Monday, July 29th 2019

AMD Readies Larger 7nm "Navi 12" Silicon to Power Radeon RX 5800 Series?

AMD is developing a larger GPU based on its new "Navi" architecture to power a new high-end graphics card family, likely the Radeon RX 5800 series. The codename "Navi 12" is doing rounds on social media through familiar accounts that have high credibility with pre-launch news and rumors. The "Navi 10" silicon was designed to compete with NVIDIA's "TU106," as its "XT" and "Pro" variants outperform NVIDIA's original RTX 2060 and RTX 2070, forcing it to develop the RTX 20 Super series, by moving up specifications a notch.

Refreshing its $500 price-point was particularly costly for NVIDIA, as it was forced to tap into the 13.6 billion-transistor "TU104" silicon to carve out the RTX 2070 Super; while for the RTX 2060 Super, it had to spend 33 percent more on the memory chips. With the "Navi 12" silicon, AMD is probably looking to take a swing at NVIDIA's "TU104" silicon, which has been maxed out by the RTX 2080 Super, disrupting the company's $500-700 lineup once again, with its XT and Pro variants. There's also a remote possibility of "Navi 12" being an even bigger chip, targeting the "TU102."
Source: KOMACHI_ENSAKA (Twitter)
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128 Comments on AMD Readies Larger 7nm "Navi 12" Silicon to Power Radeon RX 5800 Series?

#101
Totally
That's vague af. Sidestepped that question like a boss, probably placated Hans but I would've called her out.
Posted on Reply
#102
bug
Totally, post: 4090355, member: 90126"
That's vague af. Sidestepped that question like a boss, probably placated Hans but I would've called her out.
Not sidestepped at all:
we have a rich 7-nanometer portfolio beyond the products that we have currently announced in the upcoming quarters
So whatever hasn't been announced for the upcoming quarters (plural!), is coming beyond (i.e. later than) that.
Posted on Reply
#103
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
If that's quoted word for word then I'd say they're working on a product that hasn't been announced yet. Maybe it isn't called Navi, maybe it is but it's clear AMD needs a new high performance GPU product because Navi/Super unseated Radeon VII.

bug, post: 4090358, member: 157434"
So whatever hasn't been announced for the upcoming quarters (plural!), is coming beyond (i.e. later than) that.
Good catch...yeah...we're gonna be waiting a while. :( Then again, AMD never gave the impression of anything other than Navi this year.


Look at it from AMD's perspective: Navi was a priority for Microsoft and Sony consoles. RX 5700 launch is branching off of that. Whatever comes next isn't going to be principally designed for consoles. I wouldn't be surprised if Sony/Microsoft gave AMD a 15 billion transistor budget for the entire package which is why we ended up with a 10.3 billion transistor Navi.
Posted on Reply
#104
Totally
bug, post: 4090358, member: 157434"
Not sidestepped at all:

So whatever hasn't been announced for the upcoming quarters (plural!), is coming beyond (i.e. later than) that.
IN PLAINSPEAK: He's asking if there are any cards above the current above the 5700 XT on the way. Her response is that there are more cards on the way.

Doesn't commit to anything definite, as I far I'm concerned she's referring to the cards coming in below those two as she isn't lying if they don't release anything above the 5700 XT for the next HALF. If that isn't a sidestep/cop-out what is?
Posted on Reply
#105
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Mosesmann: "...7-nanometer high-end Navi and mobile 7-nanometer CPUs..."
Su: "...they are coming."

"they" = "those ones" = more than one


Then she continues: "You should expect that our execution on those are on track, and we have a rich 7-nanometer portfolio beyond the products that we have currently announced in the upcoming quarters."

Plainly: >RX 5700 XT cards and 7nm mobile CPUs are coming in 2020 or later. These products haven't been announced yet.
Posted on Reply
#106
Alpha_Lyrae
rvalencia, post: 4089765, member: 99935"
NAVI 10 has two shader engines with four prim (triangle) units, 40 CU, 64 ROPS, 4MB L2 cache coupled with 256 bit bus.

