Wednesday, December 28th 2016

Soon: Kaby Lake-based Systems Carrying Intel Optane Solutions

Lenovo has recently released the specifications for their 2017 Thinkpad series line-up, with several models (T470p, L470, L570, T470, T570, X270 and Yoga 370) featuring the usual, evolutionary hardware improvements, such as being equipped with Intel's latest generation Kaby Lake processors and increased screen resolutions. However, one of the hardware announcements for the new Thinkpad series goes a little further than your usual, run-of-the-mill updates: these solutions will feature what is expected to be the first consumer-level adaptations of Intel's Optane technology.
The Optane-based solutions will essentially act as caching devices, offering up to 16GB Optane SSDs in M.2 2242 form factor, which will be paired with hard drives (as a supposedly higher-performing, higher-storage capacity solution than the alternative of using a single NVMe SSD with NAND flash memory). The new Intel Optane devices mentioned by Lenovo in the product specs are most likely the codenamed Stony Beach NVMe PCIe 3 x2 drives. These are expected to be branded as the Intel Optane Memory 8000p series, with a maximum capacity ceiling at 32GB in addition to the 16GB Lenovo will be using.

The new generation of ThinkPads will be hitting the market in January and February 2017, but Lenovo and Intel haven't indicated when the configurations with Optane will be available. However, considering reports of delays in the 3D XPoint technology time-to-market, actual products featuring the technology may be further away than the revised, 2017 Thinkpad lineup release.Source: AnandTech
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26 Comments on Soon: Kaby Lake-based Systems Carrying Intel Optane Solutions

#1
RejZoR
So, we are finally at a point where there is no separation of RAM and storage memory. It's now all the same. You can have 500GB of RAM and 500GB of storage at once. The more programs you have open, the less storage memory you have to store data. The more data you have stored, the less it can be used for resident apps. It also finally makes pagefile/swap entirely redundant. That's the theoretical part. The realistic part is they "ceiling" at 32GB which is rubbish for today's standards. Even for a low end tablet device.
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#2
HopelesslyFaithful
RejZoR said:
So, we are finally at a point where there is no separation of RAM and storage memory. It's now all the same. You can have 500GB of RAM and 500GB of storage at once. The more programs you have open, the less storage memory you have to store data. The more data you have stored, the less it can be used for resident apps. It also finally makes pagefile/swap entirely redundant. That's the theoretical part. The realistic part is they "ceiling" at 32GB which is rubbish for today's standards. Even for a low end tablet device.
again...no...optane is not a memory. It is a cache like NAND was 10 years ago but will eventually hopefully become a replacement for NAND (as a OS/program drive) when costs come down.

Again how are people this fucking dense and keep saying this shit. -_- Intel has never said this shit rejzor is saying and flatout said this is not its purpose.

I have seen you post many times and you can't possible believe what you just posted....or should i say i cant believe that actually came out of your mouth (figuratively)


XPoint is no where near as fast as RAM.I don't even think it beat SDRAM in latency. It would be total shit as RAM but will be God as OS/Program storage once it becomes affordable.If they can get to the $2 per GB pricing like it should be according to intel I will gladly get a 500-1000GB drive as OS/programs.

5-10 years from now we will have 64-128GB of RAM 500-1000GB XPoint and NAND as mass storage with HDDs for archiving/long term storage. as a standard set up
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#3
RejZoR
Again, yes... Look at the bottom left corner of the image (Transforming the Memory Hierarchy)...

EDIT:
Itt doesn't have to be as fast. You're not shuffling data around from one medium to another through garbage interconnections, you're reading/processing and storing it in the same medium.
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#4
MarkR
I would never own a laptop or tablet with a hard disk drive, never.
Even my desktop's secondary storage drive will be replaced this year with solid state.
It's not just about performance, it's reliability, power and heat.
.. And hybrid drives are evil.
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#5
RejZoR
Hybrid drives aren't evil, they are just designed in the most stupid way. 8GB cache. Seriously? I had such cache on my software byased hybrid config like 3 years ago. I don't get it why they can't stick at least 16GB or even better 32GB SSD. In that case, they'd be awesome. But with 8GB, it's just enough to make benchmarks look all nice, but in real use, they are worthless.
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#6
trog100
RejZoR said:
So, we are finally at a point where there is no separation of RAM and storage memory. It's now all the same. You can have 500GB of RAM and 500GB of storage at once. The more programs you have open, the less storage memory you have to store data. The more data you have stored, the less it can be used for resident apps. It also finally makes pagefile/swap entirely redundant. That's the theoretical part. The realistic part is they "ceiling" at 32GB which is rubbish for today's standards. Even for a low end tablet device.
given enough ram windows swap file has been entirely redundant for years.. mine is turned off and has been for years..

