Friday, August 4th 2017

AMD RX Vega Mining Performance Reportedly Doubled With Driver Updates

Disclaimer: take this post with a bucket of salt. However, the information here, if true, could heavily impact AMD's RX Vega cards' stock at launch and in the subsequent days, so, we're sharing this so our readers can decide on whether they want to pull the trigger for a Vega card at launch, as soon as possible, or risk what would seem like the equivalent of a mining Black Friday crowd gobbling up AMD's RX Vega models' stock. Remember that AMD has already justified delays for increased stock so as to limit the impact of miners on the available supply.

The information has been put out by two different sources already. The first source we encountered (and which has been covered by some media outlets solo) has been one post from one of OC UK's staff, Gibbo, who in a forum post, said "Seems the hash rate on VEGA is 70-100 per card, which is insanely good. Trying to devise some kind of plan so gamers can get them at MSRP without the miners wiping all the stock out within 5 minutes of product going live."
The fact that a staffer from OC UK is actually looking for ways to prevent miners from wiping the stock speaks more to the credence of the information than the "70-100 hash rate" claim. Apparently, this information was conveyed to Gibbo from an AMD AIB partner, who remains unknown at time of writing. This information has already been sort of confirmed by a second source, coming out of Videocardz's Why Cry. In a post, the editor reported how he already had come in possession of similar information through his sources, who put the hash rate of RX Vega close to double that of the Frontier Edition's original hash rate, which was ~30 MH/s in Ethereum mining. This means the hash rate could be ~60 mark, which is still close to OC UK's Gibbo's reference to a "70-100" hash rate. This increase in hash rate was apparently indirectly enabled by updated driver features for the RX Vega cards. Apparently, these were included in the drivers to improve features and gaming performance - which also indirectly resulted in increased mining capabilities.

We had already covered in our Vega Architecture Technical Overview article that AMD's Vega NGCU computation capabilities were bolstered through added support for over 40 new ISA instructions, which result in increased IPC over Polaris - and which were also mentioned by VSG at the time as being "very relevant for GPU mining."
Adding to this story is the fact that recent optimizations from a Reddit user to a Monero mining program and an underclock to 1.3 GHz have brought the Frontier Edition's mining hashrates to around 1.16 kH/s - 34% faster than a GeForce GTX 1080 Ti (around 0.76 kH/s according to Nicehash), and 43% faster than a single Radeon RX 580 8 GB. This means that the $999 Frontier Edition currently stands at double the mining performance of the GTX 1080 on Monero - and the gaming RX Vega, with its $499 price-tag, should follow suit. And these are optimizations achieved by a single user, for a cryptocurrency that is admittedly not as popular as Ethereum or others. But increasing levels of performance in some mining algorithms really does leave the door open for exploration of improved speeds on others, and you can rest assured that miners will, at the very least, attempt to achieve these optimizations in other cryptocurrencies.
All in all, if true, these reports lend credence to AMD's take on the RX Vega delays for stock build-up. And the situation seems to be less straightforward than one might hope when it comes to disabling these instructions, or only enabling them at a latter date, after gamers had already had some time to purchase their desired cards. Because these driver-level updates were apparently done with the intent to bolster gaming performance, I believe it's safe to assume AMD can't easily neuter the mining improvements without putting the increased gaming performance at risk as well. Let's see how this pans out, but consider yourselves at least warned - the RX Vega may see much reduced stock and increased pricing throughout if this scenario pans out. in the meantime, those Radeon Packs with both their shortcomings and opportunities are looking like an increasingly interesting way to get ahold of one of AMD's latest... Sources: OCUK's Gibbo, Videocardz, NAG, Dirtbagdh @ Reddit
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216 Comments on AMD RX Vega Mining Performance Reportedly Doubled With Driver Updates

#126
cdawall
where the hell are my stars
"Captain_Tom said:
Buddy I just want to thank you for having so many level-headed responses in this ocean of ignorance.

What you said is exactly correct - Mining isn't technically as profitable as it was a few months ago, but it still can easily be VERY profitable depending on how you look at it. Consider this:

-I just bought 4 x R9 380 4GB's for $500 total. (22-25 MH/s with modded bios)
-Overall I will pay off a card per month of mining.
-So this will take me like 5 months technically, to finish profiting - but that assumes prices don't increase, and I expect them to by the end of the year.
-Either way even if I don't mine a complete ROI, I can sell each card for $120 when I am done!

It just takes planning people.
How much power does that pull? Those are right round the same performance as my 1060s
Posted on Reply
#127
Steevo
"cdawall said:
Similar, but not quite how Bitcoin has run



and to be quite honest most currencies match that market. Here is the USD for example


One could ask how much a Roman coin trades for now since it was one of the longest and furthest reaching governments. Most of the money we trade with is older than ours, but still somewhat short lived in the grand scheme of things.


