Tuesday, July 25th 2017

AMD to Build "Zen 2" and "Zen 3" Processors on 7 nm Process: CTO

AMD is in no mood to stick to the 14 nm process for as long as Intel has (building four performance x86 CPU micro-architectures on it). In an interview with EE Times, AMD CTO Mark Papermaster confirmed that the company's "Zen 2" and "Zen 3" CPU micro-architectures will be built on the next-generation 7 nm silicon fab process. Transition to the 7 nm process is not as straightforward as optically shrinking your chip designs and shipping them over to your foundry. Apparently it requires big technical changes for the chip design teams, which AMD feels are better executed while it's still riding on the success of its current "Zen" architecture.

"We had to literally double our efforts across foundry and design teams…It's the toughest lift I've seen in a number of generations," said Papermaster. He added that the 7 nm node requires new "CAD tools and [changes in] the way you architect the device [and] how you connect transistors-the implementation and tools change [as well as] the IT support you need to get through it." Papermaster predicts that 7 nm will be a "long node like 28 nm" in that chip designers will have to build several refinements to their designs on the node before the newer 4 nm node could be heralded. He urged semiconductor foundry companies to introduce EUV (extreme ultra-violet lithography), a technique used to etch transistors and circuits at the infinitesimally small 7 nm node, as soon as possible, so AMD could have more options at manufacturing its next generation processors.
Source: EE Times
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32 Comments on AMD to Build "Zen 2" and "Zen 3" Processors on 7 nm Process: CTO

#1
FR@NK
So it will be 2020 until we see Zen 2....
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#2
xkm1948
So next year it will be Zen+ ?
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#3
Dave65
FR@NK said:
So it will be 2020 until we see Zen 2....
I thought it was spring of 18?
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#4
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Nevermind Zen, this spells bad news for RTG. Navi will most likely be on 14nm too so a new architecture likely isn't happening until 2020 too.
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#5
trparky
I thought Zen 2 was to be released next year.
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#6
AlB80
AMD is in no mood to stick to the 14 nm process for as long as AMD has 32-28nm (building five x86 CPU micro-architectures on it: K10 (LLano), Bulldozer, Piledriver, Steamroller, Excavator or 5.5 years).
Posted on Reply
#7
Frick
Fishfaced Nincompoop
Sounds very optimistic, depending on whether Zen2 is the one they said would come in 2018 or not.

I wonder how it'll affect the APUs.
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#8
FrustratedGarrett
Ryzen is competitive but it's still a 2nd tier CPU. Clock to clock, Ryzen is generally 10% to 15% slower than Kaby Lake (+20% in games) and it doesn't clock as well as Kaby Lake. AMD's CPU division is doing fine ATM but their graphics division is where they're struggling the most.

Mark my words, the next thing the cheap sleazy lunatics who run AMD are going to do is to outsource their whole CPU division to China or India. That nobody, Raja Kadouri, has already moved most of their graphics division out of Canada. They think everything is interchangeable. The original team that designed GCN, headed by Phil Rogers and Matt Skinner both of whom left the company back in 2015, has been entirely laid off.
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#9
cryohellinc
FrustratedGarrett said:
Ryzen is competitive but it's still a 2nd tier CPU. Clock to clock, Ryzen is generally 10% to 15% slower than Kaby Lake (+20% in games) and it doesn't clock as well as Kaby Lake. AMD's CPU division is doing fine ATM but their graphics division is where they're struggling the most.

Mark my words, the next thing the cheap sleazy lunatics who run AMD are going to do is to outsource their whole CPU division to China or India. That nobody, Raja Kadouri, has already moved most of their graphics division out of Canada. They think everything is interchangeable. The original team that designed GCN, headed by Phil Rogers and Matt Skinner both of whom left the company back in 2015, has been entirely laid off.
Nice attempt at twisting facts. In fact Ryzen, even 1700 has better PPC compared even to 7700k and this is in a new platform, give it a year and it will scale even further.

