Friday, August 4th 2017

AMD RX Vega Mining Performance Reportedly Doubled With Driver Updates

Disclaimer: take this post with a bucket of salt. However, the information here, if true, could heavily impact AMD's RX Vega cards' stock at launch and in the subsequent days, so, we're sharing this so our readers can decide on whether they want to pull the trigger for a Vega card at launch, as soon as possible, or risk what would seem like the equivalent of a mining Black Friday crowd gobbling up AMD's RX Vega models' stock. Remember that AMD has already justified delays for increased stock so as to limit the impact of miners on the available supply.

The information has been put out by two different sources already. The first source we encountered (and which has been covered by some media outlets solo) has been one post from one of OC UK's staff, Gibbo, who in a forum post, said "Seems the hash rate on VEGA is 70-100 per card, which is insanely good. Trying to devise some kind of plan so gamers can get them at MSRP without the miners wiping all the stock out within 5 minutes of product going live."
The fact that a staffer from OC UK is actually looking for ways to prevent miners from wiping the stock speaks more to the credence of the information than the "70-100 hash rate" claim. Apparently, this information was conveyed to Gibbo from an AMD AIB partner, who remains unknown at time of writing. This information has already been sort of confirmed by a second source, coming out of Videocardz's Why Cry. In a post, the editor reported how he already had come in possession of similar information through his sources, who put the hash rate of RX Vega close to double that of the Frontier Edition's original hash rate, which was ~30 MH/s in Ethereum mining. This means the hash rate could be ~60 mark, which is still close to OC UK's Gibbo's reference to a "70-100" hash rate. This increase in hash rate was apparently indirectly enabled by updated driver features for the RX Vega cards. Apparently, these were included in the drivers to improve features and gaming performance - which also indirectly resulted in increased mining capabilities.

We had already covered in our Vega Architecture Technical Overview article that AMD's Vega NGCU computation capabilities were bolstered through added support for over 40 new ISA instructions, which result in increased IPC over Polaris - and which were also mentioned by VSG at the time as being "very relevant for GPU mining."
Adding to this story is the fact that recent optimizations from a Reddit user to a Monero mining program and an underclock to 1.3 GHz have brought the Frontier Edition's mining hashrates to around 1.16 kH/s - 34% faster than a GeForce GTX 1080 Ti (around 0.76 kH/s according to Nicehash), and 43% faster than a single Radeon RX 580 8 GB. This means that the $999 Frontier Edition currently stands at double the mining performance of the GTX 1080 on Monero - and the gaming RX Vega, with its $499 price-tag, should follow suit. And these are optimizations achieved by a single user, for a cryptocurrency that is admittedly not as popular as Ethereum or others. But increasing levels of performance in some mining algorithms really does leave the door open for exploration of improved speeds on others, and you can rest assured that miners will, at the very least, attempt to achieve these optimizations in other cryptocurrencies.
All in all, if true, these reports lend credence to AMD's take on the RX Vega delays for stock build-up. And the situation seems to be less straightforward than one might hope when it comes to disabling these instructions, or only enabling them at a latter date, after gamers had already had some time to purchase their desired cards. Because these driver-level updates were apparently done with the intent to bolster gaming performance, I believe it's safe to assume AMD can't easily neuter the mining improvements without putting the increased gaming performance at risk as well. Let's see how this pans out, but consider yourselves at least warned - the RX Vega may see much reduced stock and increased pricing throughout if this scenario pans out. in the meantime, those Radeon Packs with both their shortcomings and opportunities are looking like an increasingly interesting way to get ahold of one of AMD's latest... Sources: OCUK's Gibbo, Videocardz, NAG, Dirtbagdh @ Reddit
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216 Comments on AMD RX Vega Mining Performance Reportedly Doubled With Driver Updates