7870 has two shader engines with two geometry units, 20 CU, 32 ROPS, 512KB L2 cache coupled with 256 bit bus.
R9-290X has four shader engines with four geometry units, 44 CU, 64 ROPS, 1MB L2 cache coupled with 512 bit bus. R9-290X is 2X scaled 7870.

Your argument for " theoretical maximum of 8 shader engines with 10 CUs each" didn't factor in memory controller relationship!

Each NAVI shader engine has two prim units, 20 CU, 32 ROPS, 2MB L2 cache and 128 bit bus.
Navi has 4 shader engines using dual compute units (each single CU is now 32 cores, so a dual CU is 64 cores - 2x32; this is why Wave32 takes 1 cycle and Wave64 takes 2 cycles). Each shader engine has 1 rasterizer, primitive unit, 16 ROPs (4x4) with included 128KB L1 cache for this tightly integrated hardware block.

Memory controller relationship doesn't matter so long as you use a crossbar to connect uneven amounts of ROP and MCs (see AMD's Tahiti). But, 6 SEs and 96 ROPs are evenly matched to a 384-bit bus. 8 SEs would likely use 4 1024-bit HBM3 MCs/PHYs.

The way the image is labeled might open ambiguity, but they show 4 distinct shader engine blocks.
Posted on Reply
#107
ToxicTaZ
crotach, post: 4089937, member: 188969"
I'm sure nvidia will come out with a new SUPER DUPER series to compete with AMD.
What for?

Navi 10 is only going after TU106 as it distroyed it!

TU104 already outperforms Navi 10 and as for Navi 12 if any truth will then compete against TU104 but as for now Navi 12 is nonexistent.

Navi 20 will compete against TU102 but by then I would expect Nvidia to release an unlocked TU102. (2080Ti Super) yes...

RTX 2070 Super is the best all around GPU going right now, out of the box can OC up to 2.1GHz which brings it around 2080 performance at a lower price point. Stock 2070 Super is already 1080Ti and Radeon 7 performance out of the box at a lower price point.

TU104 all around is an awesome GPU! AMD knows this..... Hopefully AMD trys very hard to bring some compition to the table soon and bring those Nvidia prices down a bit more, as there doing to Intel.

Just think Intel has Xe coming too lol

2020 going to be interesting.
Posted on Reply
#108
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
NVIDIA is going to have a 7nm product sooner or later.

Xe is the real unknown here. It could cause a major disruption to the graphics card market. I'm not going to hold my breath though because Intel hasn't proven their 10nm process will work for large chips yet. If Xe on 14 nm, there's not much chance of it competing with the 7nm products.

Navi is impressive though. It's clearly not just GCN 6th gen with a die shrink.
Posted on Reply
#109
rvalencia
Alpha_Lyrae, post: 4090388, member: 187828"
Navi has 4 shader engines using dual compute units (each single CU is now 32 cores, so a dual CU is 64 cores - 2x32; this is why Wave32 takes 1 cycle and Wave64 takes 2 cycles). Each shader engine has 1 rasterizer, primitive unit, 16 ROPs (4x4) with included 128KB L1 cache for this tightly integrated hardware block.

Memory controller relationship doesn't matter so long as you use a crossbar to connect uneven amounts of ROP and MCs (see AMD's Tahiti). But, 6 SEs and 96 ROPs are evenly matched to a 384-bit bus. 8 SEs would likely use 4 1024-bit HBM3 MCs/PHYs.

