Friday, October 9th 2020

AMD Big Navi Performance Claims Compared to TPU's Own Benchmark Numbers of Comparable GPUs

AMD in its October 8 online launch event for the Ryzen 5000 "Zen 3" processors, provided a teaser of the company's next flagship graphics card slotted in the Radeon RX 6000 series. This particular SKU has been referred to by company CEO Lisa Su as "Big Navi," meaning it could be the top part from AMD's upcoming client GPU lineup. As part of the teaser, Su held up the reference design card, and provided three performance numbers of the card as tested on a machine powered by a Ryzen 9 5900X "Zen 3" processor. We compared these performance numbers, obtained at 4K UHD, with our own testing data for the games, to see how the card compares to other current-gen cards in its class. Our testing data for one of the games is from the latest RTX 30-series reviews, find details of our test bed here. We obviously have a different CPU since the 5900X is unreleased, but use the highest presets in our testing.

With "Borderlands 3" at 4K, with "badass" performance preset and DirectX 12 renderer, AMD claims a frame-rate of 61 FPS. We tested the game with its DirectX 12 renderer in our dedicated performance review (test bed details here). AMD's claimed performance ends up 45.9 percent higher than that of the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti as tested by us, which yields 41.8 FPS on our test bed. The RTX 3080 ends up 15.24 percent faster than Big Navi, with 70.3 FPS. It's important to note here that AMD may be using a different/lighter test scene than us, since we don't use internal benchmark tools of games, and design our own test scenes. It's also important to note that we tested Borderlands 3 with DirectX 12 only in the game's launch-day review, and use the DirectX 11 renderer in our regular VGA reviews.
With Gears 5, AMD claims performance of 73 FPS at 4K, with its DirectX 12 renderer, with the "Ultra" preset. This number ends up 16.24 percent faster than that of the RTX 2080 Ti, which scores 62.8 FPS on our test bed. The RTX 3080 is 15.61 percent faster than the AMD card, at 84.4 FPS.

Call of Duty: Modern Warfare was never added to our VGA review test selection, but we tested the game separately at launch (find its test bed information here). In this testing, we found the RTX 2080 Ti to score 77.9 FPS at Ultra Settings, with RTX-off. In comparison, AMD claims Big Navi scores 88 FPS, making it 12.96 percent faster.

We know this is a very coarse and unscientific way to compare AMD's numbers to ours, and AMD has probably cherry-picked games that are most optimized to its GPUs, but it lends plausibility to a theory that Big Navi may end up comparable to the RTX 2080 Ti, and trade blows with the upcoming RTX 3070, which NVIDIA claims outperforms the RTX 2080 Ti. The RX 6000 "Big Navi" ends up with a geometric mean of 21% higher frame-rates than the RTX 2080 Ti in these three tests, which would imply almost double the performance of the RX 5700 XT. Big Navi is rumored to feature double the CUs as the the RX 5700 XT, so the claims somewhat line up.
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262 Comments on AMD Big Navi Performance Claims Compared to TPU's Own Benchmark Numbers of Comparable GPUs

#76
Franzen4Real
neatfeatguy
When the 3080 launched, Borderlands 3 was benched with it, but only in DX11. It says so above the charts on the 3080 review for the Borderlands 3 game, just go here and read for yourself or click the spoiler button below.

Borderlands 3 is brought to life with Unreal Engine 4, which takes advantage of DirectX 12 and Direct X 11 with some AMD-specific features, such as FidelityFX. In our testing, we used DirectX 11 because the DirectX 12 renderer has extremely long loading times and some instability. We will switch to the new renderer once these issues are ironed out.

AMD showed that their "Big Navi" card was running 61FPS in DX12 for Borderlands 3.
TPU has not ran the 3080 in DX12 for Borderlands 3. They only ran DX11 and that is the benchmark that shows 70.3 FPS.
And, couple that fact with this statement from OP "It's important to note here that AMD may be using a different/lighter test scene than us, since we don't use internal benchmark tools of games, and design our own test scenes."
We now have a bench that rendered a completely different scene and on a different API. I didn't realize that when first seeing the slides on the live stream. So now we are essentially comparing apples to baseballs. Sure, they are both round, but...
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#77
kapone32
nguyen
Then why bother show anything at all. These FPS figures are useless by themselves.