#1
SPLWF
cdawall said:
That's not really getting back at anyone. 2 cards is small potatoes. The guys you are talking about are renting aircraft to fly 60 thousand gpus
Totally understandable. My point I'm trying to make is, they caused prices to go way above MSRP, so now I'm going to gouge them, even if it's a single person.
Posted on Reply
#2
cdawall
where the hell are my stars
SPLWF said:
Totally understandable. My point I'm trying to make is, they caused prices to go way above MSRP, so now I'm going to gouge them, even if it's a single person.
Is it gouging if they quite literally couldn't care less? I sold an obscene numver of 290/390/480/580's at $400 a pop in the past two months. Its not gouging its following the market.
Posted on Reply
#3
SPLWF
cdawall said:
Is it gouging if they quite literally couldn't care less? I sold an obscene numver of 290/390/480/580's at $400 a pop in the past two months. Its not gouging its following the market.
Haha, if you put it that way, so true.

Is it bad that I sold my R9 290 for $100 to my brother in law? This was way before ETH miining, yeah I'm a nice guy. I couldn't get it sold for $250 so I just sold it to him for dirt cheap.

Specs was:

AMD Sapphire R9 290 + NZXT Kraken G10 + Corsair H55 + GELID ICY Vision VRM Heatsinks + Zalman ZM-RHS1 VRAM Heatsinks
Posted on Reply
#6
notb
TheGuruStud said:
Must be nice to legally be able to try to manipulate the market for your own gain. They just released baloney weeks ago, I guess it didn't work (obviously, stock didn't fall haha).
Well it's not "manipulating the market". It's a forecast. That's what we pay investments bank to do.
You can't just undermine everything that is against AMD...

BTW: wasn't the leaked Zen performance figures / the hype the actual market manipulation? Think how many people preordered a Ryzen and how much the stock price increased as a result.
In normal conditions people shouldn't preorder anything, ever.
Posted on Reply
#7
Th3pwn3r
the54thvoid said:
lol, I know enough about renewables, what you dont know is in the UK the energy companies pass on the ful costs to develop them. The UK is not like the US. Our version of a free market is pretty much, don't pass on the savings, charge extra for the R&D. Our bills are rising over here (even before brexit) even though energy wholesale costs have risen and fallen etc.

Our govt plain sucks at improving business to help all. So renewables, ironically, end up adding a tariff onto our bills as the govt imposes CO2 emission chrages on coal and gas etc. And solar is not free. The R&D plus manufacture and actual solar efficiency is pretty bad. And where i live it's very green and very cloudy - no droughts, very little sun.
What I said is that solar is basically free energy. Don't let semantics get the better of you. There's something called return on investment(ROI) after a period of time something will pay for itself. It's the same thing for miners, after the GPU and electricity is paid for they may possibly return a profit.


notb said:
OH MY GOD.
First we had "mining is free money" and now "solar is free energy". Where do you guys come from? :eek:
Where is this going? What's next? Fridge contains free food?

Why would anyone install a solar panel in Illinois? I checked some figures on sun exposure and it should be similar to central Europe - that is: rubbish. Solar panels in Europe are subsidized, because they can hardly make a profit.
Again, don't skew what was posted, I said BASICALLY FREE, big difference from IS FREE. If I gave you a solar array and installed it for you here in Chicago you could possibly have the utility company owing you money, of course they never pay you in cash, they just credit your account.

TheGuruStud said:
Don't worry, after everyone installs them, IL will pass a high tax on owning solar panels and give half the money to the electric companies (the rest into their wallets).
Honestly, I wouldn't doubt it if they tried to impose a tax. Here in Cook County they just placed a sweetened beverage tax on us of $0.01 per ounce of liquid.

cdawall said:
Mining is free money :roll: What is the saying "if you love your job you never work a day in your life"?
Once you've hit your return on investment it is, assuming your currency isn't stolen.

dozenfury said:
Energy certainly isn't free and I haven't heard much of solar in Illinois, but there have been many large wind turbine farms in Illinois for years. There are ones with 100+ turbines just outside Peoria and close to 100 near DeKalb, and many others. Combined with cheap natural gas, thankfully energy is relatively very cheap here (.065 a kw/hr).

