Wednesday, November 11th 2020

Cooler Master Introduces MasterLiquid ML360 Sub-Zero TEC AIO

Cooler Master has recently announced the MasterLiquid ML360 Sub-Zero AIO with Intel Cryo Cooling Technology. This AIO features the same Intel Thermoelectric Cooler (TEC) found in the EK QuantumX Delta water block to achieve sub-ambient temperatures. The ML360 Sub-Zero features a 52.52 mm TEC unit and Intel software to enable maximum cooling. The AIO features a 360 mm radiator equipped with three SF120R fans and a second-generation pump. The unit is only compatible with 10th and 11th generation Intel processors due to the deep software integration. The MasterLiquid ML360 Sub-Zero will be available to purchase from the end of November for 349.99 Euro.
Announcement Video

Source: Cooler Master
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42 Comments on Cooler Master Introduces MasterLiquid ML360 Sub-Zero TEC AIO

#1
lynx29
and a ryzen 5900x on air will still beat it :D
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#2
Khonjel
Just saw the LTT video few minutes ago. While I cringe at the desperation, I can't deny that this desperation is creating some awesome shit. LTT video says that the cooler is smart? The cooler will take temp reads from the CPU and adjust itself to not condensate. I hope der8auer or Steve from GN can try to hack it on AMD 5000 series.

Anyways exciting stuff.
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#3
randomUser
Tha fact that Intel needed to colaborate with cooler master to achieve "new performance heights" means that we will be stuck with 14m, even longer and it also means that intel will push high voltages into cpus to get as much as possible. And that also means cpu power 300W+? :D Cooler alone will consume 50-100W?
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#4
wolar
I find it funny that not only did the turntable but atleast amd took some time to redo their architecture while intel is continuing on this madness path with insane temps/power. Although i guess we would advance in both ways sooner or later so w/e
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#5
ViperXTR
Will Intel force this cooler on their 11th Gen CPU release reviews?
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#6
mak1skav
randomUser
Tha fact that Intel needed to colaborate with cooler master to achieve "new performance heights" means that we will be stuck with 14m, even longer and it also means that intel will push high voltages into cpus to get as much as possible. And that also means cpu power 300W+? :D Cooler alone will consume 50-100W?
50-100W for the cooler sounds quite low I would guess. The one from EKWB is rated at 200W I think.
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#7
bogami
Nice.:clap: One TAC such unit nay would have a 60 A maximum . The main problem will not only be the power supply, but the condensation! Good protection against moisture is essential with prolonged use .:)
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#8
Kohl Baas
At least we can utilize our kW+ PSUs since SLI/CF is dead anyway... :laugh:
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#9
evernessince
I hope Intel paid them enough to cover the low sales. I don't really see the point in buying a cooler that forces me to use it with a single CPU manufacturer.
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#10
aktpu
randomUser
Tha fact that Intel needed to colaborate with cooler master to achieve "new performance heights" means that we will be stuck with 14m, even longer and it also means that intel will push high voltages into cpus to get as much as possible. And that also means cpu power 300W+? :D Cooler alone will consume 50-100W?
EK has a standalone block, if that's more your jam
Posted on Reply
#11
nguyen

There are ambient tempeature and dew point sensors that control the TEC temperature to stay above dew point, eliminating potential catastrophe from condensation. Though this only work well in dry climate where dew point is much lower than ambient temp.
Looking at where I live, temp/dew point 27/22C, yeah this won't work well at all.
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#12
Caring1
evernessince
I hope Intel paid them enough to cover the low sales. I don't really see the point in buying a cooler that forces me to use it with a single CPU manufacturer.
Your not forced or locked in to using it with a single manufacturer or specific Gen of CPU, but the risk of damage is on you if you choose to use it on anything else.
Those radiator hoses look awfully short though.
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#13
Chrispy_
No thanks. TEC basiscally doubles the power consumption of a CPU for 5-7% more performance.

That 250W power draw from Intel is now 480W power draw from Intel + TEC and Intel was already laughably far behind in the performance/Watt category.

More importantly, Linus posted a video yesterday proving that for sustained workloads, the 230W TEC couldn't handle the thermal load, so core temps were running as hot as a $25 air cooler whilst the i9 at 250W overwhelmed the 230W TEC and hit 90C whilst chowing down on 480W. Seriously, 480W and it's a 300MHz overclock....

Posted on Reply
#14
nguyen
Chrispy_
No thanks. TEC basiscally doubles the power consumption of a CPU for 5-7% more performance.

That 250W power draw from Intel is now 480W power draw from Intel + TEC and Intel was already laughably far behind in the performance/Watt category.

More importantly, Linus posted a video yesterday proving that for sustained workloads, the 230W TEC couldn't handle the thermal load, so core temps were running as hot as a $25 air cooler whilst the i9 at 250W overwhelmed the 230W TEC and hit 90C whilst chowing down on 480W. Seriously, 480W and it's a 300MHz overclock....


