Friday, May 22nd 2020

AMD Readies 3rd Gen Ryzen "Matisse Refresh" Ryzen 7 3850X and 3750X Processors

AMD is planning to immediately update its product stack to counter the Intel 10th gen Core "Comet Lake-S" desktop processor family. Codenamed "Matisse Refresh," the processor will use existing IP, based on the 7 nm "Zen 2" microarchitecture, but could improve in areas such as clock-speeds. As it now stands, the Ryzen 9 3900X appears unfazed by the i9-10900K and i7-10700K at its new $410 price, however, competitiveness of the 3800X and 3700X could buckle under pressure from the i7-10700 series (K, KF, non-K, and F), as well as the Core i5-10600 series. To this effect, we're hearing rumors of a "Ryzen 7 3750X" and "Ryzen 7 3850X" seeing the light of the day soon, with an early-June announcement, and early-July market availability. References to the 3750X date back to October 2019.

Rumors of "Matisse Refresh" gained traction when WCCFTech editor Hassan Mujtaba tweeted a slide from a GIGABYTE AMD B550 motherboard series pre-launch presentation, which references GIGABYTE's own interpretation of AMD's roadmap. It lists out every CPU microarchitecture for the AM4 platform, and right next to "Matisse" is "& Refresh," confirming that "Matisse Refresh" is real. A microarchitecture "refresh" needn't even involve any physical changes to the processor design, core-counts, or architecture, and can sometimes even indicate something as simple as a second major wave of SKUs that replace existing SKUs in the market, leading to their phase-out (eg: Intel "Haswell Refresh" retaining the 4th gen Core model numbering). The slide also adds weight to the theory that desktop "Renoir," like its mobile counterpart, lacks PCIe gen 4.0. The slide also talks about AMD introducing the entry-level A520 desktop chipset in August, which will support PCIe gen 4 when paired with a capable processor.
Sources: Hassan Mujtaba (Twitter), VideoCardz, HXL aka 9550pro (Twitter)
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62 Comments on AMD Readies 3rd Gen Ryzen "Matisse Refresh" Ryzen 7 3850X and 3750X Processors

#1
TheLostSwede
Ah yes, this is what I've been hinting at for a little while, so I can confirm this is real, if nothing else.
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#2
Assimilator
TheLostSwede
Ah yes, this is what I've been hinting at for a little while, so I can confirm this is real, if nothing else.
Core counts?
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#3
TheLostSwede
Assimilator
Core counts?
Sorry, don't know, I only knew it was coming.
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#4
M2B
Probably (4+0) + (4+0) core configuration instead of (4+4) config of the 3700X & 3800X for better gaming performance.
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#5
R0H1T
Who says AMD doesn't have a sense of humor, they do an Intel one day (locking previous gen motherboards from getting zen3 support) to AMD the next & now back to Intel again o_O

If this refresh doesn't bring a substantial speed bump it's just pointless IMO :shadedshu:
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#6
kapone32
TheLostSwede
Ah yes, this is what I've been hinting at for a little while, so I can confirm this is real, if nothing else.
One could say it was expected. The Fall is too long to have a response to 10th Gen. AMD had to be launching something with B550 other than Quad cores. I wonder what price the 3800X and 3700X could fall to? An 8 core single CCX looks nice though for real.
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#7
R0H1T
kapone32
It depends. if it does have a nice speed bump all processors in it's area of price should drop in value. I agree with M2b though as Gaming is the only thing that AMD is (arguably) 2nd at.
If zen3 is on track, this move looks less & logical, at least to me.
Pardon the frequent updates
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#8
kapone32
R0H1T
Updated previous post :p

It depends. if it does have a nice speed bump all processors in it's area of price should drop in value. I agree with M2b though as Gaming is the only thing that AMD is (arguably) 2nd at.
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#9
Fouquin
R0H1T
Who says AMD doesn't have a sense of humor, they do an Intel one day (locking previous gen motherboards from getting zen3 support) to AMD the next & now back to Intel again o_O
implying somehow that refreshing a platform is uniquely an Intel practice.
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#10
R0H1T
Well no not really, but the timing & need seem to escape my "sense" of logic not to mention they really don't have to do this unless they've really binned these chips &/or improved the process to get (much?) better clocks.
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#11
kapone32
R0H1T
If zen3 is on track, this move looks less & logical, at least to me.
Pardon the frequent updates

Well it's for right now. Social Media sells CPUs too. You have to have something relevant when the competition has a splash. This is not a new practice anyway.
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#12
btarunr
Editor & Senior Moderator
This could be weapons-grade enriched bovine defecation that puts out over 9000 Rontgen, but what the hell.

A few weeks ago, a fairly reliable source sent me a "slide" he sketched up on mspaint looking at another slide. It talked about 8-core dual-CCD chips (two 4+0 CCX chiplets). The idea being reduced thermal density and double the I/O bandwidth per core to the cIOD vs current single-CCD packages; and freeing up clock-speed headroom per CCD to drive boost clocks around the 5 GHz mark. Something excruciatingly hard for Zen 2 to begin with.

I have serious doubts about this. For one, such an approach could affect performance of games that scale beyond 8 threads. It will also drive up costs for AMD, unless it's sitting on a pile of 4+0 CCDs capable of reaching 5 GHz.

Now the theory of 3850X being a 4+4 single CCD chip that's clocked to hell with increased power limits, seems more credible.

