Friday, September 22nd 2017

Intel Core i7 8700K Reportedly Reaches 4.8 GHz Easily, 5 GHz+ Requires Delid

A report out of Expreview says that users should expect Intel's 8700K 6-core processor to easily clock up to 4.8 GHz with conventional cooling methods. Apparently, the chip doesn't even need that much voltage to achieve this feat either; however, thermal constraints are quickly hit when pushing Intel's latest (upcoming) leader for the mainstream desktop parts. Expreview says that due to the much increased temperatures, users who want to eke out the most performance from their CPU purchase will likely have to try and resort to delidding of their 8700K. While that likely wouldn't have been necessary with Intel's 7700K processors, remember that here we have two extra CPU cores drawing power and producing waste heat, so it makes sense that thermals will be a bigger problem.

This is understandable: Intel is still using their much chagrined (and divisive) TIM as a heat conductor between the CPU die and the CPU's IHS (Integrated Heat Spreader), which has been proven to be a less than adequate way of conducting said heat. However, we all knew this would be the case; remember that Intel's HEDT HCC processors also feature this TIM, and in that case, we're talking of up to 18-core processors that can cost up to $1,999 - if Intel couldn't be bothered to spend the extra cents for actual solder as an interface material there, they certainly wouldn't do so here. As with almost all peeks at as of yet unreleased products, take this report (particularly when it comes to frequencies, as each CPU overclocks differently) with a grain of salt, please.

Source: Expreview
Add your own comment

117 Comments on Intel Core i7 8700K Reportedly Reaches 4.8 GHz Easily, 5 GHz+ Requires Delid

#1
eidairaman1
The Exiled Airman
Funny how Intel is talking about clocks again... 5.0GHz? I'm on air without extreme modding to reach that.
Posted on Reply
#2
phanbuey
danbert2000 said:
phanbuey, did you read the article I posted? I'm not the one making the case for solder as the TIM being more prone to failure, the nice people at overclocking.guide are. I was just relaying what I read as it's a counterpoint to the author's position that Intel is only doing this for the money. Also, I did not use the XBOX 360 RROD fiasco as proof of why solder TIM is a bad idea, I gave it as an example of solder failing under thermal load. Before that post, the mood of this thread was derision at the mere thought that solder instead of paste could cause problems. You need to respect the difference between an example of general solder failure rather than a link in my argument. I know why everyone jumped on the 360 stuff though, that's a lot easier to argue against than the analysis in the article I posted, which is pretty solid.

To your point about thermal paste drying out, it won't dry out in a sealed environment like a heatspreader, or at least not for decades. Where is the moisture going to go?

Thanks for being civil while arguing against me, it's a lot easier to have a discussion when people aren't throwing "troll" and "ignore list" around.
I did go back and read the article - and I realized after i read your initial post what you actually meant.
My problem with the article was that his statements are unfounded: "Micro cracks in solder preforms can damage the CPU permanently after a certain amount of thermal cycles and time. Conventional thermal paste doesn’t perform as good as the solder preform but it should have a longer durability – especially for small size DIE CPUs."


He is mainly implying that die size is a relevant factor, which is not true because Skylake-X are gigantic dies, and they are still TIM'ed - so that is already a warning that he is being pretty liberal with his assumptions. Also, solder cracks - but with a professional application, you won't have voids, and specially designed compounds shouldn't crack if they are specc'd to handle the thermal load.

What this article says is "If you solder your CPU, which wasn't designed to be soldered, in your house using compounds designed for general purpose soldering and a heatspreader that is not properly spaced, it will probably crack and you will break your CPU" = which is 100% true. But the assertion that this also happens to professional grade sTIMs is iffy, and that when it does it actually breaks the chip is even iffier.

regarding the TIM:
danbert2000 said:
Where is the moisture going to go?
- the fact that there is "moisture" coming off of the thermal paste would make me think that it is chemically separating (take with a grain of salt) - it won't leave the area of the heatspreader, but it may (or may not) find its way back to where it needs to be within the TIM and be re-absorbed into the compound.

Ultimately we just don't know why intel chose TIM, but if I was a betting man it would be cost / manufacturing constraints and not because sTIM are more or less reliable than TIMs. I do appreciate the counterpoint, that there is a +/- to any technique....
Posted on Reply
#3
Vya Domus
eidairaman1 said:
Funny how Intel is talking about clocks again... 5.0GHz? I'm on air without extreme modding to reach that.
And with a fairly old architecture on a fairly antiquated manufacturing process.
Posted on Reply
#4
eidairaman1
The Exiled Airman
Vya Domus said:
And with a fairly old architecture on a fairly antiquated manufacturing process.
Considering the 9370 and 9590 needed water...