"Hey let just bench the lightest scenes in these games, get some useless FPS numbers to hype our product." - AMD CEO to PR guys

Sure that worked out well for Polaris and Vega, just some bullshit numbers here and there until the actual release and then boom yeah our GPUs are so bad, we are selling them for almost nothing.
To stir excitement. This is the official notification to the public that these are coming and what you can expect. You also so do not know what scenes they used as there is no video in existence of those benchmarks. I don't know why you are quoting architecture from before 7nm (Vega 7 excluded) when even the 5600XT competes with the Vega 64. Just because we have been pining for information on Big Navi means that it will be a fail.
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#78
Arpeegee
People must either be in denial or lack good analytical skills if you think AMD would show their BEST card at a CPU event when they have a GPU event at the end of the month.

They've been mum on details all year with Navi and if I were to place a bet I would think the performance is closer to the RTX 3080 then people want to admit. People also need to keep in mind that even if it doesn't absolutely win over the 3080, if it's priced $100 cheaper than the "MSRP $699" then Nvidia has lost this battle. No regular person would pay $100-$200 more for only 5% to 10% better performance with a power hungry card (though the RTX 3090 sales kinda undermine my point :p).
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#79
DuxCro
I hope the availability of 6000 series will be a lot better than RTX 3000 series. Can't find them anywhere. And those launch prices are also imaginary. Can't find a store listing in EU for RTX 3080 below €800
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#81
Jism
They did very well; we got competition.
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#82
theoneandonlymrk
Honestly, this is a bit apples to mystery bananary, Tpu used an Intel platform.
Hopefully this was the cut down big Navi, still big Navi but not s big
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#83
Nkd
I have seen numbers all over the place. TPU review is the only one getting 80+ in gears 5 at 4k. Redgaming tech showed video of his benchmark with 3080 he was a 75 at ultra with 10900k overclocked, and its similar at other reviews. Not sure what settings or map you are testing but AMD is just giving benchmark numbers here on built in benchmark and it seems to get with in spitting distance in both borderlands 3 and gears 5 when you run the same built in benchmarks on 3080. Call of duty is up for debates because I have seen the numbers in the 80s and 120s probably due to maps people are testing.
Arpeegee
People must either be in denial or lack good analytical skills if you think AMD would show their BEST card at a CPU event when they have a GPU event at the end of the month.

They've been mum on details all year with Navi and if I were to place a bet I would think the performance is closer to the RTX 3080 then people want to admit. People also need to keep in mind that even if it doesn't absolutely win over the 3080, if it's priced $100 cheaper than the "MSRP $699" then Nvidia has lost this battle. No regular person would pay $100-$200 more for only 5% to 10% better performance with a power hungry card (though the RTX 3090 sales kinda undermine my point :p).
Actually most reviews it matches 3080 in borderlands 3 and gears 5. It really boils down to maps and shit but these are straight form built in benchmark and 2080 it is in the 60s and 70s in both borderland 3 bad ass and gears 5 ultra benchmark.

Also my mind tells me this is not the biggest navi. I don't know if they will show the best on CPU event then have nothing special for GPU event. This might be the 72 CU part right under 3080 that is in between 3070 and 3080 (more closer to 3080 then 3070) and then one with 80CU another 10-15% or so on top.
kayjay010101
Yeah... as you say yourself, comparing between two different benchmark passes means nothing. You'd have to have the least amount of variables possible, including using the exact same benchmark pass. It seemed like they used the internal benchmark in their presentation, so comparing to your own custom route in the game isn't a valid form of comparison.

And this might not be the top SKU. A lot of other news publications have stated AMD stressed to them that they didn't tell which SKU this was, which to me seems like they're trying to imply it's not the top dog.
THIS! Internal benchmarks show it closer to 3080 on both bordlerlands 3 and gears 5. Call of duty is depending on seen and would have to wait for reviews.
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#84
Vayra86
TheLostSwede
Personally I think it would be a bad move by AMD to show it's full hand this early, as it potentially allows Nvidia to make adjustments. I guess it might be too late for that though, but who knows. Even so, all we can do for now is to speculate. That said, I doubt AMD will have a product that beats the RTX 3080, but I could be wrong.
I don't think Nvidia gets the news from TPU headlines though, or r/AMD.

I think Nvidia already knows mostly what they'll be getting, and I reckon this is part of the reason 3070 is priced at 500.