TEC would be perfect for Ryzen 5000 though, low power consumption and high temp. These 360mm AIO can handle 105W CPU + 160W TEC no problem.
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#15
spnidel
200W cooler to cool a 200W CPU hahahahah
these CPUs from intel truly are their bulldozer moment
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#16
BlackWater
As as standalone product this looks... cool, at best. In reality, this is *extremely* niche and highly impractical. But combined with who and why made it (I'm talking about Intel being behind this, not the actual manufacturers), makes me even more scared for the future of the CPU market - while I'm extremely happy that I got to see AMD back in the game after so long, I don't want them to end up in the same position Intel has been for the last decade.
If anyone is naive enough to think AMD is the 'good guy' and they will keep churning out generation after generation with massive improvements, you are sorely mistaken. AMD is a business, not your friend, or a charity.
If Intel totally falls off and no longer provides competition, AMD will end up dominating the performance/enthusiast/workstation market and they will eventually start behaving just like Intel of the last decade - small improvements, reusing technology until they milk it dead and dry, while still increasing costs to the consumer. Market monopolies are an absolute horror show for any consumer in any segment. I really hope we don't end up with just AMD and Intel switching places and arriving the same situation a few years down the line...
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#17
Chrispy_
nguyen
TEC would be perfect for Ryzen 5000 though, low power consumption and high temp. These 360mm AIO can handle 105W CPU + 160W TEC no problem.
Power consumption and temp are linked though. You can't have low consumption and high temp unless the area being cooled is changing.

What you're actually seeing is better placement of the hotspot sensors on the die than we used to have on older chips.

The die area is the same, the power consumption is the same. Laws of physics still apply, as always.
Posted on Reply
#18
nguyen
Chrispy_
Power consumption and temp are linked though. You can't have low consumption and high temp unless the area being cooled is changing.

What you're actually seeing is better placement of the hotspot sensors on the die than we used to have on older chips.

The die area is the same, the power consumption is the same. Laws of physics still apply, as always.
Yeah not really, at stock settings when you are doing lightly threaded workload, Ryzen 2nd and 3rd Gen will use high voltage (>1.4V) to boost single core frequency as high as possible, making core temperature hotter than when you fully load all cores.
for example:
1 core load - 1.4V - 40W power consumption - 80C (windows keep passing the load around to other core and eventually you see every core have max temp of 80C)
8 core load - 1.3V - 90W power consumption - 70C max on all cores.

Of course this changes when you set a fixed voltage/frequency into the BIOS but you lose some single core performance with Ryzen 2nd and 3rd gen.

Now if all you do is gaming, the CPU will try to boost as high as possible, but consume little power, that's why TEC would really help.
GamersNexus did a video where Ryzen 2nd gain around 150-200mhz boost when the load temperature reduce from 75C to 40C.
Posted on Reply
#19
Chrispy_
nguyen
Yeah not really, at stock settings when you are doing lightly threaded workload, Ryzen 2nd and 3rd Gen will use high voltage (>1.4V) to boost single core frequency as high as possible, making core temperature hotter than when you fully load all cores.
for example:
1 core load - 1.4V - 40W power consumption - 80C (windows keep passing the load around to other core and eventually you see every core have max temp of 80C)
8 core load - 1.3V - 90W power consumption - 70C max on all cores.

Of course this changes when you set a fixed voltage/frequency into the BIOS but you lose some single core performance with Ryzen 2nd and 3rd gen.

Now if all you do is gaming, the CPU will try to boost as high as possible, but consume little power, that's why TEC would really help.
GamersNexus did a video where Ryzen 2nd gain around 150-200mhz boost when the load temperature reduce from 75C to 40C.
Oh, right. Peak boost with low thread count, yeah; Power usage is squared for linear voltage increase.

I don't worry about that - Boosting will always increase voltage until it hits the cooling or safe voltage limits. It's why you see 1.45V in Ryzen master all the time even when the "safe" all-core voltage is under 1.4V. XFR or whatever they're calling the algorithm will juggle the load around the cores to avoid any single area getting too hot. When you see 90C CPU temps, that's because the instantaneous hotspot of the peak-boosted core is at the absolute thermal limit and it's likely only running on that specific core for a few seconds. Fire up Ryzen Master and run something like Furmark's CPU Burner and you'll see the juggling of low-thread counts around various cores to spread the heat evenly around the die.

