Friday, August 4th 2017

AMD RX Vega Mining Performance Reportedly Doubled With Driver Updates

Disclaimer: take this post with a bucket of salt. However, the information here, if true, could heavily impact AMD's RX Vega cards' stock at launch and in the subsequent days, so, we're sharing this so our readers can decide on whether they want to pull the trigger for a Vega card at launch, as soon as possible, or risk what would seem like the equivalent of a mining Black Friday crowd gobbling up AMD's RX Vega models' stock. Remember that AMD has already justified delays for increased stock so as to limit the impact of miners on the available supply.

The information has been put out by two different sources already. The first source we encountered (and which has been covered by some media outlets solo) has been one post from one of OC UK's staff, Gibbo, who in a forum post, said "Seems the hash rate on VEGA is 70-100 per card, which is insanely good. Trying to devise some kind of plan so gamers can get them at MSRP without the miners wiping all the stock out within 5 minutes of product going live."
The fact that a staffer from OC UK is actually looking for ways to prevent miners from wiping the stock speaks more to the credence of the information than the "70-100 hash rate" claim. Apparently, this information was conveyed to Gibbo from an AMD AIB partner, who remains unknown at time of writing. This information has already been sort of confirmed by a second source, coming out of Videocardz's Why Cry. In a post, the editor reported how he already had come in possession of similar information through his sources, who put the hash rate of RX Vega close to double that of the Frontier Edition's original hash rate, which was ~30 MH/s in Ethereum mining. This means the hash rate could be ~60 mark, which is still close to OC UK's Gibbo's reference to a "70-100" hash rate. This increase in hash rate was apparently indirectly enabled by updated driver features for the RX Vega cards. Apparently, these were included in the drivers to improve features and gaming performance - which also indirectly resulted in increased mining capabilities.

We had already covered in our Vega Architecture Technical Overview article that AMD's Vega NGCU computation capabilities were bolstered through added support for over 40 new ISA instructions, which result in increased IPC over Polaris - and which were also mentioned by VSG at the time as being "very relevant for GPU mining."
Adding to this story is the fact that recent optimizations from a Reddit user to a Monero mining program and an underclock to 1.3 GHz have brought the Frontier Edition's mining hashrates to around 1.16 kH/s - 34% faster than a GeForce GTX 1080 Ti (around 0.76 kH/s according to Nicehash), and 43% faster than a single Radeon RX 580 8 GB. This means that the $999 Frontier Edition currently stands at double the mining performance of the GTX 1080 on Monero - and the gaming RX Vega, with its $499 price-tag, should follow suit. And these are optimizations achieved by a single user, for a cryptocurrency that is admittedly not as popular as Ethereum or others. But increasing levels of performance in some mining algorithms really does leave the door open for exploration of improved speeds on others, and you can rest assured that miners will, at the very least, attempt to achieve these optimizations in other cryptocurrencies.
All in all, if true, these reports lend credence to AMD's take on the RX Vega delays for stock build-up. And the situation seems to be less straightforward than one might hope when it comes to disabling these instructions, or only enabling them at a latter date, after gamers had already had some time to purchase their desired cards. Because these driver-level updates were apparently done with the intent to bolster gaming performance, I believe it's safe to assume AMD can't easily neuter the mining improvements without putting the increased gaming performance at risk as well. Let's see how this pans out, but consider yourselves at least warned - the RX Vega may see much reduced stock and increased pricing throughout if this scenario pans out. in the meantime, those Radeon Packs with both their shortcomings and opportunities are looking like an increasingly interesting way to get ahold of one of AMD's latest... Sources: OCUK's Gibbo, Videocardz, NAG, Dirtbagdh @ Reddit
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216 Comments on AMD RX Vega Mining Performance Reportedly Doubled With Driver Updates

#101
efikkan
"nemesis.ie said:
The original post, which I commented on only stated 40k profit/year. The assumption would be that includes the price/need to add cards, switching coins etc. i.e. earning 40k/year from mining versus a proper job - or even as an extra in one's spare time.