So money is only as stable as the government or liquid assets backing it, crypto has no government and is the first to be so, and the value is an arbitrary amount that few have most of the control of. That sounds like a recipe for disaster at some time in the future.
Posted on Reply
#128
nemesis.ie
"Vya Domus said:
Profit that becomes income , is there a difference ?
Yes, absolutely. It's the same as how companies report their finances. Income/revenue is the amount of money that comes in (i.e. what you sell the cons for), profit is how much you make after ALL the expenses are paid - electricity, cards, time spent and potentially taxes.

So very different.
Posted on Reply
#129
cdawall
where the hell are my stars
"Steevo said:
One could ask how much a Roman coin trades for now since it was one of the longest and furthest reaching governments. Most of the money we trade with is older than ours, but still somewhat short lived in the grand scheme of things.


So money is only as stable as the government or liquid assets backing it, crypto has no government and is the first to be so, and the value is an arbitrary amount that few have most of the control of. That sounds like a recipe for disaster at some time in the future.
My example of the USD rings oddly similar. Having the US government backing it is of no consequence since we lack the assets to payback the debt and have traded iba deficit for over a century now. It is based on the "good will" of the us government just like cryptocurrency is based off of the "good will" of the people using it.
Posted on Reply
#130
Vya Domus
"nemesis.ie said:
Yes, absolutely. It's the same as how companies report their finances. Income/revenue is the amount of money that comes in (i.e. what you sell the cons for), profit is how much you make after ALL the expenses are paid - electricity, cards, time spent and potentially taxes.

So very different.
At the end of the day it is money that you made , therefore income. You are not a corporation therefore it is kind of meaningless to look at it that way.

Are you implying that cash sort of sits in it's own little special place ? It doesn't , it's money that you made , just like the money you get from your job.
Posted on Reply
#131
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
"the54thvoid said:
This should just depress poeple:

http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/8229/ethereum-mining-1gh-40-gpus-5000-per-month/index.html
That was written on Jun 21. Look at the follow ups:
Jul 8 Anyone buying hardware to mine Ethereum is going to lose
Jul 11 Ethereum Mining is Dead: Price Drops, Difficulty Booms
Jul 20 Cryptocurrency mining deflates, used GPUs hit eBay

It's like an addiction: the highs are high but the lows are low.

I was hoping to find out details on the power consumption but doesn't look he did it. His bill was probably $1000/mo. If this keeps up, I wouldn't be surprised if power companies add surcharges for people that surge in power consumption.
Posted on Reply
#132
notb
"efikkan said:
Perhaps PR wise, but they are developing Vega11 and Vega12, which I believe will be using GDDR.
Which makes sense since Vega is 50% PR. We didn't know what the other 50% is, but this "mining driver" might be it.

This card's hype was built on HBM2. Not HBM. It's HBM2; "two" - new, better, more.
If not for this, it'll be just another GPU - no one would care.
Same for Zen. It's not just an MCM CPU with some interconnect solution. It has Infinity Matrix - a name instantly attractive and familiar to Millennials.


"Vya Domus said:
At the end of the day it is money that you made , therefore income.
Yes, it's income. But it's not profit.
If your rig is not effective, i.e. using more electricity than it creates value in coins, you still have an income (maybe a big one). But you're not making a profit.
You are not a corporation therefore it is kind of meaningless to look at it that way.
It's meaningless to check if you're actually earning money on your work/investment? Seriously?
Are you implying that cash sort of sits in it's own little special place ? It doesn't , it's money that you made , just like the money you get from your job.
But you also have some costs of your job! E.g. you have to cover commuting. If you work in an office, you usually have to get formal clothes. And so on.
I don't recognize commuting as a job cost, because I'd buy a monthly bus ticket anyway. But I do spend around $50 / month on clothes that I only use at work. And I also eat out often because of my job: that is another $100 / month.
Things like this add up... a job with a higher salary might not be the job with higher profit.
Posted on Reply
#133
nemesis.ie
@Vaya Domus

Yes, there is income, but the point is that is not the same as profit.

You are missing the point: let's say you had an income of 10,000, if your cards and electricity cost you 8,000, you only made a profit of 2,000 ...

Thus 40k of profit is very different to 40k that also includes all the expenses. My comment was that 40k PROFIT would be very nice.

It's not the same "income" as you are calling it as an income from a job where the same 40k would already have all the taxes etc. paid on it when you get it and you have it to spend. That would be the same as profit in the mining instance.