trog
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#7
RejZoR
Not in auto mode. You have to do that manually.
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#8
iO
Hybrid drives were always just a crappy workaround back then when high capacity SSDs were too expensive or simply non-existent, so why bother trying to revive it?
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#9
peche
Thermaltake fanboy
i'll swap my mechanic games drive next year for a big ass SSD, cause the same listed reasons, heat, efficiency and consumption, ill look for the cheap 400GB or moar, but he little ones like 60 or 120 GB are great for OS + couple o daily programs...
also i wish i could get an M.2 SSD for my future skylake build!

Regards,
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#10
EarthDog
RejZoR said:
Not in auto mode. You have to do that manually.
And it can be a bad idea for some. Clearly it's working for trog, but, for many, it isn't a good idea.. especially considering how much ram we have anyways, so little even goes there.

To save space on my ssd and trouble, I force the size to 2GB min/max.

I see a lot of users here hanging on to old school things that had tangible benefits a decade ago.. these days, they don't matter. What's next.. ram scrubbers? Speed fan again (I know it works still..barely)?
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#11
Fx
Those specs appear underwhelming. I would be interested to see some benchmarks of that setup except with an SSD over the HDD compared to a Thinkpad with RAM and SSD.
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#12
TheGuruStud
trog100 said:
given enough ram windows swap file has been entirely redundant for years.. mine is turned off and has been for years..

trog
Yep, I haven't used it since 8GB of ram. And you definitely want to turn it off with SSD as your OS drive (assuming it's left default).
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#13
eidairaman1
EarthDog said:
And it can be a bad idea for some. Clearly it's working for trog, but, for many, it isn't a good idea.. especially considering how much ram we have anyways, so little even goes there.

To save space on my ssd and trouble, I force the size to 2GB min/max.

I see a lot of users here hanging on to old school things that had tangible benefits a decade ago.. these days, they don't matter. What's next.. ram scrubbers? Speed fan again (I know it works still..barely)?
I Set Paging/Swap to 4096MB and leave it there no expanding or contracting.
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#14
trog100
peche said:
i'll swap my mechanic games drive next year for a big ass SSD, cause the same listed reasons, heat, efficiency and consumption, ill look for the cheap 400GB or moar, but he little ones like 60 or 120 GB are great for OS + couple o daily programs...
also i wish i could get an M.2 SSD for my future skylake build!

Regards,
my windows 10 operating system (no swapfile) occupies 31 gig of my 128 ssd system drive..

i dont install games on it or use it for storage but its loaded with tons of programs i dont just put everyday stuff on it..

windows 10 will happily sit on a cheap as chips small 64 gig SSD.. there isnt much point in not having one as a system drive and as a back up clone it to another cheap SSD.. keep it reasonably up to date and if your system drive ever does f-ck up (for whatever reason) pop the spare one in..

trog
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#15
MarkR
trog100 said:
my windows 10 operating system (no swapfile) occupies 31 gig of my 128 ssd system drive..

i dont install games on it or use it for storage but its loaded with tons of programs i dont just put everyday stuff on it..

windows 10 will happily sit on a cheap as chips small 64 gig SSD.. there isnt much point in not having one as a system drive and as a back up clone it to another cheap SSD.. keep it reasonably up to date and if your system drive ever does f-ck up (for whatever reason) pop the spare one in..

trog
If you have a secondary drive, 120 gig is fine. As a SSD only system, 250 is better.

I love M.2, remember that there are basic sata speed versions and your "Pro" speed versions.
I did read somewhere that B150 boards with M.2 is limited to SATA speeds, can someone point to that article please

I still use Hard Disks but I plug them in to a caddy, I use them for archiving, backups, -and for important stuff I will have two drives that I copy stuff to individually cause it's not if, it's when the drive will fail.
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#16
EarthDog
TheGuruStud said:
Yep, I haven't used it since 8GB of ram. And you definitely want to turn it off with SSD as your OS drive (assuming it's left default).
Why?

(writes aren't a worry... they haven't been for a few generations of ssds...)
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#17
HopelesslyFaithful
RejZoR said:
Again, yes... Look at the bottom left corner of the image (Transforming the Memory Hierarchy)...