THAT is what I consider a gold mine ... free money for very little work. Actually that would be BETTER than a gold mine as real mining is pretty hard on one's body. ;)
You still don't get it, so I'll have to teach you some elementary economics. The profits are high in the beginning, but they keep dropping as coins are harder to find and more people compete in the mining game. For a short time the price of the currency will keep up with the increasing cost, but it will eventually always flattens out and eventually drops as people realize the price is inflated.

In economics this is called a "bubble", and it doesn't matter what the speculation object is, the phenomenon is exactly the same whether it's a national currency, bitcoin, gold, oil, stock trade, obligations, food, etc. To begin understanding this, I encourage you to read about the Dutch Tulip mania of 1637, once you grasp this you'll see it's the same thing happening in every economic bubble. Whenever there is a bubble, the ones making the real profits are the ones who invested before the rapid price increase. The ones joining in the middle of the mania can get some return on investment, but the ones near the end will always be the ones taking the full hit.


Each bubble is driven by how people act during a mania. Some call it The greater fool theory; somebody invests more than an object's real value assuming there will be a greater fool in the future willing to pay a higher premium. This growth never keeps up in the long run, if you understand math you'll see why. So when some of you are making some money on the current cryptocurrency, even though it looks okay for the moment, I can tell you it's not going to last.
Posted on Reply
#102
cdawall
where the hell are my stars
"efikkan said:
You still don't get it, so I'll have to teach you some elementary economics. The profits are high in the beginning, but they keep dropping as coins are harder to find and more people compete in the mining game. For a short time the price of the currency will keep up with the increasing cost, but it will eventually always flattens out and eventually drops as people realize the price is inflated.

In economics this is called a "bubble", and it doesn't matter what the speculation object is, the phenomenon is exactly the same whether it's a national currency, bitcoin, gold, oil, stock trade, obligations, food, etc. To begin understanding this, I encourage you to read about the Dutch Tulip mania of 1637, once you grasp this you'll see it's the same thing happening in every economic bubble. Whenever there is a bubble, the ones making the real profits are the ones who invested before the rapid price increase. The ones joining in the middle of the mania can get some return on investment, but the ones near the end will always be the ones taking the full hit.


Each bubble is driven by how people act during a mania. Some call it The greater fool theory; somebody invests more than an object's real value assuming there will be a greater fool in the future willing to pay a higher premium. This growth never keeps up in the long run, if you understand math you'll see why. So when some of you are making some money on the current cryptocurrency, even though it looks okay for the moment, I can tell you it's not going to last.
Similar, but not quite how Bitcoin has run



and to be quite honest most currencies match that market. Here is the USD for example

Posted on Reply
#103
Vya Domus
"cdawall said:
It takes money to make money. I live in Houston and I can tell you plenty of people with good paying jobs dumped a stupid amount of money into mining. Mining has afforded me a nice 70K dollar SUV, I could have reinvested that money into the market again yes, or I could cash out on something more useful for my family.
It turned out nicely in your case but many people simply do not have the means to do the same and it wouldn't be a smart decision to drop everything and cash into this. It also doesn't mean things can't turn for the worse.
Posted on Reply
#104
cdawall
where the hell are my stars
"Vya Domus said:
It turned out nicely in your case but many people simply do not have the means to do the same and it wouldn't be a smart decision to drop everything and cash into this. It also doesn't mean things can't turn for the worse.
Most miners who did this when it wasn't idiotic reached ROI a while ago
Posted on Reply
#105
notb
"cdawall said:
Most miners who did this when it wasn't idiotic reached ROI a while ago
What you're doing here is pretty unfair and IMO even offending to part of this community.

Most people that get into an investment before the bubble make a profit - this is fairly basic stuff.
But most people that start after the "greed" moment (from the graph in @efikkan 's post) don't make a profit.
So if this turns out to be a bubble and profitability stays on current level (or more likely: drops even further), people that started in June will lose money.