Also your overall comment smells of saltyness, hence biased.
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#10
suraswami
AlB80 said:
AMD is in no mood to stick to the 14 nm process for as long as AMD has 32-28nm (building five x86 CPU micro-architectures on it: K10 (LLano), Bulldozer, Piledriver, Steamroller, Excavator or 5.5 years).
FrustratedGarrett said:
Ryzen is competitive but it's still a 2nd tier CPU. Clock to clock, Ryzen is generally 10% to 15% slower than Kaby Lake (+20% in games) and it doesn't clock as well as Kaby Lake. AMD's CPU division is doing fine ATM but their graphics division is where they're struggling the most.

Mark my words, the next thing the cheap sleazy lunatics who run AMD are going to do is to outsource their whole CPU division to China or India. That nobody, Raja Kadouri, has already moved most of their graphics division out of Canada. They think everything is interchangeable. The original team that designed GCN, headed by Phil Rogers and Matt Skinner both of whom left the company back in 2015, has been entirely laid off.
Thanks for stopping by!!
Posted on Reply
#11
FrustratedGarrett
cryohellinc said:
Nice attempt at twisting facts. In fact Ryzen, even 1700 has better PPC compared even to 7700k and this is a new platform, give it a year and it will scale even further.

Also, your overall comment smells of saltiness, hence biased.
You sound like a simple minded AMD fanboy. Ever heard of #NotAnArgument?
Posted on Reply
#12
jigar2speed
FrustratedGarrett said:
You sound like a simple minded AMD fanboy. Ever heard of #NotAnArgument?
Meanwhile when we go through all your recent post, all of them are on only on AMD articles and no points for guessing, you have been calling doom for AMD since your first post.

So my question to you, who is acting here like a fanboy from other pond ?
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#13
Hugh Mungus
FordGT90Concept said:
Nevermind Zen, this spells bad news for RTG. Navi will most likely be on 14nm too so a new architecture likely isn't happening until 2020 too.
Navi could still be 7nm, or well-optimized 14nm, which vega might be, but untill 2-3 momths after launch we have no idea and it will be at least a year before we really see what vega is capable of. Rx vwga should hopefully be at least a 1080 now and a 1080+ later, making it more of an investment. The fury x is also doing a lot better now, but now that AMD has way more support, it shouldn't take quite as long to see what rx vega is capable of.

Also it's likely zen2 is the next step somewhere in 2018 and a possible zen+ could replace the fx lineup, at least on the mobile front.
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#14
cryohellinc
FrustratedGarrett said:
You sound like a simple minded AMD fanboy. Ever heard of #NotAnArgument?
Yeah my rig clearly makes me an AMD fanboy.

Try to twist facts harder, liar. Get out of here.
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#15
the54thvoid
cryohellinc said:
Nice attempt at twisting facts. In fact Ryzen, even 1700 has better PPC compared even to 7700k and this is in a new platform, give it a year and it will scale even further.

Also your overall comment smells of saltyness, hence biased.
I don't believe I have seen any reliable independent info that shows this (Ryzen PPC beating 7700).
Regardless, Intel's performance is better because the clock speeds are generally higher (though comparing comparable core counts versus clocks is less straightforward).
The multi core chips from Intel are OC'ing higher than Ryzen so the difference shows there. I don't regret buying Ryzen but with hindsight, I would have bought the 7820X.

My hope is the Zen refresh or upgrade will appear and it's socket compatibility with X370 is good. I could happily stick with Zen with that.
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#16
cryohellinc
the54thvoid said:
I don't believe I have seen any reliable independent info that shows this (Ryzen PPC beating 7700).
Regardless, Intel's performance is better because the clock speeds are generally higher (though comparing comparable core counts versus clocks is less straightforward).
The multi core chips from Intel are OC'ing higher than Ryzen so the difference shows there. I don't regret buying Ryzen but with hindsight, I would have bought the 7820X.

