londisteRocket Lake throttles like crazy when power limit is set to TDP and does not run at all that high of a frequency with the 228W PL2.

PL2 is burst power limit, not long term load power limit. Long term power limit is PL1, so what you say is throttling, likely has everything to do with 125 watt PL1 (for K skus only).

CrackongIt seems you don't understand.
No matter you CPU is made of copper / gold / cobalt , or harry potter magic.
As long as it does not have any physical work done during the process.
All of the energy it "consumes" are turning to heat , 99.99%

You don't have to count how many % of it is made of copper or anything.

When it consumes 228W, it gives 227.99999W of heat.

If you can't get the basics right, rest of it are meaningless.

Actually you don't understand.

You make a true statement, but fail in two regards. The biggest thing is your assumption about how much waste energy it consumes.

There are some references to Cobalt out there you can find. Bottom line though, it is a better conductor at sub 20nm than copper. This is because of the electro migration problem, basically that loss becomes an issue.

Less resistance = less heat which means greater density can be achieved.

Now, it may be that a chip running at 250W still produces the same heat. However, if that chip is getting 30% more work done, that is the win.

The argument that it is going to produce the same heat is sort of like the EPA / HP argument I see about cars these days. Cars are not getting significantly more MPG than they did in the mid to late 80s, that's a fact. However, they get slightly better MPG and have double the power. So yes, they are far far more efficient, we are just using that efficiency to make them go faster, not to save gas.

The same thing is likely to be true of Cobalt.

RandallFlaggActually you don't understand.

You make a true statement, but fail in two regards. The biggest thing is your assumption about how much waste energy it consumes.

There are some references to Cobalt out there you can find. Bottom line though, it is a better conductor at sub 20nm than copper. This is because of the electro migration problem, basically that loss becomes an issue.

Less resistance = less heat which means greater density can be achieved.

Now, it may be that a chip running at 250W still produces the same heat. However, if that chip is getting 30% more work done, that is the win.

The argument that it is going to produce the same heat is sort of like the EPA / HP argument I see about cars these days. Cars are not getting significantly more MPG than they did in the mid to late 80s, that's a fact. However, they get slightly better MPG and have double the power. So yes, they are far far more efficient, we are just using that efficiency to make them go faster, not to save gas.

The same thing is likely to be true of Cobalt.

It is not a "Maybe"
It is a fact.

A chip consuming 250W IS giving 250W of heat
There is no physical work done inside the CPU
ALL energy eventually change into heat inside your magic cobalt CPU.
And cobalt also has 1/4 of thermal conductivity of copper
So the heat produced inside the CPU will be much more "trapped" within.
It is Physics.
You cannot deny Physics.

You pack 250W into a smaller die
The heat density goes sky high
Your magic cobalt won't save you there
These new CPUs will most likely suffer with temperature spikes causing frequency drops.
Just like how Ryzen 3000 series suffered when they implement N7 node for the very first time.

How Intel's gonna use that 250W of energy is another story.
You might HOPE Intel suddenly produces the most efficient CPU on the planet.
But look at Intel's track record.
They DO NOT tune their mainstream CPU towards the efficient side.
But instead,
They pump whatever current they could find.

londisteYes. But when you make "wires" out of a material that is a better conductor, you can get by with running less voltage through it.

Agreed

I think the voltage headroom are most likely to be used to compensate the frequency lost going 14nm to 10nm.

They will suffer the hotspot problem same as Ryzen 3000/5000
Combined with the trash windows scheduler (Already proven by how bad the EOL Lakefield performed)

I don't have high hopes for their first gen 10nm desktop parts.

CrackongThey DO NOT tune their mainstream CPU towards the efficient side.

What does that even mean? There really are not too many ways of "tuning" the CPU towards efficiency.
- When it comes to manufacturing not too sure about what Intel has but other foundries all have power-optimized node variants. These are used mostly for mobile chips and have the caveat that they do not clock as high as the high performance variants that desktop/mainstream CPUs and GPUs are built on. Even if you get a noticeable efficiency boost and it helps with all core loads, the maximum frequency for single-core or a couple-core load will take a hit which puts you in a competitively bad position. For a recent real-life example - with a high-performance node but the same idea - see (early) Ice Lake.
- Other than that all you can play with is voltage and frequency. Unfortunately lower voltage also means lower frequency and competitive situation again dictates you want as high a frequency as possible.

There is a curve for efficiency and the most efficient point is easy to find - just check what big Xeons and EPYCs run at. :)

Edit:
They do not seem to be too far off one another:
Ice Lake Xeon 8358 apparently can run 32 cores at 2.6GHz in 250W TDP (note: tricky because in case of Intel this usually includes AVX-512).
Zen3 EPYC 75F3 does 32 cores at 2.95GHz in 280W TDP.

CrackongThey will suffer the hotspot problem same as Ryzen 3000/5000
Combined with the trash windows scheduler (Already proven by how bad the EOL Lakefield performed)

I don't have high hopes for their first gen 10nm desktop parts.