Unless you're running a ton of cards (like 20+) I doubt it would be a blip on a energy company radar. 1 plasma tv uses as many watts as 2 Vegas. I've also filled pools before which used thousands of extra gallons of water and I didn't have police at my door.
You haven't heard of much solar in Illinois because you're not involved with it. I'm an IBEW Local 134 electrician. We already have some good size solar fields out there, the West Pulman area is a great example and there are many more arrays being planned right now.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/West+Pullman+Branch,+Chicago+Public+Library/@41.6742517,-87.6531081,1005m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x880e2441f5c5839d:0xc4589ca9afeba7ba!8m2!3d41.6780523!4d-87.6430841

There are of course some costs that come with the territory, these panels aren't invulnerable to bullets. The locals like to fire their guns in the air and those bullets come down and damage modules from time to time.


R0H1T said:
Energy isn;t totally free, ever. Anyone imagining it is living in cuckoo land, there are maintenance, material, personnel costs involved in using renewables.
Unless you can eliminate all 3, basically free installation & free everything afterwards, there will be certain costs associated with solar, wind et al forever.
Yep, that's why key words need to be left in the text. It's semantics but I said solar was basically free energy. There's a big difference. If you pay in full(you usually don't) your ROI would be about 20 years depending on your install. I could do the work myself if I wanted to so that would save myself a lot on labor.

notb said:



Solar-wise Illinois is rubbish - no point discussing that further. :)

As for wind... Generally speaking, Illinois is quite far from the central US area known for strong winds. Yet, there are quite many wind farms.
Is wind energy subsidized by the state? Or maybe there's some microclimat that helps? Lakes?
Potential: http://www.tindallcorp.com/site/user/images/USA_Wind_Map_for_Tindall_Transp_2.jpg
Installations: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Distribution_of_wind_power_plants_in_U.S.png
You clearly don't know what you're talking about. You've clearly never been here and used a solar pathfinder. Solar is actually really good in Illinois. There are also kickbacks for solar installs for $10,000 in cases, a solar install will also add $10,000 to the value of your home after a home appraisal while most installs will be around $20,000 so right away you can break even. However, where I live I pay very little for per kilowatt-hour so in my case it would take a long time for solar to make sense if kickbacks weren't in effect. But I suggest you do your research and you'll realize how good solar is in Illinois and why there are very big projects being planned. IKEA has commited already.
http://midwestenergynews.com/2017/03/28/ikea-continues-its-renewables-push-with-illinois-largest-rooftop-solar-array/
Posted on Reply
#8
TheGuruStud
notb said:
Well it's not "manipulating the market". It's a forecast. That's what we pay investments bank to do.
You can't just undermine everything that is against AMD...

BTW: wasn't the leaked Zen performance figures / the hype the actual market manipulation? Think how many people preordered a Ryzen and how much the stock price increased as a result.
In normal conditions people shouldn't preorder anything, ever.
Do you think real forecasts are given for free? Wallstreet is the scum of the planet. You might as well believe the govt while you're at it lol.
Posted on Reply
#9
cdawall
where the hell are my stars
Th3pwn3r said:
Once you've hit your return on investment it is, assuming your currency isn't stolen.
Don't hold coins and that doesn't happen.
Posted on Reply
#10
Th3pwn3r
cdawall said:
Don't hold coins and that doesn't happen.
Can I come over to your house? I'm going to guess you have all your savings hidden under your mattress.
Posted on Reply
#11
cdawall
where the hell are my stars
Th3pwn3r said:
Can I come over to your house? I'm going to guess you have all your savings hidden under your mattress.
I trust the bank not to steal my USD. The cryptocurrency market however I never keep anything I can't afford go lose in it. I just cashed out a chunk from BTC I got at 2600 as it broke 3400
Posted on Reply
#12
notb
TheGuruStud said:
Do you think real forecasts are given for free? Wallstreet is the scum of the planet. You might as well believe the govt while you're at it lol.
Yes. Banks are making thousands of analyses and forecasts. Some of them (for mainstream stocks) are released publicly as an element of marketing.
Sure, it's not always right, but it's in their interest to be as accurate as possible.
And it's not just banks - e.g. there was this guy that says BTC will be worth $50k. He's made a living (and a media career) by giving some recommendations for free - most likely the ones he finds most accurate.