In fact, I think it juggles loads across cores in a CCX faster than Ryzen master can even sample:

Two cores on 3.2 and 3.5 GHz "current speed" but switch to peak and it's 4537MHz on Core 2 (bone-stock 3900X with PBO disabled)

So yeah, for very lightly-threaded workloads where XFR is pushing the thermal limits with insane overvolting on one or two maxed cores it'll help a bit, but all it'll do is triple power consumption until you hit the absolute voltage wall and even 200MHz isn't going to be game-changing. Realistically, you won't see that in multi-threaded modern games, but in CS:GO you'll get 670fps instead of 640fps. Excuse me for not getting overexcited about that on my 165Hz monitor ;)
Posted on Reply
#20
Jism
Khonjel
Just saw the LTT video few minutes ago. While I cringe at the desperation, I can't deny that this desperation is creating some awesome shit. LTT video says that the cooler is smart? The cooler will take temp reads from the CPU and adjust itself to not condensate. I hope der8auer or Steve from GN can try to hack it on AMD 5000 series.

Anyways exciting stuff.
Geezus, talking about biased video's.


No report on load temps, power consumption and the downside of running a TEC onto your current system such as additional power consumption and / or heat. Great that you can peak boost to 5.5 or whatever, but that does'nt bring anything real to the table.

Problem is: CPU's these days are so dense in relation of heat, that a TEC is'nt going to cut it anymore like it did in the past. Its cool for running a bench or OC session; but not for daily / 24/7 use.
Posted on Reply
#21
r.h.p
Khonjel
Just saw the LTT video few minutes ago. While I cringe at the desperation, I can't deny that this desperation is creating some awesome shit. LTT video says that the cooler is smart? The cooler will take temp reads from the CPU and adjust itself to not condensate. I hope der8auer or Steve from GN can try to hack it on AMD 5000 series.

Anyways exciting stuff.
yeah i watched that LTT vid , definitely pushing the tech forward this battle of the Titans , this is the first of the rank .,,,, fuck this type of cooler Could be revolution ?

God damn it Look at his smile this is great :)
Posted on Reply
#22
Chrispy_
Jism
Geezus, talking about biased video's.
Massive "Sponsored by Intel" at the beginning so you basically know to ignore it as an impartial review.
Posted on Reply
#23
Jism
Chrispy_
Massive "Sponsored by Intel" at the beginning so you basically know to ignore it as an impartial review.
Obviously they cant criticize the product for what it is and how TEC is'nt that great these days anymore. It would be the last sponsored video obviously by both CM and Intel. But there's a few reasons why TEC's are'nt used in PC's no more, except for the people who want to go subzero for a bench or OC.

- The power consumption exceeds twice of your CPU
- You have twice the heat to cool
- You need a beefy PSU, we're talking 20A on 12V alone (220W)
- TEC's are very bad in moving heat; this explains the huge rise in temps once loaded
- TEC's are a point of faillure, they could snap and stop working

There's a old forum on www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?94-T-E-C-Cooling where alot of self-build TEC's where done; really amazing chillers and all that, but nobody these days is running with tecs on expensive CPU's these days. And if they where i bet they be paying a shitload on electricity costs.

Appearantly they rely on idle temps and having a higher boost due to the lower temps. But that is just for short bursts, since the CPU and water would heat up, you'd need to have the fans and pump speed at a 100% all the time to get the best of it.

TEC's are used in space, to generate electricity from a half nuclear device > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHW-RTG

Now thats putting a TEC to good use. Lifespan of estimated 40 years.
Posted on Reply
#25
tigger
I'm the only one
Jism
Obviously they cant criticize the product for what it is and how TEC is'nt that great these days anymore. It would be the last sponsored video obviously by both CM and Intel. But there's a few reasons why TEC's are'nt used in PC's no more, except for the people who want to go subzero for a bench or OC.

- The power consumption exceeds twice of your CPU
- You have twice the heat to cool
- You need a beefy PSU, we're talking 20A on 12V alone (220W)
- TEC's are very bad in moving heat; this explains the huge rise in temps once loaded
- TEC's are a point of faillure, they could snap and stop working

There's a old forum on www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?94-T-E-C-Cooling where alot of self-build TEC's where done; really amazing chillers and all that, but nobody these days is running with tecs on expensive CPU's these days. And if they where i bet they be paying a shitload on electricity costs.

Appearantly they rely on idle temps and having a higher boost due to the lower temps. But that is just for short bursts, since the CPU and water would heat up, you'd need to have the fans and pump speed at a 100% all the time to get the best of it.

TEC's are used in space, to generate electricity from a half nuclear device > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHW-RTG

Now thats putting a TEC to good use. Lifespan of estimated 40 years.
He can certainly give a honest opinion of the product, if not it just proves these people are just shills who are paid to advertise the products whether they think they are good or not, which is pointless, and the only winner is the shill who gets free stuff, and the provider, who gets free advertising. We lose because we don't get a honest review of said product. I am afraid if i was in that position i would not last very long, as if i thought it was a turd, i would call it a turd, even if it upset the provider.
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