Maybe go and look up the definitions of the words if I'm not explaining it well enough. ;)
Posted on Reply
#134
the54thvoid
"FordGT90Concept said:
That was written on Jun 21. Look at the follow ups:
Jul 8 Anyone buying hardware to mine Ethereum is going to lose
Jul 11 Ethereum Mining is Dead: Price Drops, Difficulty Booms
Jul 20 Cryptocurrency mining deflates, used GPUs hit eBay

It's like an addiction: the highs are high but the lows are low.

I was hoping to find out details on the power consumption but doesn't look he did it. His bill was probably $1000/mo. If this keeps up, I wouldn't be surprised if power companies add surcharges for people that surge in power consumption.
Yeah, I was hoping to see his costs. A good site needs to be developed and updated to reflect hashrate and income versus national energy costs. i.e if i mined in the UK, where electricity isn't cheap because we nationalised a long time ago and the power companies are greedy fuckers, a 2 card rig would run about 400-500watts, maybe with 40-60 hash rate. What would the revenue versus budget be?

That's such a good exam question for next years kids.

EDIT: like your power company surcharge idea, it would be justifiable for companies to charge you a secondary business rate for electricity usage. After all, if you are consuming 5 households worth of energy and that trend increased, we'd be more prone to blackouts in vulnerable times. People need to release fast that energy isn't infinte.
Posted on Reply
#135
Vya Domus
"nemesis.ie said:
@Vaya Domus

Yes, there is income, but the point is that is not the same as profit.

You are missing the point: let's say you had an income of 10,000, if your cards and electricity cost you 8,000, you only made a profit of 2,000 ...

Thus 40k of profit is very different to 40k that also includes all the expenses. My comment was that 40k PROFIT would be very nice.

It's not the same "income" as you are calling it as an income from a job where the same 40k would already have all the taxes etc. paid on it when you get it and you have it to spend. That would be the same as profit in the mining instance.

Maybe go and look up the definitions of the words if I'm not explaining it well enough. ;)
Have I argued with what those things mean ? No. I argued it simply doesn't matter to bother with such details in that situation. You're not doing something on such a large scale that you would need to look at it that way.
All you would do is play "the business man" while in reality you aren't one. Look at it whichever way you want.
Posted on Reply
#136
efikkan
"notb said:
Which makes sense since Vega is 50% PR. We didn't know what the other 50% is, but this "mining driver" might be it.

This card's hype was built on HBM2. Not HBM. It's HBM2; "two" - new, better, more.
If not for this, it'll be just another GPU - no one would care.
Same for Zen. It's not just an MCM CPU with some interconnect solution. It has Infinity Matrix - a name instantly attractive and familiar to Millennials.
"Infinity matrix" would have to be one of the coolest technology names ever created. I wish AMD put as much effort into their actual technology as they put into PR and marketing.

AMD also made a big deal about using "AI" for branch prediction, because you know, everything has to use the "AI" gimmick these days. What it actually does is keeping a list of the results from last few conditionals, so when it runs into a loop it can use it for branch prediction. It's just simple statistics, just like Intel does. But of course it sounds much better when it's presented as "AI" that analyzes and optimizes your applications. You'll have to give them credit, AMD are masters of PR.

I remember back in February when some claimed Nvidia were anxious about the coming Vega and had to release GTX 1080 Ti to counter it… (look how that turned out)
Posted on Reply
#137
justanother gamer
"RejZoR said:
If this garbage continues I'll be forced to buy GTX 1080/Ti. There goes the idea of having AMD ever again...
expectations and self realizations are a wonder to behold. Some want to throw up their hands and run over and just buy a 1080, that's OK everyone must make a decision themselves. Prices for High end will Never drop down much, proof is in the pudding. AMD Never said that their return would bring the holy grail of GPU's, everyone doing the early reporting was creaming their pants making ungodly predictions. Their product is good still in its infancy and prone to problems, Crypto mining boon for these cards is a surprise because AMD kept a lot of information secret. but its funny in a way how you get fanboys from both sides decrying everything. AMD can't really do much once they push their products out to market. Look at New Egg already capitalizing on 170$ price increase as others have posted from their authorized sellers , and who's to say it wont go higher. From the numbers pushed there will be a true rush from professional miners and newbs who think to get into it. i know many don't get it. So for many its a going to be either take the plunge and buy before miners deluge the market or wait 2-3 months for production to catch up with demand and possible price
inflation considering the FE has increased 11%. guess i'll order a Aqua package before new egg and amazon Jack-up prices. you wait a few months and who knows that new Vega you ordered may be a repackaged miners card :).
Posted on Reply
#138
Steevo
"cdawall said:
My example of the USD rings oddly similar. Having the US government backing it is of no consequence since we lack the assets to payback the debt and have traded iba deficit for over a century now. It is based on the "good will" of the us government just like cryptocurrency is based off of the "good will" of the people using it.
Guns and goods is what currently back the USD, no one is stupid enough to demand repayment as it would ultimately lead to physical conflict, and its also why the US has private lands owned wholly by companies and or individuals of other nations and that is somehow OK.
Posted on Reply
#139
notb
"Vya Domus said:
Have I argued with what those things mean ? No. I argued it simply doesn't matter to bother with such details in that situation. You're not doing something on such a large scale that you would need to look at it that way.
All you would do is play "the business man" while in reality you aren't one. Look at it whichever way you want.
Scale is irrelevant. We're mostly talking about - how a "business man" would say - allocated costs. So a cost comes from a card running.
Depending on the card you choose and electricity tariff, power draw will usually consume between 20 and 50% of the mining income. You still think it doesn't matter?
And I'm talking about the modern GPUs. An older card (and most CPUs) will not make a profit at all (electricity cost > mining income).