My point being is after Ryzen came about Intel started pushing "5.0GHz" also older architectures don't typically clock better...
Posted on Reply
#5
Vya Domus
Well , achieving high clocks is tricky business , but on today's nodes it isn't that amazing to have a chip running at 5 Ghz.
Posted on Reply
#6
OSdevr
Vya Domus said:
You claimed the Xbox 360's high failure rate was due to those "micro-cracks". Which is simply false , the low temperature solder Microsoft used would easily reach the melting point due to poor cooling causing the solder points to deform and ultimately brake connection.
Sorry but this is incorrect. All solder has a melting point well beyond the operating temperature of the components BECAUSE it could melt otherwise. In the case of the 360 it actually may have helped if the balls softened; those cracks would seal up then.

danbert2000 said:
http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/
Just read that article. It is somewhat well researched yet comes to a completely wrong conclusion. I happen to know a few things about chip design and packaging (don't ask how). For example there is no need for Indium in bonding the die to the IHS. As shown in the article's Figure 7 both the top of the die and underside of the IHS are gold plated. Any solder can join gold to gold.

I should point out that there are decades old power electronics which use solder connections and they still run just fine, and the connections (like in the Xbox 360) suffer a much greater thermal gradient than solder between a die and IHS.
Posted on Reply
#7
goodeedidid
danbert2000 said:
It's not really valid to suggest that Intel is using TIM on processors just to save money. Soldering chips to heat spreaders is a great way to get rid of heat, but the solder itself will degrade faster than TIM and Intel is in the business of supplying chips for a lot of long-duration, intensive tasks, such as enterprise servers. If Intel can hit thermal targets with TIM and have the chips last longer, I'm sure they don't care that enthusiasts have to delid their chips for a scant 200 MHz of extra speed.
Thank you!
Posted on Reply
#8
FR@NK
The news editors on TPU are doing a great job flame war baiting most of you guys....

Regardless of whats between the silicon and heatspreader, the 8700K will be a great processor even at stock speeds.
Posted on Reply
#9
Vya Domus
OSdevr said:
Sorry but this is incorrect. All solder has a melting point well beyond the operating temperature of the components BECAUSE it could melt otherwise. In the case of the 360 it actually may have helped if the balls softened; those cracks would seal up then.
Certainly not all. There are solder alloys that can melt at around ~110C. Totally within the reach of overheating computer chips. Microsoft seems to have used extremely poor quality solder in conjunction with very poor cooling as well. Which explains why a re-flow would sometimes not even last a couple of days , there is no way cracks that develop that slowly would be the cause of that.
Posted on Reply
#10
R-T-B
eidairaman1 said:
My point being is after Ryzen came about Intel started pushing "5.0GHz" also older architectures don't typically clock better...
Kaby Lake precedes Ryzen, no?
FR@NK said:
Regardless of whats between the silicon and heatspreader, the 8700K will be a great processor even at stock speeds.
Most processors now are, AMD included. It's a good time for us enthusiasts.
Posted on Reply
#11
OSdevr
Vya Domus said:
There are solder alloys that can melt at around 100C. Totally within the reach of overheating computer chips. Microsoft seems to have used extremely poor quality solder in conjunction with very poor cooling as well. Which explains why a re-flow would sometimes not even last a couple of days , there is no way cracks that develop that slowly would be the cause of that.
There are solder alloys that melt even lower than that but they're not used for electronics. As for the reflow it very much depends on how it is done (an oven doesn't cut it). You're actually supposed to reball a BGA for proper reflow.
Posted on Reply
#12
Vya Domus
Low solder is definitely used for electronics. For mounting some BGA chips such alloys are in fact used.

You are supposed to use the right tool for the right job. Clearly that didn't happen in 360's case , MS tried to cut cost using poor materials and poor designs , it bit them back hard.
Posted on Reply
#13
theoneandonlymrk
danbert2000 said:
Here, I think you missed this article I posted and we're all discussing. Maybe you want to actually read it this time. Why are you even bringing up electrical conductivity... The whole point is that cracking solder between the heatspreader and the processor will lead to hotspots on the processor and could kill it. I'd like to see you reflow the solder on a processor after the solder has begun to degrade.

http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/
Peice of piss with the right gear and no im busy your still wrong , vapour isn't arsed about gaps i assure you it gets out ,tim dries , it looses efficiency and solder is significantly longer lasting.
Even despite the silicone glue seal it'll get out physics says so.
Posted on Reply
#14
evernessince
danbert2000 said:
Yes I know the Xbox did not fail due to soldered heatsink failure. It did fail due to cracking solder. Which everyone else is saying isn't a problem. Clearly it is. Solder can crack anywhere due to heat/cool cycles, including between a $2000 server CPU and its head spreader.

Intel did the math and figured they would save warranty money and have a more reliable product if it didn't have the risk of cracking solder at the major thermal interface.