Your role in this is pretty simple. You're the one who made the hugely popular mining thread - you've presented mining as a great investment with no risk ("free money"), you've consulted people on setting up their rigs etc. It was most likely the first time many people on TPU really decided to learn something about mining (me included) and some of them invested into it as a result.

After merely 2 months you're simply telling those people that they started to late. Nice going.

"dorsetknob said:
Not in the EU not unless they want the EU up their ..........................unmentionable
And the EU is a Very Big market ( with consumer Protection Clout )
The 2-year guarantee is only applicable to consumer purchases (much like the 14-day return policy).
So it only protects you if you're a consumer buying a new product from a retailer, when both parties have to be legally registered in EU.

It would be enough for a GPU vendor to offer mining GPUs only for commercial use. The same is true if the cards were sold and shipped directly from Asia.
Posted on Reply
#106
Durvelle27
"Tom_ said:
You must be an Idiot, buying a slow 980Ti instead of a 1080Ti.
Insults are not tolerated on these forums

The 980Ti is an amazing GPU and still packs a nice punch. For the price it's a heck of a steal.

Not everyone needs a 1080Ti nor want to spend that kind of money.
Posted on Reply
#107
cdawall
where the hell are my stars
"notb said:
Your role in this is pretty simple. You're the one who made the hugely popular mining thread - you've presented mining as a great investment with no risk ("free money"), you've consulted people on setting up their rigs etc. It was most likely the first time many people on TPU really decided to learn something about mining (me included) and some of them invested into it as a result.

After merely 2 months you're simply telling those people that they started to late. Nice going.
I wouldn't say it is too late to start now, just not dump money with no thought.

I would say "idiotic" timeframe to me was spending $500 on an rx480/580 or $550+ on a 1070. Maybe I should have phrased that better.

The gpu price has actually fallen back down for most nvidia cards and right this second wouldn't be an awful buy in if you did so frugally.

I still build mining rigs 2-3 times a week for customers.
Posted on Reply
#108
Foobario
"Ubersonic said:
Technically the 980ti raised in value because all the new people jumping on the mining bandwagon eventually realised that Nvidia is highly competitive for mining these days and there's no point spending £300 on a used RX480 when you can get a higher performing 980ti for less. The 10 series was a similar story, once people realised that they had better performance/powerdraw than the RX series they jumped on them due to the AMD shortage and the prices mooned.
The 980TI and any other Maxwell cards are crap at mining. Nvidia gutted the compute capabilities on all their consumer cards in that generation. So any price increases on the 980ti or anything else form that generation is not being directly driven by the "mining bandwagon". The increased prices on 1060s and 1070s directly related to mining has driven up demand for gamers looking for a Nvidia option that they can afford.
Posted on Reply
#109
yotano211
"cowie said:
hope you don't mind me asking but how many gpu's per rig?


like say if I had just 4 580' going in whatever coin that's "in atm" any ballpark number on monthly profits?
I usually do 6 gpus per rig and I have one with 7. 3 rigs are 3 only, 3 cards failed on me leaving 3 good. I RMA'ed those

All of my rigs are paid off but I started back in Feb.(?)

"hat said:
You probably actually earn more this way than you did before too, don't you? Less downtime...

@cdawall you got any 1070s with micron RAM? If so, what's your memory offset and power target for them?
I dont really earn that much less now with stock speeds, maybe 10% but much less headache. I need that time to put into a home business that was suffering when I sent most my time into taking care of the mining rigs. Next month I will sent a few days in cleaning the rigs out.
Posted on Reply
#110
cdawall
where the hell are my stars
"Foobario said:
The 980TI and any other Maxwell cards are crap at mining. Nvidia gutted the compute capabilities on all their consumer cards in that generation. So any price increases on the 980ti or anything else form that generation is not being directly driven by the "mining bandwagon". The increased prices on 1060s and 1070s directly related to mining has driven up demand for gamers looking for a Nvidia option that they can afford.
They do the same as the 1070 just a little more power hungry
Posted on Reply
#111
erocker
*
"yotano211 said:
I usually do 6 gpus per rig and I have one with 7. 3 rigs are 3 only, 3 cards failed on me leaving 3 good. I RMA'ed those

All of my rigs are paid off but I started back in Feb.(?)