The way the image is labeled might open ambiguity, but they show 4 distinct shader engine blocks.
Wrong, it's two shading engines. Your diagram shows two shader engines i.e. count "shader engine".

https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd/navi-rdna-architecture-release-date-specs-performance

AMD Navi RDNA specs
That 7nm Navi 10 GPU is the first RDNA-based graphics chip, and the full core – used by the RX 5700 XT – comes with 40 compute units, and therefore 2,560 cores across two shader engines, with 64 render output units, and 160 texture units. It’s 251mm2 and has a full 10.3bn transistors inside it. Navi has a GDDR6 memory controller, though is compatible with HBM if needed, and has PCIe 4.0 support too.
Posted on Reply
#110
Mysteoa
HwGeek, post: 4088608, member: 185585"
I think it will be RX 5700XT vs RTX 2070 and few days before NDA lifts the RTX 2070Super comes out, so AMD will say that the RX 5800XT can match RTX 2080Ti in performance but at cheaper price of $999 and then few days berofe NDA lifts we will see RTX2080Ti SUPER at same $1200 MSRP.
There already is a RTX2080Ti SUPER called Titan RTX
Posted on Reply
#111
Super XP
Can't wait to see this new Navi 12 GPU in action. Hopefully AMD puts on a better cooler on it, enough with the Blower Style coolers.
They are ugly and don't work well.
The Radeon V cooler looked Great.

FordGT90Concept, post: 4090456, member: 60463"
NVIDIA is going to have a 7nm product sooner or later.

Xe is the real unknown here. It could cause a major disruption to the graphics card market. I'm not going to hold my breath though because Intel hasn't proven their 10nm process will work for large chips yet. If Xe on 14 nm, there's not much chance of it competing with the 7nm products.

Navi is impressive though. It's clearly not just GCN 6th gen with a die shrink.
Intel will most likely tap into the low to mid range "Discrete GPU" market. I don't see any high end GPUs from them, at least for another couple years. Unless they have a surprise or something.
I agree, Navi is a combination of Old Tech GCN + New tech combined. AMD did a fantastic job on them. Fudzilla was the 1st to break the news on NAVI and its GTX 1080 like performance for a $250 price tag. What actually happened was NAVI GPUs that actually compete beyond GTX 1080 like performance, hence the price increase from the rumoured $250.

by FUAD ABAZOVICon12 APRIL 2018
AMD Navi is no high end GPU
Posted on Reply
#112
spnidel
londiste, post: 4088626, member: 169790"
That sounds very optimistic.
optimistic? that doesn't sound optimistic to me. it sounds like a horror movie to me. the thought of paying $999 for a flagship card makes me shit my pants.
Posted on Reply
#113
rvalencia
Super XP, post: 4091037, member: 8670"
Can't wait to see this new Navi 12 GPU in action. Hopefully AMD puts on a better cooler on it, enough with the Blower Style coolers.
They are ugly and don't work well.
The Radeon V cooler looked Great.


Intel will most likely tap into the low to mid range "Discrete GPU" market. I don't see any high end GPUs from them, at least for another couple years. Unless they have a surprise or something.
I agree, Navi is a combination of Old Tech GCN + New tech combined. AMD did a fantastic job on them. Fudzilla was the 1st to break the news on NAVI and its GTX 1080 like performance for a $250 price tag. What actually happened was NAVI GPUs that actually compete beyond GTX 1080 like performance, hence the price increase from the rumoured $250.

by FUAD ABAZOVICon12 APRIL 2018
AMD Navi is no high end GPU
NAVI is not GCN.

NAVI wave32 executes in single clock cycle and wave64 executes in two clock cycle s while GCN wave64 executes in four clock cycles.
Posted on Reply
#114
Super XP
rvalencia, post: 4091679, member: 99935"
NAVI is not GCN.

NAVI wave32 executes in single clock cycle and wave64 executes in two clock cycle s while GCN wave64 executes in four clock cycles.
Correct it's based on RDNA. I was referring to an older explanation on what Navi could be.

Anyhow, thanks for correcting me.
Posted on Reply
#115
ToxicTaZ
Super XP, post: 4091037, member: 8670"
Can't wait to see this new Navi 12 GPU in action. Hopefully AMD puts on a better cooler on it, enough with the Blower Style coolers.
They are ugly and don't work well.
The Radeon V cooler looked Great.