Sometimes investment banks are employed by companies to "guard" the stock price. This is legal and clean.
But manipulating against the company is illegal. I doubt any large bank would take that risk for AMD - a small, yet very popular company (too many people and institutions watching).

Now, obviously there are documented situations where banks tried to manipulate a market with their publications and trades, but it's really, really rare. And usually about currencies, not stocks.
Posted on Reply
#13
Bronan
Ubersonic said:
The flaw with that plan is that real miners (the ones causing the shortages) don't resell cards they run them till they die or become obsolete (at which point they're worth like £50 tops). The ones that resell/reuse them are the gamers/hobbyists who only get involved in mining for a short time during the booms.
LoL Believe me you do not want to buy a miner card at all unless you do not mind artifacts and a short lifespan of that card. In most cases the fans die because of the 24/7/365 usage. And in most cases the cards i used for mining ended up crashing or showed really weird things when i tried to game on them.
After i stopped mining with them i tested most and selected those which did not show artifacts and sold them for half the second hand market prices, or if they flunked i scrapped them. A good miner makes sure these card never hit the gamers market or warns the user that the risk of the card failing is high.
Thinking that it would be a good deal that miners dump those on the market is absolute misleading yourself.
I hope that both companies soon make mining cards in all the models from 1060 to 1080ti and from amd's rx560 up to the vega rx 64 watercooled.
In case someone claims a miner card is useless then you never heard of sli / or setting the card as physics for nvidia and amd is even much more fun you can add 4 cards and only need 1 card to connect to monitor(s) the rest will add the power anyway. Ofcourse adding cards does not give you double the performance but it works .... they do not need to have a monitor connector at all. Especially AMD because it uses crossfire-x so no need for linking the cards with a bridge. Make sure to check that your motherboard supports CF-x but any modern motherboard does in most cases up to 4 cards. It seems you can actually use AMD and nvidia up to 8 cards in windows 10. But my experience with that is its not working well. Even 2 x nvidia and 2 amd is not easy to get and keep it working especially when large updates arrives.
Posted on Reply
#14
Bronan
Th3pwn3r said:
What I said is that solar is basically free energy. Don't let semantics get the better of you. There's something called return on investment(ROI) after a period of time something will pay for itself. It's the same thing for miners, after the GPU and electricity is paid for they may possibly return a profit.




Again, don't skew what was posted, I said BASICALLY FREE, big difference from IS FREE. If I gave you a solar array and installed it for you here in Chicago you could possibly have the utility company owing you money, of course they never pay you in cash, they just credit your account.



Honestly, I wouldn't doubt it if they tried to impose a tax. Here in Cook County they just placed a sweetened beverage tax on us of $0.01 per ounce of liquid.



Once you've hit your return on investment it is, assuming your currency isn't stolen.



You haven't heard of much solar in Illinois because you're not involved with it. I'm an IBEW Local 134 electrician. We already have some good size solar fields out there, the West Pulman area is a great example and there are many more arrays being planned right now.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/West+Pullman+Branch,+Chicago+Public+Library/@41.6742517,-87.6531081,1005m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x880e2441f5c5839d:0xc4589ca9afeba7ba!8m2!3d41.6780523!4d-87.6430841

There are of course some costs that come with the territory, these panels aren't invulnerable to bullets. The locals like to fire their guns in the air and those bullets come down and damage modules from time to time.




Yep, that's why key words need to be left in the text. It's semantics but I said solar was basically free energy. There's a big difference. If you pay in full(you usually don't) your ROI would be about 20 years depending on your install. I could do the work myself if I wanted to so that would save myself a lot on labor.