Between 3070~3080 range perf... as expected, as predicted, and not a bad result at all. Price will make it count, as usual. Same shit different day...yep.
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#85
lynx29
jesdals
I could live with that if the price is belowe the 3080
and in stock. lol im sure AMD will undercut nvidia on price for gpu market they have to to make up for their navi driver debacle.

i probably will get big navi. i might get a 3070, honestly, it all depends who lets me check out and ships first. lol so many scalpers, we will be lucky to get anything this year, ps5, etc etc etc its sad the industry has not figured out a better way to stop scalpers, and limit buyers to 1.
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#86
ador250
If it's around 5% slower than 3080 now, then it will eventually be 5% faster with mature driver in later. Plus, there is no way Lisa Su will show their top dog this early, it's literally a jebait. If it's a 64 or 72CU card then it's GG for Nvidia.
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#87
sergionography
Franzen4Real
And, couple that fact with this statement from OP "It's important to note here that AMD may be using a different/lighter test scene than us, since we don't use internal benchmark tools of games, and design our own test scenes."
We now have a bench that rendered a completely different scene and on a different API. I didn't realize that when first seeing the slides on the live stream. So now we are essentially comparing apples to baseballs. Sure, they are both round, but...
I have checked online and noticed that Techpowerup has higher fps averages on some of the games compared to other websites, and I couldn't understand why that was the case until today. Most use the internal benchmark suites that come with the games and that's most likely what AMD did. If you take that into consideration the. Yes, this whole article is useless and misleading
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#88
lynx29
AMD did trick nvidia last time, they duped them on a couple things if I recall correctly. On pricing. so it is possible this isn't their top dog card. lol we will see soon enough
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#89
TheLostSwede
Vayra86
I don't think Nvidia gets the news from TPU headlines though, or r/AMD.

I think Nvidia already knows mostly what they'll be getting, and I reckon this is part of the reason 3070 is priced at 500.

Between 3070~3080 range perf... as expected, as predicted, and not a bad result at all. Price will make it count, as usual. Same shit different day...yep.
Are you saying Nvidia has an insider at AMD? As that is what it sounds like. Industrial espionage is illegal in the US afaik.
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#90
Vayra86
TheLostSwede
Are you saying Nvidia has an insider at AMD? As that is what it sounds like. Industrial espionage is illegal in the US afaik.
I think they get enough information and have enough insight to make a pretty educated guess.
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#91
RedelZaVedno
2080TI +21% is not bad at all, IF pricing is right. IF AMD makes 12GB and 16GB variants and price them $499 and $549, it would be blast of a launch. On the other hand IF AMD decides to be greedy like with Zen3 announcement and price them $649 and $699, then it's gonna be DOA. Remember Radeon 7 debacle, competing with 1080TI 2 years later and charging $700? I'm afraid AMD will shoot itself in the foot once more and go with the suicidal greed option. I can still remember Lisa trying to sell us Polaris replacement (Navi 1) for 499 first and then for 449.
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#92
Shatun_Bear
Videocardz guy (reliable), Moore'sLawisDead and some others are saying AMD have a card above the one demonstrated at the Ryzen 5000 reveal, this is likely ready for Q1 next year or later. October 28th is all about the one she was holding up and the others below it.
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#93
lynx29
RedelZaVedno
2080TI +21% is not bad at all, IF pricing is right. IF AMD makes 12GB and 16GB variants and price them $499 and $549, it would be blast of a launch. On the other hand IF AMD decides to be greedy like with Zen3 announcement and price them $649 and $699, then it's gonna be DOA. Remembering Radeon 7 debacle, I'm afraid AMD will shoot itself in the foot once more and go with the suicidal greed option. I can still remember Lisa trying to sell us Polaris replacement (Navi 1) for 499 first and then for 449. Greed is infectious as hell:

I doubt it will be DOA, and Zen 3 won't be either, both will sell out instantly. Covid brought a lot of new people into this niche hobby. Demand is going to outpace stock for a good 6 months still imo, especially if we have a bad flu/covid season.
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#94
RedelZaVedno
lynx29
I doubt it will be DOA, and Zen 3 won't be either, both will sell out instantly. Covid brought a lot of new people into this niche hobby. Demand is going to outpace stock for a good 6 months still imo, especially if we have a bad flu/covid season.
You might be right. It will all come down to supply chain. Let me refrain. If Nvidia can deliver enough $699 3080 to saturate the market and AMD wants to change the same amount or 50 bucks less, then Big Navi will be DOA. I've always been a fan of value and currently I see no value in new AMD products, with exception of 5900X. It's strange to see Zen3 making 10600K and 10700K valid "value" options. I really hope RDNA2 offer us awesome price to performance ratio progress, but I'm not holding my breath. Personally, I'm gonna keep 3600 and 1080TI until I see something worth upgrading to without breaking a bank.
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#95
Zach_01
RedelZaVedno
You might be right. It will all come down to supply chain. Let me refrain. If Nvidia can deliver enough $699 3080 to saturate the market and AMD wants to change the same amount or 50 bucks less, then Big Navi will be DOA. I'm fan of value and currently I see no value in new AMD products, with exception of 5900X. It's strange to see Zen3 making 10600K and 10700K valid "value" options. I really hope RDNA2 offer us awesome price to performance ratio progress, but I'm not holding my breath. Personally, I'm gonna keep 3600 and 1080TI until I see something worth upgrading to without breaking the bank.
I would wait for reviews first to see were all the ZEN3 line falls into the swarm. Price to perf ratio against all other (ZEN2 and Intel).