Intel will most likely tap into the low to mid range "Discrete GPU" market. I don't see any high end GPUs from them, at least for another couple years. Unless they have a surprise or something.
I agree, Navi is a combination of Old Tech GCN + New tech combined. AMD did a fantastic job on them. Fudzilla was the 1st to break the news on NAVI and its GTX 1080 like performance for a $250 price tag. What actually happened was NAVI GPUs that actually compete beyond GTX 1080 like performance, hence the price increase from the rumoured $250.

by FUAD ABAZOVICon12 APRIL 2018
AMD Navi is no high end GPU
Intel has high-end GPUs coming by the way!

Bragin about 3.5 years old architecture 1080 performance is not Kool anymore.

Ryzen 7 is the performance of an 2.5 years old 1080Ti.

AMD is playing catch up....nothing more dreamers.

Want a fast Radeon 7 performance for less price?

2070 Super

https://www.asus.com/Graphics-Cards/ROG-STRIX-RTX2070S-O8G-GAMING/?_ga=2.221249307.20386078.1564531169-1847956122.1555133816

Can't wait for the Techpowerup Review on the ROG-STRIX-RTX2070S-O8G- !

This is faster than Navi 10
Posted on Reply
#116
Super XP
ToxicTaZ, post: 4091728, member: 145598"


Intel has high-end GPUs coming by the way!

Bragin about 3.5 years old architecture 1080 performance is not Kool anymore.

Ryzen 7 is the performance of an 2.5 years old 1080Ti.

AMD is playing catch up....nothing more dreamers.

Want a fast Radeon 7 performance for less price?

2070 Super

https://www.asus.com/Graphics-Cards/ROG-STRIX-RTX2070S-O8G-GAMING/?_ga=2.221249307.20386078.1564531169-1847956122.1555133816

Can't wait for the Techpowerup Review on the ROG-STRIX-RTX2070S-O8G- !

This is faster than Navi 10
You probably got confused. But how is a Ryzen 7 and a 1080 compared? Where one is a CPU and the other a GPU? Lol

AMD isn't playing catch up. They rule the CPU industry once again. The last time they achieved this was with the Athlon and Athlon 64.

AMDs Navi RDNA GPU is doing quite well in performance. Nvidia has the fastest GPU that's Overpriced. What people don't understand is it takes years for a new micro-Architecture. That is what AMDs been working on. They did it with the CPU and they are almost complete with the GPU...
Posted on Reply
#117
medi01
ToxicTaZ, post: 4091728, member: 145598"
Intel has high-end GPUs coming by the way!
No, they have something rather cheap ($200) coming, according to Raja. (something with HBM in it, for enterprise)
Posted on Reply
#118
Super XP
HwGeek, post: 4088604, member: 185585"
64CU Navi card can be sold for $999 for easy since it will be better then RTX 2080Ti, question is how much better should it be since in this price range the RTRT is more relevant since the 2080Ti can run games with RTX ON much better then the 2060/2070/2080.
AMD can use the current high pricing of the 2080Ti, we need to "thank" Nvidia for that :-(.
Absolutely not for $999, because we all know the 2080 Ti is OVERPRICED to begin with. The 2080Ti is only worth about $699 MAX. Which makes all Nvidia cards Overpriced.
Posted on Reply
#119
bug
Super XP, post: 4093245, member: 8670"
Absolutely not for $999, because we all know the 2080 Ti is OVERPRICED to begin with. The 2080Ti is only worth about $699 MAX. Which makes all Nvidia cards Overpriced.
To you, maybe. Obviously there are some that think that's the right price for 2080Ti, since they're buying the cards.
This may sound strange to you, but in a free market the price of goods is not dictated by the BOM. The price of goods is the one the seller is willing to accept and the buyer is willing to pay.
Posted on Reply
#120
Super XP
bug, post: 4093464, member: 157434"
To you, maybe. Obviously there are some that think that's the right price for 2080Ti, since they're buying the cards.
This may sound strange to you, but in a free market the price of goods is not dictated by the BOM. The price of goods is the one the seller is willing to accept and the buyer is willing to pay.
Hence the LOW 2080ti sales. Though the high price was due to lack of competition in the high end segment.
Posted on Reply
#121
bug
Super XP, post: 4093596, member: 8670"
Hence the LOW 2080ti sales. Though the high price was due to lack of competition in the high end segment.
As opposed to other high-end cards that usually sell en-masse?
The point is, whatever cards Nvidia makes, they sell. They're not catching dust on shelves.
Posted on Reply
#122
medi01
Super XP, post: 4093596, member: 8670"
Though the high price was due to lack of competition in the high end segment.
Or also because it is a 750mm2 monster chip.
Posted on Reply
#123
bug
medi01, post: 4093768, member: 158537"
Or also because it is a 750mm2 monster chip.
A combination of both. I'm pretty sure Nvidia would have sold that for much less (or didn't release it at all) if AMD was active in that segment. Of course, since I don't consider buying cards that cost half as much, I'm just enjoying my popcorn from the sidelines ;)
Posted on Reply
#124
Majin_Sam
bug, post: 4093464, member: 157434"
To you, maybe. Obviously there are some that think that's the right price for 2080Ti, since they're buying the cards.
This may sound strange to you, but in a free market the price of goods is not dictated by the BOM. The price of goods is the one the seller is willing to accept and the buyer is willing to pay.
...yea but thats got nothing to do w the value of a product. Nvidia has been padding their pockets for years at the expense of its customers and its only because AMD couldnt compete at the high end. Per frame, anything past a 60 series Nvidia GPU is a bad, bad value.