My hope is the Zen refresh or upgrade will appear and it's socket compatibility with X370 is good. I could happily stick with Zen with that.
There are several benchmarks floating around which were made with most recent Bios for Ryzen boards on top of 3200mhz ddr4.

I've recently built Ryzen 1800x @4.0ghz for work, and I have to say its amazing for its price. Also thinking of moving now to a Ryzen build for my home PC, however i'm not sure whether to wait for as you said - Zen refresh / upgrade, or just go for 1700 now.

As I understand it, AMD plans to support AM4 socket for quite some time, hence next release should also support it. Or only next 14nm will support it, not the eventually upcoming 7nm Zen?
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#17
silentbogo
Frick said:
I wonder how it'll affect the APUs.
I'm now questioning whether we will get any APUs and laptops at all. It's worse than Vega in terms of waiting frustration.
Apparently even Bristol Ridge is some sort of low-volume HP exclusive, and totally impossible to find...
Raven Ridge is not even in news anymore, and apparently moved the release date to Q4'17-Q1'18 or maybe later.
Posted on Reply
#18
uuuaaaaaa
the54thvoid said:
I don't believe I have seen any reliable independent info that shows this (Ryzen PPC beating 7700).
Regardless, Intel's performance is better because the clock speeds are generally higher (though comparing comparable core counts versus clocks is less straightforward).
The multi core chips from Intel are OC'ing higher than Ryzen so the difference shows there. I don't regret buying Ryzen but with hindsight, I would have bought the 7820X.

My hope is the Zen refresh or upgrade will appear and it's socket compatibility with X370 is good. I could happily stick with Zen with that.
We already know that ryzen does really well in productivity, and apparently it does very well in gaming now that some of the quirks are ironed out:

This should give an indication.
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#19
Xajel
FR@NK said:
So it will be 2020 until we see Zen 2....
GloFo said 7nm will start in 2H18, later in 2019 they will move to EUV 7nm which should bring costs down and also design complications.

I'm just wondering if EUV 7nm will actually bring any performance/efficiency improvement over the original 7nm.
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#20
_JP_
Is that photo supposed to be romantic/cute?
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#21
blobster21
_JP_ said:
Is that photo supposed to be romantic/cute?
Both are Scorpion's and Sub-zero brothers.
Posted on Reply
#22
Frick
Fishfaced Nincompoop
silentbogo said:
I'm now questioning whether we will get any APUs and laptops at all. It's worse than Vega in terms of waiting frustration.
Apparently even Bristol Ridge is some sort of low-volume HP exclusive, and totally impossible to find...
Raven Ridge is not even in news anymore, and apparently moved the release date to Q4'17-Q1'18 or maybe later.
The A12-9800 tray is listed in Sweden in some stores of ill repute, but laptops with Bristol Ridge is not that uncommon. In fact there are a lot of AMD laptops about at various prices from various OEMs. Desktop parts seems to be predominantly HP though. Not that I looked too hard, I have zero understanding of the APU naming scheme. The Pro A10 9730B seems to have identical specs as the A12 9730P apart from the Pro A10 have Power Tune and True Audio and the A12 does not, but I have no idea what that means. It's maddening shopping for AMD APUs as you can't find anything out and no one seems even remotely interested in reviewing the damn things anyway.

EDIT: Digressions aside, yes I too am getting slightly worried about them APUs. :(
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#23
TheGuruStud
FR@NK said:
So it will be 2020 until we see Zen 2....
It's always been slated for 2019. Risk production begins middle of next year.
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#24
las
I expect 14nm+ Ryzen next year, and 7nm in 2019.

GloFo not ready to do 7nm.
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#25
Boosnie
I really don't see how EUV will make costs go down when a EUV litograph costs 100M upfront, consumes something like 100 times the power a regular UV litography machine and sensitive parts exposed to plasma have a lifecycle of a few months.
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