EDIT:
Itt doesn't have to be as fast. You're not shuffling data around from one medium to another through garbage interconnections, you're reading/processing and storing it in the same medium.
thats talking about hybrid memory modules not replacing RAM. Your first comment was about replacing RAM which is never happening. That left corner refers to XPoint DIMMs which are just like ULTRADIMMs....seriously? Do you ignore everything you read? This has been stated in nearly every Intel press release on this subject yet people keep spewing this garbage.

You must be trolling.....
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#18
HopelesslyFaithful
RejZoR said:
Hybrid drives aren't evil, they are just designed in the most stupid way. 8GB cache. Seriously? I had such cache on my software byased hybrid config like 3 years ago. I don't get it why they can't stick at least 16GB or even better 32GB SSD. In that case, they'd be awesome. But with 8GB, it's just enough to make benchmarks look all nice, but in real use, they are worthless.
The issue is programming and a lack of communication between various elements. Hybrid drives would be great especially in NASs if the OS and RAID array could utilize the entire system.

The other issue is the NAND is limited to 190MBps which isn't even fast but decent good for small files.


If a RAID array system could utilize (image a 24 bay system) 128GB of RAM, 24*32GB (768GB of NAND) and 144TB of HDDs properly it could be substantially faster.

The problem is programs like RAIDZ and SnapRAID cant control the NAND inside the harddrives and it is limited to a very crappy algorithm that is not very smart.


Also the hybrid drives are really shitty 5400/7200RPM drives. Put that NAND on a 300MBps HGST and make it integrate with OS/programs to allow better utilization and you have one fast system.

MarkR said:
If you have a secondary drive, 120 gig is fine. As a SSD only system, 250 is better.

I love M.2, remember that there are basic sata speed versions and your "Pro" speed versions.
I did read somewhere that B150 boards with M.2 is limited to SATA speeds, can someone point to that article please

I still use Hard Disks but I plug them in to a caddy, I use them for archiving, backups, -and for important stuff I will have two drives that I copy stuff to individually cause it's not if, it's when the drive will fail.
128GB and 256GB are shit due to very bad steady state/mix work load and are inherently slower. I really dont get why people buy those. I always get bad hangs on those systems because the SSD eats shit. Hell my 480GB Extreme Pro was noticeable slower in daily use (this was with 25% OP) vs my 512GB 950 PRO with 0% OP. Granted the Extreme Pro never hanged like my 840 but i still noticed games stop downloading because it was still try to catch up on the installing. The system also each shit whenever more than 1 task dried to access the hard drive at once. The Extreme Pro was also the best SSD for mix and steady state back than. We still have plenty of room to grow....who uses 128/256GB drives...ugh

EarthDog said:
Why?

(writes aren't a worry... they haven't been for a few generations of ssds...)
Writes are a worry if you don't want to blast past your warranty........When i lived off a laptop and an SSD too small (480GB with 25% OP ~380GB IIRC). I burned through 150GB of writes and 500GB? of reads a day.... I also only did normal geeky stuff,, downloading, playing games, office, movies, photos......
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#19
buggalugs
Why would Intel call it Optane which sounds very similar to OCZ/Toshiba Octane SSD's
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#20
EarthDog
HopelesslyFaithful said:



Writes are a worry if you don't want to blast past your warranty........When i lived off a laptop and an SSD too small (480GB with 25% OP ~380GB IIRC). I burned through 150GB of writes and 500GB? of reads a day.... I also only did normal geeky stuff,, downloading, playing games, office, movies, photos......
150GB of writes per day?? Riiiiiight. Reads don't matter to drive life anyway.
Posted on Reply
#21
MarkR
HopelesslyFaithful said:
128GB and 256GB are shit due to very bad steady state/mix work load and are inherently slower. I really dont get why people buy those. I always get bad hangs on those systems because the SSD eats shit. Hell my 480GB Extreme Pro was noticeable slower in daily use (this was with 25% OP) vs my 512GB 950 PRO with 0% OP. Granted the Extreme Pro never hanged like my 840 but i still noticed games stop downloading because it was still try to catch up on the installing. The system also each shit whenever more than 1 task dried to access the hard drive at once. The Extreme Pro was also the best SSD for mix and steady state back than. We still have plenty of room to grow....who uses 128/256GB drives...ugh
If you had to choose between 500gig HDD and a 128SSD in a laptop - what would you do?

Of course a 256 is better, and if your into gaming or want top end performance, go the best 512 you can get, but for my clients that want a basic business machine: cheaper SSD-256 on a B150 board. (not shit, just horses for courses).