I'm sorry to say this, but this discussion does suggest that you're not really in control of your home budget. Although I have to consider a possibility that you're 12 and you're still not thinking about such things - I'd say that would be OK (I was already a "business-type" back then, but thankfully not everyone has to be one :-)).


"efikkan said:
"Infinity matrix" would have to be one of the coolest technology names ever created. I wish AMD put as much effort into their actual technology as they put into PR and marketing.
I admit that Infinity Matrix is indeed a nice name. But there have been some poor choices as well, like the "Threadripper". And there's the EPYC fail... I mean... sorry, but I can't imagine myself making a presentation for the Board recommending EPYC CPUs for the server.
Maybe this will be acceptable in USA, but outside it'll just generate jokes and facepalms on business meetings.
Where is this going next? Will we see a DUDE or something like that?
AMD also made a big deal about using "AI" for branch prediction, because you know, everything has to use the "AI" gimmick these days.
I can't blame them for this. AI (and Big Data) is in fact the hottest topic now.
But as you've described, the "AI" in Zen is not that special or unique. They're actually quite late (compared to Intel).
You'll have to give them credit, AMD are masters of PR.
I much preferred them being masters of innovation and performance, like when my PC was full of AMD/ATI parts (Athlon 1700+ and R9500Pro).
Maybe AMD should close their semiconductor business and become a PR agency? Many Chinese companies struggle to understand Western culture and I'm pretty sure they're ready to pay more than AMD earns from current ventures.
Posted on Reply
#140
Vya Domus
"notb said:


I'm sorry to say this, but this discussion
I wasn't discussing anything with you. You proved your lack of comprehension on all subjects a long time ago.

"notb said:
Although I have to consider a possibility that you're 12 .
Right , forgot why I wanted to put you on ignore. Grow up buddy.
Posted on Reply
#141
nemesis.ie
I think I might do the same with you for oddly (or maybe not), the reasons you just mentioned ...
Posted on Reply
#142
Vya Domus
"nemesis.ie said:
I think I might do the same with you for oddly (or maybe not), the reasons you just mentioned ...
Do as you please , after all you're arguing with nothing more than a opinion at this point and I really don't know where you are trying to get to.
Posted on Reply
#143
Captain_Tom
"FordGT90Concept said:
They're already working on it: http://www.pcworld.com/article/3204149/components-graphics/amd-nvidia-coin-mining-graphics-cards-appear-as-gaming-gpu-shortage-intensifies.html

Mining cards are lower priced than graphics cards. They have a different return policy (very restrictive to protect the manufacturers from mining fluctuations). They don't have any display outputs which forbids them from being of any value to gamers. The thing is, these cards take months to get to the public so this round, they're wholly unprepared. Next time, they should be able to ramp production of mining-specific cards and hopefully shelter gamers from getting gouged.

They can't just produce more graphics cards now because it slaps them in the face when the mining market collapses.