I dont really earn that much less now with stock speeds, maybe 10% but much less headache. I need that time to put into a home business that was suffering when I sent most my time into taking care of the mining rigs. Next month I will sent a few days in cleaning the rigs out.
I have merged your posts. Please use the multi-quote or edit feature if you want to quote multiple posts.

Thank you.
Posted on Reply
#112
evernessince
"RejZoR said:
It's almost as if AMD doesn't really care about gamers. Everyone should refuse buying second hand cards. That's f**k miners up as they won't get any financial returns from the hardware. And refuse to buy new ones if prices get stupid. That'll force AMD to decide who they want to support. Gamers or dumb a** miners. Cancerous mining nonsense...
It's not AMD doing this, it's the miners. It's not like you can tell store owners to not sell to certain customers either.
Posted on Reply
#113
the54thvoid
"Captain_Tom said:
It just takes planning people.
So does posting, so please stop constantly double posting.
Posted on Reply
#114
Captain_Tom
"evernessince said:
It's not AMD doing this, it's the miners. It's not like you can tell store owners to not sell to certain customers either.
I would actually disagree. I wouldn't say AMD/Nvidia "don't care about gamers" per se, but I would say they could put a lot more effort into making sure gamers can buy cards.

1. There should be mining-focused versions of cards. Example: RX 570D [$150] = 1792 Stream processors, low 1200 MHz core clock, 4GB GDDR5, only 2 display outputs, and a 30-day warranty. This would be an excellent card for mining (Almost equal to a 580 for $100 less and lower power usage), and if mining demand dries up it still makes a good budget gaming card!


2. AMD needs to make MORE CARDS, but I suspect they are taking this seriously with Vega though for the first time. It seems like they took an extra week to make sure Vega is programmed to be the ultimate mining card, and they will hopefully come prepared with extra stock.
Posted on Reply
#115
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
They're already working on it: http://www.pcworld.com/article/3204149/components-graphics/amd-nvidia-coin-mining-graphics-cards-appear-as-gaming-gpu-shortage-intensifies.html

Mining cards are lower priced than graphics cards. They have a different return policy (very restrictive to protect the manufacturers from mining fluctuations). They don't have any display outputs which forbids them from being of any value to gamers. The thing is, these cards take months to get to the public so this round, they're wholly unprepared. Next time, they should be able to ramp production of mining-specific cards and hopefully shelter gamers from getting gouged.

They can't just produce more graphics cards now because it slaps them in the face when the mining market collapses.

"Captain_Tom said:
-Either way even if I don't mine a complete ROI, I can sell each card for $120 when I am done!
Which means four lost sales for AMD/NVIDIA.
Posted on Reply
#116
notb
"Captain_Tom said:

-I just bought 4 x R9 380 4GB's for $500 total. (22-25 MH/s with modded bios)
-Overall I will pay off a card per month of mining.
-So this will take me like 5 months technically, to finish profiting - but that assumes prices don't increase, and I expect them to by the end of the year.
-Either way even if I don't mine a complete ROI, I can sell each card for $120 when I am done!

It just takes planning people.
Planning like "I expect them to increase"? Really?
And if it will decrease? You've planned that?

Also, I don't know where you live and how much you pay for electricity, but R9 380 is already not breaking even in a fairly large part of the world.
With cheap electricity (US, Eastern Europe) your 4 cards will make maybe $700 during first year. Is it really worth the work and inconvenience?

It might all look great now: $700 "free money". But time goes by and POV changes. Go through @cdawall 's thread - you'll see how many people gave up because they felt it's pointless. And most stopped mining at higher mining rates that we have today.