You clearly don't know what you're talking about. You've clearly never been here and used a solar pathfinder. Solar is actually really good in Illinois. There are also kickbacks for solar installs for $10,000 in cases, a solar install will also add $10,000 to the value of your home after a home appraisal while most installs will be around $20,000 so right away you can break even. However, where I live I pay very little for per kilowatt-hour so in my case it would take a long time for solar to make sense if kickbacks weren't in effect. But I suggest you do your research and you'll realize how good solar is in Illinois and why there are very big projects being planned. IKEA has commited already.
http://midwestenergynews.com/2017/03/28/ikea-continues-its-renewables-push-with-illinois-largest-rooftop-solar-array/
Regarding solar energy its not worth the money in my country (netherlands) they are heavily taxed and costs a fortune. In my case almost 20.000 euro (bruto 6000 Wh) before you get that money back your well in the future and guess what the converter which costs about 2500 euro has to be replaced every 5 to 7 year see the problem here.
As soon as you think your earning something back your earning back is moved further in the future every 5 to 7 years. So you really believe that it is free money.....
Then there is the low return of these things because non of these solar selling companies tell the truth about the system.
The truth is that every part of these things eat power as well which is never calculated the converter consumes 250 to 550 watt and every panel depending if they do not have the power optimizers or they do.
15 to 25 watt without and up 75 with the optimizers. Ofcourse there is much more loss but it goes too far to give a estimate because it all depends on how long the cables and how the solar panels are placed and so on.
My system does hardly ever deliver 6000 watt at all on average it produces just below 3000 watt at a very sunny day .... So the calculation that i earned this whole crap back in less than 7 years is a pure BS it actually will never pay me back the price i payed for it, it actually will cost me every 5 to 7 year a new converter and thats without installation costs.
Even if you have the perfect alignement and have a high solar day count its hard to break even ever.
"btw 20000 euro is about 24000 dollar"
So even though my power bill dropped i still have to pay my power company because its not even covering the little power i use in my home, you allways need power when there is no effective sunlight for these things to make up for the power the system consumes.
Thats why they allways refuse to tell what your real return delivery is, because they know its much less than you think.
When i asked them to install meters so i could monitor the real power delivered they kept saying it was impossible todo.
At the electricity meter from the power company it shows over 2 years that it delivered back 4500 kWh in total to the meter
Posted on Reply
#15
Th3pwn3r
Bronan said:
Regarding solar energy its not worth the money in my country (netherlands) they are heavily taxed and costs a fortune. In my case almost 20.000 euro (bruto 6000 Wh) before you get that money back your well in the future and guess what the converter which costs about 2500 euro has to be replaced every 5 to 7 year see the problem here.
As soon as you think your earning something back your earning back is moved further in the future every 5 to 7 years. So you really believe that it is free money.....
Then there is the low return of these things because non of these solar selling companies tell the truth about the system.
The truth is that every part of these things eat power as well which is never calculated the converter consumes 250 to 550 watt and every panel depending if they do not have the power optimizers or they do.
15 to 25 watt without and up 75 with the optimizers. Ofcourse there is much more loss but it goes too far to give a estimate because it all depends on how long the cables and how the solar panels are placed and so on.
My system does hardly ever deliver 6000 watt at all on average it produces just below 3000 watt at a very sunny day .... So the calculation that i earned this whole crap back in less than 7 years is a pure BS it actually will never pay me back the price i payed for it, it actually will cost me every 5 to 7 year a new converter and thats without installation costs.
Even if you have the perfect alignement and have a high solar day count its hard to break even ever.
"btw 20000 euro is about 24000 dollar"
So even though my power bill dropped i still have to pay my power company because its not even covering the little power i use in my home, you allways need power when there is no effective sunlight for these things to make up for the power the system consumes.
Thats why they allways refuse to tell what your real return delivery is, because they know its much less than you think.
When i asked them to install meters so i could monitor the real power delivered they kept saying it was impossible todo.
At the electricity meter from the power company it shows over 2 years that it delivered back 4500 kWh in total to the meter
It's certainly not great for everyone. And yes parts do wear out and the part that sucks is some of them can't be repaired so you're stuck buying new. You are being sold poor quality gear. My instructor has had systems last over 25 years without needing any service. However a lot of warranties are 20 years, you can get more out of them but performance does diminish over time . Lastly, it's an inverter
Posted on Reply
#16
Marstg
So guys, are you using the AMD mining driver? I installed it but I see no difference on my 290X. In plus, I cannot overclock it on MSI Afterburner.
Posted on Reply
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