I have the 3600 and gaming is the most "heavy" workload I use it for. I could look up for 5600X as it has ~20% more single thread performance per clock and another 400MHz (+11%) on top of that overall increase of IPC. Does +30% CPU performance worth the 300 price? Depends on the perspective and the outcome of reviews. But because ZEN4 is the last line that fits into AM4 and I want this X570 system for the next 5 years at least I'm looking towards 5800X/5900X. But not now. In a year after prices settle down, we can talk about it.
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#96
lynx29
RedelZaVedno
If Nvidia can deliver enough $699 3080 to saturate the market
Nvidia already announced they won't be able to keep up with supply until first few months of 2021. So yeah everything will be sold out for 6+ months imo.
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#97
GhostRyder
If true this will be disappointing to me regardless of price. While I will say if cheaper than the 3080 at this performance it can be a good value but since I failed to get a 3090/3080 I was thinking I might pick this up if it at least matched or bested the 3080. But again we will have to see because we don't know their testing methodology.
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#98
Vayra86
Turmania
From looks of it, it will contest with rtx 3700 not against 3800. Basically a 2080 ti competitor. Obviously we know very little about it and power consumption etc... but Lisa said it is big navi, therefore it is safe to assume that it will be its leading card. Unless they come up with uber navi etc.
Well, if they can average only a 10% performance deficit, and knowing the 3080 has zero OC headroom to speak of (even an undervolt is good on it), they're actually pretty competitive with a 3080. Now if they also provide 12-16GB to overtake the 10GB of the 3080... I think I'd know what card to pick, even at 650-720 ish for the AMD one. That's definitely competing with 3080, even if the net perf is a bit lower. It'll likely age a lot better and could be another 680 vs 7970 moment.

I'm hyper critical of what's on the table usually, but this looks pretty good. If the TDP is kept in check and it runs smoothly.... AMD has a great release on their hands. And let's pray for no driver or BIOS oopsies this time. Or at least a rapid and definitive hotfix scenario. That's a big thing, and RDNA1 didn't do it favors.

We also don't know how close the 3070 will get to 2080ti performance but I reckon they will match it. Not handily beat it - that only happens situationally. In that case... its certainly not competing with 3070, its on another tier entirely. This is definitely shaping up to be on the upper end of what I had expected from RDNA2.

Additionally, I think its realistic to expect this not to be a full chip, so there's that too.
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#99
Luminescent
I think Nvidia estimated correctly what AMD will launch based on what they did with the consoles and they pushed the hell out of that silicon reaching a new record of GPU power consumption.
If you now build a computer with a 10900k and RTX 3080 you can skip buying a heater in the winter, these two can actually heat up the room :).
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#100
efikkan
ador250
If it's around 5% slower than 3080 now, then it will eventually be 5% faster with mature driver in later. Plus, there is no way Lisa Su will show their top dog this early, it's literally a jebait. If it's a 64 or 72CU card then it's GG for Nvidia.
The fine wine argument again, that's a nonsensical argument, and more than a little misleading.
Buy an inferior product today, which may be superior sometime later, but it never happens.
Nvidia's drivers improve performance just as much as AMD's over time.
lynx29
AMD did trick nvidia last time, they duped them on a couple things if I recall correctly. On pricing. so it is possible this isn't their top dog card. lol we will see soon enough
Even if they did, I don't believe misleading competitors or consumers is a good thing. We need healthy competition and fair play.
Vayra86
Well, if they can average only a 10% performance deficit, and knowing the 3080 has zero OC headroom to speak of (even an undervolt is good on it), they're actually pretty competitive with a 3080.
If the performance lands between RTX 3070 and RTX 3080 and the price does too, then it's fair. But if it's less performant at the same price, then people shouldn't buy it.
Even if "big Navi" happens to have more OC headroom, that shouldn't be a general sales argument, most gamers want stable computers for gaming, not overclocking for setting records.
Vayra86
Now if they also provide 12-16GB to overtake the 10GB of the 3080... I think I'd know what card to pick, even at 650-720 ish for the AMD one. That's definitely competing with 3080, even if the net perf is a bit lower. It'll likely age a lot better and could be another 680 vs 7970 moment.
Aah, the eternal "future proofing" argument; buy inferior stuff with superior "specs" that will win over time. :rolleyes:
Our best guidance is always real world performance, not anecdotes about what will perform better years from now.
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