Yes, hotspot problem is likely. On the other hand, this might prompt Intel to stop allowing/encouraging manufacturers to use indefinite Tau as default :)
Windows and its scheduler has been improved somewhat since Lakefield. Lakefield was as much for the purpose of getting started on the schedulers problem than anything else.
Looking at Tiger Lakes and the new Ice Lake Xeons, 10nm does not seem to be that far behind TSMC's 7nm. You are right, high frequencies may be different but we can hope :)

londisteWhat does that even mean? There really are not too many ways of "tuning" the CPU towards efficiency.
- When it comes to manufacturing not too sure about what Intel has but other foundries all have power-optimized node variants but these are used mostly for mobile chips and have the caveat that they do not clock as high as the high performance variants that desktop/mainstream CPUs and GPUs are built on. Even if you get a noticeable efficiency boost and it helps with all core loads, the maximum frequency for single-core or a couple-core load will take a hit which puts you in a competitively bad position. For a recent real-life example, see (early) Ice Lake.
- Other than that all you can play with is voltage and frequency. Unfortunately lower voltage also means lower frequency and competitive situation again dictates you want as high a frequency as possible.

There is a curve for efficiency and the most efficient point is easy to find - just check what big Xeons and EPYCs run at. :)

By tune I mean something like the power table for boosting.
Intel really like short bursts (with 2 x TDP power) which throws the efficiency out of the window
Then deep dive the frequency to compensate for the "debt" of power / heat output
This behavior is really obvious in the mobile CPU segment.

Hey Xeons / EPYCs are going 270W too..

CrackongIntel really like short bursts (with 2 x TDP power) which throws the efficiency out of the window

Not only Intel. 5800X and its hotspot problems are the same thing. 4+GHz Ryzens on TSMC's 7nm are quite inefficient.
Not to the same degree as unlimited Intel CPUs but it is still pumping 140W into 8 cores for ~4GHz. Boost clocks need quite a lot more than that.

Rocket Lake also made significant leaps in Cinebench but ended up bringing 0% improvement in games, this means nothing. Cinebench was useful when generational improvements were across the board and not only in cherrypicked situations, now having a big gain in one of the tests doesn't mean that the CPU is faster overall.

I would really love for those 810 ST points to be real because this would mean Alder Lake is 50% faster than Comet Lake, as it was supposed to be, but this will not translate to games.

Hmm, I remember a time, not all that long ago, when Cinebench scores, especially multi-core ones were the end all, be all of measuring cpu performance, at least according to one fan base... :D

HenrySomeoneHmm, I remember a time, not all that long ago, when Cinebench scores, especially multi-core ones were the end all, be all of measuring cpu performance, at least according to one fan base... :D

Yep Intel fan base! When intel Coerced cinebench to make AMD CPU's lose in there tests or did everyone forget about that?............

ThrashZoneHi,
8 cores 16 threads with an "additional 8 cores low quality or not" so seems like we're seeing a 16 core 16 thread chip so multi would be higher if all were working on that r20 render.

You seem to forget that the whole point of 8 little cores are for low power operation and very low performance tasks ! I would think that they do nothing while under heavy performance and when back to light loads ie web browsing etc the little cores start up again!
That's what all the stuff I have read suggests!
I know its a new design but I still can't see how it can be twice as fast as rocket lake in multicore when it is only 25% or so faster in single threaded performance. It just doesn't add up which brings me back to some kind of intel trickery is at play here!
But they will be out in the next 6 months so we will get our answer soon enough!

RichardsIf it just stock and no oc.. amd will be massacred intel is not playing.. 8+8 cores destroying 16 big cores

Yeah, yeah, sure... :D

TumbleGeorge641+15%(from new cache)=737 vs 810...AMD lost in single so sure with more of 10%. Only from ecological point maybe red will be more green than blue :D

In Cinebench. Just saying: Rocket Lake also beat Zen3 in pre-released tests... :)

Gruffalo.SoldierLol at all the massive watt posts. Who fucking cares. If you have the cash to buy one, and the required DDR5 plus a new high end board, you aren't going to be cooling it with a stock cooler or using a 500watt psu. I personally don't give a hoot about power usage any more, it's performance that matters.

You don't buy a ferrari and whine cos it only does 8mpg

Yeah I can't remember blue-green fans laughing at Bulldozer/earlier AMD GPU power consumptions.. :)

B-RealYeah I can't remember blue-green fans laughing at Bulldozer/earlier AMD GPU power consumptions.. :)

As they should have. Absolute power draw numbers do not matter, power to performance does, at least for products that have direct competition and something to compare to, otherwise even this does not. If you need 275W to do what competitor does at 145W and you don't have any features on top of that then you have no reason to exist, let alone trying to sell it as a product.