You guys really suck at reading comprehension by the way, I never said the Xbox failed due to solder in the heatspreader failing. I pointed to it as one of the most famous examples of solder failure messing up a product's reliability. Now put on your synthesis hats and apply that experience, of solder failing, to a different application of solder. I know you can.
You do realize that mobile parts have been soldered forever. Every component on the PCB is soldered. You are sitting here telling us that Intel is right and the entirety of the rest of the industry is wrong. I have a 1960's amp sitting right next to me that was hand soldered. Only in rare cases does solder fail. TIM on the other hand is KNOWN to dry out after only a handful of years

https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/311177-does-thermal-paste-dry-out/
https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=518026
http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-3277572/thermal-paste-dries.html

In addition, TIM is much more susceptible to air pockets, either during application or over time. Last, the more heat applied to TIM the quicker it dries. The same applies to solder but solder has an order of magnitude greater durability. Even mined on video cards take at least 5 years for whitening to start occurring. The thermal paste on the other hand has to be replaced every 2 months on a 24/7 card. You can stop bullshitting everyone, Intel isn't some magic child that knows something about TIM no one else does.
Posted on Reply
#16
OSdevr
Vya Domus said:
Low solder is definitely used for electronics. For mounting some BGA chips such alloys are in fact used.

You are supposed to use the right tool for the right job. Clearly that didn't happen in 360's case , MS tried to cut cost using poor materials and poor designs , it bit them back hard.
I'll believe you if you have an example. Low melting point solders are generally more expensive than higher melting point solders especially if they are lead free (required for RoHS compliance) and generally do contain Indium. ChipQuick for example is a low melting point 'solder' generally used to remove SMD components from a board and it costs several times what normal solder does.
Posted on Reply
#17
dicktracy
Sold my 1700. Here comes the 8700k!
Posted on Reply
#18
Vya Domus
OSdevr said:
I'll believe you if you have an example. Low melting point solders are generally more expensive than higher melting point solders especially if they are lead free (required for RoHS compliance) and generally do contain Indium. ChipQuick for example is a low melting point 'solder' generally used to remove SMD components from a board and it costs several times what normal solder does.
And I'm curious what explanation you have for what happened with the 360 ? They used top quality high melting point solder , no ?
Posted on Reply
#19
MxPhenom 216
Corsair Fanboy
TIM really isnt the issue. The black glue shit they use that once it gets hot, it expands a bit and then makes it so that there isn't as good of contact between the die and the IHS.
Posted on Reply
#20
EarthDog
Thats a new one... :)

Height of the ihs off the die is an issue due to that glue, but i dont recall hearing about it expanding.. just that they are too high/helps when its removed as its slightly close to the die.
Posted on Reply
#21
OSdevr
Vya Domus said:
And I'm curious what explanation you have for what happened with the 360 ? They used top quality high melting point solder , no ?
High melting point solder can still be low quality :).
Posted on Reply
#22
phanbuey
EarthDog said:
Thats a new one... :)

Height of the ihs off the die is an issue due to that glue, but i dont recall hearing about ot expanding.. just that they are too high.
I think that intel are actually lizard people... and that thier plan is to divide and conquer by giving us fast but thermally inferior processors.
Posted on Reply
#23
EarthDog
Probably dating myself bere but... "V"

Posted on Reply
#24
Vya Domus
OSdevr said:
High melting point solder can still be low quality :).
And what happened with this low quality solder ? How did the solder points fail ? Did they crack out of no where ? Come on man , don't keep me on edge.
Posted on Reply
#25
Steevo
danbert2000 said:
So you either read the article and disagree with it but don't have the intelligence to give a reason, or you didn't read the article and just wanted to be pedantic for what turned out to be your mistake in reading comprehension. Gotcha. I guess I'm the best kind of troll, the one that discusses the actual post and gives evidence as to why Intel may not use solder even if it has better thermal performance.
So all the solder used in high temp (not the paltry less than 220F chips interface) that works fine should crack out, right?

Except it doesn't. The TIM vs Solder is a choice in cost, and in performance limiting. Intel can tell if a chip has been overclocked and deem it unwarrantiable if they use TIM as the thermal conductivity limits maximum clocks. Solder would allow users to clock higher with more voltage easier and damage chips and they wouldn't be able to tell.

Solder is the superior choice, which is why it's used on every other part of the board including VRMs and FETs.

Lastly, suggesting that Intel uses Solder for longevity and AMD would have issues is so uninformed that it doesn't even warrant a response beyond this, testing small BGA at 100C shows modern solders don't start to fail until 16000 heat cycles, and that would be the mode of failure for Intel or AMD as they require that solder between the silicon die and substrate, regardless of thermal interface material, except if kept cooler, meaning a cooler running chip will last longer than the BGA will. All else being equal, solder is superior.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www4.uic.com/wcms/Images.nsf/c06db59d70a043cc85256809004d8cbe/ef1e83fa37d97cf685256c7200709b8f/%24FILE/IPCNewOrleans.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjErbv177nWAhWIllQKHcvkAbsQFgg0MAI&usg=AFQjCNE4pEFh03aXZ_d71bj6wjaGKMH0fg
Posted on Reply
Add your own comment