Which means four lost sales for AMD/NVIDIA.
yeah, and? People neglect the used market too much anyways.
Posted on Reply
#144
RejZoR
"justanother gamer said:
expectations and self realizations are a wonder to behold. Some want to throw up their hands and run over and just buy a 1080, that's OK everyone must make a decision themselves. Prices for High end will Never drop down much, proof is in the pudding. AMD Never said that their return would bring the holy grail of GPU's, everyone doing the early reporting was creaming their pants making ungodly predictions. Their product is good still in its infancy and prone to problems, Crypto mining boon for these cards is a surprise because AMD kept a lot of information secret. but its funny in a way how you get fanboys from both sides decrying everything. AMD can't really do much once they push their products out to market. Look at New Egg already capitalizing on 170$ price increase as others have posted from their authorized sellers , and who's to say it wont go higher. From the numbers pushed there will be a true rush from professional miners and newbs who think to get into it. i know many don't get it. So for many its a going to be either take the plunge and buy before miners deluge the market or wait 2-3 months for production to catch up with demand and possible price
inflation considering the FE has increased 11%. guess i'll order a Aqua package before new egg and amazon Jack-up prices. you wait a few months and who knows that new Vega you ordered may be a repackaged miners card :).
Well, with miners already drooling over VEGA for their mining garbage, it's not looking good. I'm frankly still interested in RX Vega, I'm just afraid it won't be obtainable or the prices will be ridiculous. It's even more of a problem because I have to wait for september because that's when aftermarket Vega's arrive. Blower just isn't worth it and AiO version might be priced a bit too high. But I think they'll be easier obtainable now than in september.
Posted on Reply
#145
Vya Domus
"Captain_Tom said:
People neglect the used market too much anyways.
I wonder why...
Posted on Reply
#146
Vya Domus
"Captain_Tom said:
I mean I do too. If you know why please share with the rest of the class lol.

I remember a few years ago when people were buying 750 Ti's for $150 while you get a 7970 for $120 that matched the 780 if they were both overclocked. What a bunch of idiots.
I would not touch any used high end AMD GPU from the last few years. Especially 7970s and R9 290. There is no way to tell if they have been used for mining 24/7 and how many times they have been baked. I had friends that got pretty much scammed trying to pick one of these up and then having them fail/artifact in like a month or so.

So think again 7970 for the price of a 750ti is a screaming scam. Not idiots at all.
Posted on Reply
#147
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
"Captain_Tom said:
yeah, and? People neglect the used market too much anyways.
Because tech moves fast. Cards just a few years old are effectively half as fast. Where a car or cloths still fulfill their purpose just as well, the bar is always rising with tech. Hell, a graphics card a decade old will struggle running an internet browser today because it lacks hardware acceleration in modern browsers. A decade old car is actually still pretty good in most regards by comparison (so long as it wasn't beat to hell).
Posted on Reply
#148
Captain_Tom
"hat said:
Probably profit means money earned over what you paid into it. My BTC is currently worth about 80 bucks, which still leaves me $800 in the hole at the moment.
I just don't even know if that's possible. When did you buy Bitcoin for 10x more than it is worth now?!

Or do you mean mining? If so, I also am a bit confused on what you are doing. What did you build, and what's your selling pattern?

"cdawall said:
How much power does that pull? Those are right round the same performance as my 1060s
If you PM'd me next Friday, I will have an answer for you. Until then I really won't have had the time to fully set up and and flash everything to full stability. But those are my estimates from forums.

Don't be surprised if it matches your 1060's though. I cannot say this enough to people: Nvidia. Isn't. As Good. As AMD. For Mining. Only the 1070 beats the efficiency of Polaris, and that's while costing twice as much. I mean even my used 290X I picked up on craigslist does 31 MH/s for like 175w. That's a 3 generation old card somewhat close to everything else Nvidia has now.

"Vya Domus said:
I would not touch any used high end AMD GPU from the last few years. Especially 7970s and R9 290. There is no way to tell if they have been used for mining 24/7 and how many times they have been baked. I had friends that got pretty much scammed trying to pick one of these up and then having them fail/artifact in like a month or so.

So think again 7970 for the price of a 750ti is a screaming scam.
And what if they were used for mining? I have never had a card break from mining lol.

But yeah go a buy a 750 Ti over something stronger than the 770 lmao. Yeah that makes you smart /s
Posted on Reply
#149
Vya Domus
"Captain_Tom said:
And if they were used for mining? I have never had a card break from mining lol.

But yeah go a buy a 750 Ti over something stronger than the 770 lmao. Yeah that makes you smart /s
Then you're simply unaware or want to ignore a very real issue. Mining combined with what @FordGT90Concept said makes picking up a used card not such a good idea and picking up an AMD card a horrible idea.

And by the way you can just simply buy a GTX 680 for the same or even less money that is equal to a 770/7970.That would make you smart.
Posted on Reply
#150
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Eh, I don't buy the argument that running a card at 100% load for extended periods of time really impacts life span. It just exposes design flaws faster. A card with crappy hardware might last just over a year under normal gaming load but when stressed, they could crap out in a month. A card with good hardware shouldn't care if it was stressed for a year or five years.

Where's the evidence that this card that survived a month was ever used for mining?
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