I'll put my money on single CCD 4+4.
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#13
Chomiq
Do we really need a new sku when Zen 3 is just around the corner?
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#14
kapone32
btarunr
This could be weapons-grade enriched bovine defecation that puts out over 9000 Rontgen, but what the hell.

A few weeks ago, a fairly reliable source sent me a "slide" he sketched up on mspaint looking at another slide. It talked about 8-core dual-CCD chips (two 4+0 CCX chiplets). The idea being reduced thermal density and double the I/O bandwidth per core to the cIOD vs current single-CCD packages; and freeing up clock-speed headroom per CCD to drive boost clocks around the 5 GHz mark.

I have serious doubts about this. For one, such an approach could affect performance of games that scale beyond 8 threads. It will also drive up costs for AMD, unless it's sitting on a pile of 4+0 CCDs capable of reaching 5 GHz.

Now the theory of 3850X being a 4+4 single CCD chip that's clocked to hell with increased power limits, seems more credible.

I'll put my money on single CCD 4+4.
Well I was going to get a 3300 for my B550 but everything just got a little more confusing.
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#15
btarunr
Editor & Senior Moderator
kapone32
Well I was going to get a 3300 for my B550 but everything just got a little more confusing.
Many current gen games can take advantage of >8 threads, but they don't lose too much performance when given just 8 threads. If you give an "unaware" game 16 threads in a 4+0+4+0 setup, it will just assume all cores are in the same place. Windows 10 scheduler since 1803 mitigates much of this unawareness.

tl;dr: go ahead and buy that 3300X, it's a solid gaming CPU (source: any 3300X review).
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#16
sutyi
btarunr
This could be weapons-grade enriched bovine defecation that puts out over 9000 Rontgen, but what the hell.

A few weeks ago, a fairly reliable source sent me a "slide" he sketched up on mspaint looking at another slide. It talked about 8-core dual-CCD chips (two 4+0 CCX chiplets). The idea being reduced thermal density and double the I/O bandwidth per core to the cIOD vs current single-CCD packages; and freeing up clock-speed headroom per CCD to drive boost clocks around the 5 GHz mark. Something excruciatingly hard for Zen 2 to begin with.

I have serious doubts about this. For one, such an approach could affect performance of games that scale beyond 8 threads. It will also drive up costs for AMD, unless it's sitting on a pile of 4+0 CCDs capable of reaching 5 GHz.

Now the theory of 3850X being a 4+4 single CCD chip that's clocked to hell with increased power limits, seems more credible.

I'll put my money on single CCD 4+4.
Considering the 3300X is 4+0 and that can clock fairly well, I can see higher clocked bins of 4+0 CCDs going into 3750X/3850Xs.

Unless these are the test vehicle for 7nm EUV, and the better process allowing for higher clocks.
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#17
kapone32
btarunr
Many current gen games can take advantage of >8 threads, but they don't lose too much performance with just 8 threads. If you give an "unaware" game 16 threads in a 4+0+4+0 setup, it will just assume all cores are in the same place. Windows thread scheduler since 1803 mitigate much of this unawareness.

tl;dr: go ahead and buy that 3300X (source: any 3300X review).
For me it is more than Gaming though. I am interested in the proposition of a binned 3800. I might actually be able to get one too as the 3300x is not available in Canada right now. Not even Amazon lists it.
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#18
TheLostSwede
Chomiq
Do we really be a new sku when Zen 3 is just around the corner?
Is it though? Rumours say end of Q3 early Q4 announcement, but who knows how long until availability.
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#19
LocutusH
Chomiq
Do we really be a new sku when Zen 3 is just around the corner?
Well, it probably isnt.
If they announce it, that will be in september at the earliest. Wide availablity and calmed down prices probably not before november. So if the Matisse Refresh is coming right now, it makes sense.
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#20
ARF
R0H1T
If zen3 is on track, this move looks less & logical, at least to me.
Chomiq
Do we really need a new sku when Zen 3 is just around the corner?
Fixed the word "be" with "need".
I agree with you that these are absolutely pointless and shooting in the feet for AMD.
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#21
HwGeek
I also think it could be Dual chiplet, or maybe they started to use N7P process? who knows what are they using for the new high frequency Epycs- maybe N7P too?
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#22
theGryphon
It's very possible that AMD is sitting on a pile of 4+0 CCDs that won't do 6+0 (at least at meaningful clocks). Some of those will go to 3300X but then these new parts would be a great way of utilizing them.

So, I think both will happen: 1) 4+0 CCDs in these parts 2) with higher clocks and possibly higher TDP.

Think about that last bit. Intel is pushing power limits to sky high and AMD is tying own hands at 105W. At least 3850X can possibly come out at 125W to push the gaming performance to the max while still being more power efficient than competitive Intel parts. They actually should do it.
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#23
ratirt
ARF
I agree with you that these are absolutely pointless and shooting in the feet for AMD.
I'm not so sure it is pointless. AMD might be showing that the 3000 series CPUs got even more potential than we thought. They want to counter Intel's 10th gen with already released products by binning, tweaks. It would seem, AMD doesn't even have to pull out the big guns to fight Intel's 10th gen. That's kinda cool though. Is AMD holding the 3rd gen for nailing Intel's coffin?
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#24
ARF
3 months before the release of Ryzen 4000, it is absolutely pointless to bring salvaged parts.
Better bring Renoir with higher performance.
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#25
Chomiq
ARF
Fixed the word "be" with "need".
I agree with you that these are absolutely pointless and shooting in the feet for AMD.
Yeah thanks, typing on the phone is a PITA.
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