Also, by the end of the year ethereum should switch to POS and your cards might not make a profit afterwards. So the fun could stop before you hit those 5 months.
And the release of next gen cards (Vega, Volta) will not help either.
Posted on Reply
#117
efikkan
"Captain_Tom said:

AMD needs to make MORE CARDS, but I suspect they are taking this seriously with Vega though for the first time. It seems like they took an extra week to make sure Vega is programmed to be the ultimate mining card, and they will hopefully come prepared with extra stock.
As I've told you, they can't just turn around and make more cards, production of silicon chips takes several months. And the total production volume on the node is limited as well, so if they wanted to have more Polaris or Vega chips today, they would have had to sacrifice some Ryzen batches, and made this decision >=5 months ago. Perhaps it would be wise to sacrifice a few percent of the Ryzen wafers, but how could they have known this back then?

AMD must surely regret using HBM2 for Vega. Even if they could supply enough chips, they would still remain limited by HBM2 supplies. If they used GDDR5(X), they could even have dumped a lower binning just for the miners.
Posted on Reply
#118
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Vega is a 50% about HBM2. If they used GDDR5X, it wouldn't be Vega. Since Vega changed a lot more than just the memory, they couldn't really develop a GDDR5X version in parallel. I expected a GDDR5X derivative of GCN5 next year. It's also a possibility that AMD will not use GDDR5X because AMD has to produce the volume to make HBM2 production viable for the suppliers. HBM2 will always be more expensive to produce than GDDR but supply is something that can be fixed if the demand is there for it.
Posted on Reply
#119
efikkan
"FordGT90Concept said:
Vega is a 50% about HBM2. If they used GDDR5X, it wouldn't be Vega. Since Vega changed a lot more than just the memory, they couldn't really develop a GDDR5X version in parallel. I expected a GDDR5X derivative of GCN5 next year. It's also a possibility that AMD will not use GDDR5X because AMD has to produce the volume to make HBM2 production viable for the suppliers. HBM2 will always be more expensive to produce than GDDR but supply is something that can be fixed if the demand is there for it.
Perhaps PR wise, but they are developing Vega11 and Vega12, which I believe will be using GDDR. After the HBM(1) issues for Fiji, they should have known about the risks. They probably couldn't afford making both a HBM2 and GDDR version of Vega10, so they should have opted for GDDR. That would probably have sacrificed their HBC in the process, but that's really irrelevant for the consumer market anyway.

BTW, what is your expected GDDR version of Vega10 named?
Posted on Reply
#120
hat
Enthusiast
"cdawall said:
All of my 1070's are micron they are all stable at +65/+550/70% TDP that's good for 30mh/s
What qualifies as "stable" for you? For me, first indicator of stability is the OCCT test.
Posted on Reply
#122
nemesis.ie
"Vya Domus said:
That doesn't include the cost of the cards , and you never know how relevant ETH is going to remain relevant ,which is what I used as an example or any coin for that matter. Cards brake too. It's something too volatile for someone that isn't already very financially stable to invest into. Call it a gold mine , I wouldn't. You might just as well start betting.

As a side income it's OK but at that point it as far as it can get form a gold mine.
Ah, I see where the confusion has come from, you wrote PROFIT when you actually meant income/revenue.
Posted on Reply
#123
cdawall
where the hell are my stars
"hat said:
What qualifies as "stable" for you? For me, first indicator of stability is the OCCT test.
If I don't have to restart the rig for anything other than Windows updates
Posted on Reply
#124
Vya Domus
"nemesis.ie said:
Ah, I see where the confusion has come from, you wrote PROFIT when you actually meant income/revenue.
Profit that becomes income , is there a difference ?
Posted on Reply
#125
hat
Enthusiast
Probably profit means money earned over what you paid into it. My BTC is currently worth about 80 bucks, which still leaves me $800 in the hole at the moment.
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