B-RealYeah, yeah, sure... :D


In Cinebench. Just saying: Rocket Lake also beat Zen3 in pre-released tests... :)


Yeah I can't remember blue-green fans laughing at Bulldozer/earlier AMD GPU power consumptions.. :)

Call me when amd break 5.3ghz on all cores.. that tsmc 7nm node is not good for high frequency

GURU7OF9You seem to forget that the whole point of 8 little cores are for low power operation and very low performance tasks ! I would think that they do nothing while under heavy performance and when back to light loads ie web browsing etc the little cores start up again!
That's what all the stuff I have read suggests!
I know its a new design but I still can't see how it can be twice as fast as rocket lake in multicore when it is only 25% or so faster in single threaded performance. It just doesn't add up which brings me back to some kind of intel trickery is at play here!
But they will be out in the next 6 months so we will get our answer soon enough!

Hi,
But mother board manufactures especially asus "but not exclusively" usually give oc'ers options to use all resources and hopefully that includes all available cores even the small ones lol
Also most oc'er disable all background stuff anyway so these 8 small cores wouldn't be doing anything anyway or bare minimum on 1 or 2 small ones.
So I haven't forgotten anything lol

RichardsCall me when amd break 5.3ghz on all cores.. that tsmc 7nm node is not good for high frequency

They can but they do not want to, the 5950x has a TDP 125 Watt for 2 reasons, one is that at 7nm there is not enough space inside to keep the temperatures low, unless you use an exotic cooler system that will cost you more, the second reason is the efficiency,efficiency and Intel in the last 2 years do not go together yes the performance is top but at the cost of energy is very high all this may not affect the average user but it is very bad for the servers, see the latest financial results of 2020/21 and you will understand why the data center sector is constantly in decline.Also the renewed ryzen series will have from what the rumors say TDP at 170 watts, there we will see an increase in the processor frequencies but how much is unknown.
I apologize for my English.

RichardsCall me when amd break 5.3ghz on all cores.. that tsmc 7nm node is not good for high frequency

I did not break the 5.3 but I have run up a lot of electricity and I also changed the Corsair Hydro Series H100i Pro with an Arctic Freezer 240 because the temperatures reached the ceiling, so I have higher performance but at a higher cost

It better be faster lmao. That's what I expect. Not the Rocket Lake flop, which my 5900X still destroys.

Anyway, that 3D V-Cache spells doom. Zen 4 is coming. I feel like Alder Lake won't be able to show off for long. ;)

All the fanboys in this thread as usual, including HenrySomeone of course. I don't understand why y'all only praise one company as if they care about you. For me, Intel being competitive again is great because in like 5 years when I make a new rig, I'll have more options and a huge performance boost over my current rig. I don't have to time to spend online arguing with people over which company's boots to lick. Have fun with the fanboyism now lol.

EmilyAnyway, that 3D V-Cache spells doom. Zen 4 is coming. I feel like Alder Lake won't be able to show off for long. ;)

3D V-Cache allegedly brings on about 15% more performance.
Alder Lake is supposed to come out late of 2021. Zen4 should be coming late 2022 which Intel should be countering with Meteor Lake at the same time frame.

Wonder when they're gonna run out of Lake names and resort to this.

EmilyWonder when they're gonna run out of Lake names and resort to this.

I don't think they will run out of lake names. There are 1,681 lakes in the USA.

64KI don't think they will run out of lake names. There are 1,681 lakes in the USA.

They also use location names from all over the World. I can't wait for CPU cores to be named Canadian London (lol it's a real location, seemingly every country has a London).

The red spiritThey also use location names from all over the World. I can't wait for CPU cores to be named Canadian London (lol it's a real location, seemingly every country has a London).

Wonder how many are close to the real Londons age?

Gruffalo.SoldierWonder how many are close to the real Londons age?

Likely none, British London has been known to exist since AD 47. Not only that's old, but also it might have existed a lot earlier than that, it's just that Romans settled there since then. And I'm pretty sure that Londons are the result of British colonialism, which was in 17th century, before that, I doubt that many other countries even knew what London or even Brits were.

My country has a very odd London, it actually sounds like fucked up Victoria 2 map. It's a small garden community (a small village like land with small territories for owning gardens, and small houses in eldership of Switzerland, which is in Jonava municipality. It only has 14 citizens nowadays. At its peak, it had 19 citizens and at its lowest point it only had 3 citizens. My city region is quite weird one. It also has Switzerland village. In my city I once found one place, where all street were named after Scandinavian countries for seemingly no reason at all. I know that one street is named French street, also for unknown reasons.

Release is 6 odd months away...?

When retail silicon is reviewed then get excited or not.

mb194dcRelease is 6 odd months away...?

Nothing official but rumors say September 2021 announcement with availability later, perhaps even as late as December 2021.

ZoneDymoits not about the bills to pay, its about the achievement not being so great when it consumes twice the power to reach that position.

Fanboys need to downplay intel. If intel eat less power oh they dont have high ipc
If they have high ipc and low power they re expensive..dont worry users who dont care about price, science labs and wallstreet will pay for that chips they dont need save money.
A high end lab will never use amd if they have the money due to avx