocking of the 4850. I would like to read them as well.
You see it took Nvidia 2 releases to make a 9800GTX+....to me they are loosing ground, esp when the 280 $$$$$$ runs like shit as well....getting beat out in some benches by the low end 4850 and others by the 9800GX2. ...as we read in the TPU reviews.,,,FACT.
So is it wise to buy the 9800GTX+....nope....not worth the money.
I am far from being any fan boy..... just read my signature....they all piss me off...

newtekie1ATi did the same thing with the 3800 series, it was just a die shrink of the 2900 GPU. It makes production cheaper, and usually improves performance.

this craps what makes people say your bias nvidia fanboi, first, the 3800 was a die shrink but it want just a die shrink, check the details out, they also improoved the avivo support yeah thats right the 2900's avivo sucked/sucks it dosnt even really work, the 3800 cards works like a charm(better then purevideo)

they also changed other things, if i remmber correctly there are acctualy LESS transistors in the 3800's then the 2900's yet the perf is the same or better in many cases.......how can it be a pure die shrink if the number of transistors changes and they effectivly add a new unit for video decoding(avivo)?




click the image for source, note 3800=666m vs 2900@700m so if its a pure die shrink where did the 34million transistors go??????

and why was video decoding performace boosted so drasticly?

if i see a link showing the 4850 beating an 8800GT, and not hating crossfire in a 16x/4x board.. i'll go get two.

Musselsif i see a link showing the 4850 beating an 8800GT, and not hating crossfire in a 16x/4x board.. i'll go get two.

Well the first one look at any review, overall performance the 4850 wins usually. 3dmark and certain games still favor nvidia. As for the 16x/4x, why would you want to anyway? If your gonna run two cards, might as well sell your board and do it right. ;)

farlex85Well the first one look at any review, overall performance the 4850 wins usually. 3dmark and certain games still favor nvidia. As for the 16x/4x, why would you want to anyway? If your gonna run two cards, might as well sell your board and do it right. ;)

because i LIKE my board... if i was selling the board, i'd grab an SLI one and get another passive, vmodded 8800GT...