Totally, post: 4090355, member: 90126"
That's vague af. Sidestepped that question like a boss, probably placated Hans but I would've called her out.
She said theyre coming...and that future products beyond that are coming...whats she supposed to do, throw down the target specs and release dates out prematurely so Nvidia can beat them to the table with a 1680 Super Duper Ti?

A Navi 12 die wouldnt be any worse for efficiency as a fully equipped TU104. Nvidia fans, especially the RTX buyers (im one), are going to feel real dumb pretty soon. Worse than "ga-hyuck, I just bought a 9900k at full retail" kind of dumb. A 5800 series will compete at high end, and it doesnt even have to better, or even as good, because its not going to cost $1400. Its not going to be $999. AMD has the taste for blood and for once its not from being punched in the mouf so think like...$699...maybe $799. Boom. Now either Nvidia has to double down on RTX and expedite it to mainstream (spending billions), slash RTX prices to compete (pissing us off), or RTX gets killed for the foreseeable future and we go back to good ol' rasteurization horsepower, and hello GTX 1180, 1680, 1780, whatever. Thats whats about to happen.

ToxicTaZ, post: 4090447, member: 145598"
What for?

Navi 10 is only going after TU106 as it distroyed it!

TU104 already outperforms Navi 10 and as for Navi 12 if any truth will then compete against TU104 but as for now Navi 12 is nonexistent.

Navi 20 will compete against TU102 but by then I would expect Nvidia to release an unlocked TU102. (2080Ti Super) yes...

RTX 2070 Super is the best all around GPU going right now, out of the box can OC up to 2.1GHz which brings it around 2080 performance at a lower price point. Stock 2070 Super is already 1080Ti and Radeon 7 performance out of the box at a lower price point.

TU104 all around is an awesome GPU! AMD knows this..... Hopefully AMD trys very hard to bring some compition to the table soon and bring those Nvidia prices down a bit more, as there doing to Intel.

Just think Intel has Xe coming too lol

2020 going to be interesting.
Daaah, Navi 10 achieves near parity to TU104...albeit the diet version. I dont know about a 2080 Super Ti or anything...maybe a new GTX line...
Posted on Reply
#125
Super XP
Nvidia's RTX was a commercial failure. AMD has a huge opportunity to take back GPU market share.
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