Anyway, the thing is that I will not have a HDD in a laptop or tablet, hybrid or not, also the article was about the Intel Optane which may be a really good thing in the future, just not the above system for me.
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#22
HopelesslyFaithful
EarthDog said:
150GB of writes per day?? Riiiiiight. Reads don't matter to drive life anyway.
Well i tried to google for it. I have it posted all over the place in various forums on endurance of SSDs and how steady state and mix loads are important. If you do any legitimate amount of usage. I have it in my server now so the the average per day is not the same since it hasnt done much in years. Its been idle for a couple years now but has 47.22TB of writes and 155TB of reads. I thought i had a screenie of it but can't find it so might be buried in archives.

Also reads are important to understand mix loads and what your system actually tries to do in a single day. If i averaged 150GB writes and 500GB of reads in a 24 hour on period most of that usage is in large batches and mostly mixed for me.

ripping 2-3 movies, some background AV/AM, playing a game or loading programs while rippings plus coping files. The 840 would actually hang and PC woudl freeze because the steady state on the 840 was total shit especially in mix work loads even with OP. I almost never had a hang from my Extreme Pro and never with my 950 PRO and my 950 PRO allows me to do more at once.

Really curious where i have those screenies saved.....fuk it i'll turn my server on...ops i forgot i need to fix snapraid and everything is still encrypted from when i went to Asia for 2 months in october. I'll have to check later :/
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#23
Frick
Fishfaced Nincompoop
HopelesslyFaithful said:
Well i tried to google for it. I have it posted all over the place in various forums on endurance of SSDs and how steady state and mix loads are important. If you do any legitimate amount of usage. I have it in my server now so the the average per day is not the same since it hasnt done much in years. Its been idle for a couple years now but has 47.22TB of writes and 155TB of reads. I thought i had a screenie of it but can't find it so might be buried in archives.

Also reads are important to understand mix loads and what your system actually tries to do in a single day. If i averaged 150GB writes and 500GB of reads in a 24 hour on period most of that usage is in large batches and mostly mixed for me.

ripping 2-3 movies, some background AV/AM, playing a game or loading programs while rippings plus coping files. The 840 would actually hang and PC woudl freeze because the steady state on the 840 was total shit especially in mix work loads even with OP. I almost never had a hang from my Extreme Pro and never with my 950 PRO and my 950 PRO allows me to do more at once.

Really curious where i have those screenies saved.....fuk it i'll turn my server on...ops i forgot i need to fix snapraid and everything is still encrypted from when i went to Asia for 2 months in october. I'll have to check later :/
Then a program has issues. Are you running Spotiy, by chance?
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#24
HopelesslyFaithful
Frick said:
Then a program has issues. Are you running Spotiy, by chance?
nope just game installs, regular usage, moving files and stuff like that. Also it was a laptop some of it was hibernations but when i stopped hibernating i still was at 100GB per day vs 150GB per day on average and reads were basically the same.

When i switched to a desktop i was still at 100GB per day overall with some days 10 or 20GB and others near 400GB in a day or something ridiculous. any day i messed with my camera resulted in 100s of GB due to various things with moving files editing, swaping them out, and caching in PS.

Also being limited to 480GB resulted in lots of game swaping.

I also always moved files to SSD before using them, which results in more wear too. Move files to SSD go pee come back and do what i needed.
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#25
EarthDog
HopelesslyFaithful said:
Well i tried to google for it. I have it posted all over the place in various forums on endurance of SSDs and how steady state and mix loads are important. If you do any legitimate amount of usage. I have it in my server now so the the average per day is not the same since it hasnt done much in years. Its been idle for a couple years now but has 47.22TB of writes and 155TB of reads. I thought i had a screenie of it but can't find it so might be buried in archives.

Also reads are important to understand mix loads and what your system actually tries to do in a single day. If i averaged 150GB writes and 500GB of reads in a 24 hour on period most of that usage is in large batches and mostly mixed for me.

ripping 2-3 movies, some background AV/AM, playing a game or loading programs while rippings plus coping files. The 840 would actually hang and PC woudl freeze because the steady state on the 840 was total shit especially in mix work loads even with OP. I almost never had a hang from my Extreme Pro and never with my 950 PRO and my 950 PRO allows me to do more at once.

Really curious where i have those screenies saved.....fuk it i'll turn my server on...ops i forgot i need to fix snapraid and everything is still encrypted from when i went to Asia for 2 months in october. I'll have to check later :/
well... put it this way... you are one of 10000 who can manage to average 100gb /day writes. Most dont come anywhere close to that...like a couple gb at best is a regular user. You are an exception with your usage model, clearly.

Again, writes on any remotely modern ssd are not an issue for 95% of users..and certainly not because of the page file. Now let's move past my sole, elementary point. :)
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