Tuesday, February 9th 2021

AMD Zen 4 Reportedly Features a 29% IPC Boost Over Zen 3

While AMD has only released a few Zen 3 processors which are still extremely hard to purchase for RRP we are already receiving leaks on their successors. Zen 3 Milan processors will likely be the final generation of AM4 processors before the switch to AM5. AMD appears to be preparing a bridging series of processors based on the Zen 3+ architecture before the release of Zen 4. Zen 3+ is expected to be AMD's first AM5 CPU design and should bring small IPC gains similar to the improvements from Zen to Zen+ in the range of 4% - 7%. The Zen 3+ processors will be manufactured on TSMC's refined N7 node with a potential announcement sometime later in 2021.

Zen 4 is expected to launch the next year in 2022 and will bring significant improvements potentially up to 40% over Zen 3 after clock boosts according to ChipsandChesse. A Zen 4 Genoa engineering sample reportedly performed 29% faster than an existing Zen 3 CPUs at the same clock speeds and core counts. The Zen 4 architecture will be manufactured on a 5 nm node and could potentially bring another core count increase. This would be one of the largest generational improvements for AMD since the launch of Ryzen if true. Take all this information with a heavy dose of skepticism as with any rumor.
Source: ChipsandCheese
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143 Comments on AMD Zen 4 Reportedly Features a 29% IPC Boost Over Zen 3

#51
Zareek
Here we go again, let the over-hyping begin. 10% would be terrific! I hope Intel has something to counter. Then again with AMD's supply woes, Intel will still sell a lot of chips no matter how far they fall behind.
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#52
TechLurker
Zen 3+ doesn't seem too out there; it's just a matter of a new I/O die and potentially a new pin set for the new socket. If anything, it would make a good early adoption/buy-in into PCIe 5.0 in the AMD ecosystem, and let it keep pace with Intel's own upcoming PCIe 5.0 CPUs (mostly avoiding the "I have it, they don't" marketing that low-key nailed Intel somewhat with their delayed PCIe 4.0 CPUs).

I do hope though that the same refinements are also brought to the 5800, 5900, and 5950 as XT forms for AM4, since I'm one of those just waiting for things to hopefully normalize come Summer as I eventually prepare this main rig to last 5-10 years or more (unless we experience a breakthrough in quantum computing, and we see the AMD Quantum consumer chips).

The Zen 4 IPC rumor doesn't sound too out there, but it'll be a generation I'm not going to be interested in personally. I do hope to see AMD continue to pushing the limits, and hopefully finding more production space along the way too.
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#53
Mats
ratirt
Yeah I read and the slides from AMD are not showing anything about zen3+. Not sure where this info is coming from but the ZEN4 was included in the slides and has been from the beginning of AMD showing these. Nothing has been announced from AMD iso far so I'd look at the zen3+ as a rumour.
This whole thread is based on rumors. Some of them can be confirmed with info from AMD but you can't ask forum members to back up rumors in a thread about rumors.
We're referring to the OP and it's not enough for you. I'd suggest you ask the OP instead, or better yet, ask the sources. :) None of us came up with Zen3+, it's been out there for a while.
TechLurker
Zen 3+ doesn't seem too out there; it's just a matter of a new I/O die and potentially a new pin set for the new socket.
Yeah, it sounds possible. AMD will need a new IO chip for DDR5 and they will make new chiplets sooner or later. It makes sense to combine Ryzen 5000 chiplets with a new IO chip and use it for one generation, before updating the chiplets as well.
TechLurker
I do hope though that the same refinements are also brought to the 5800, 5900, and 5950 as XT forms for AM4,
I don't see what we could expect here besides higher prices. 3000XT made absolutely no one happy. 100 MHz extra makes zero difference in the long run.
TechLurker
The Zen 4 IPC rumor doesn't sound too out there, but it'll be a generation I'm not going to be interested in personally.
The Zen 3 improvements were impressive, especially since it still was the same 7 nm, the same IO chip, and still DDR4. All those should be improved in Zen 4, although I wouldn't have too much hope about 5 nm in terms of improvements.
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#54
Makaveli
piloponth
Weird, that Zen3+ will be AM5 socket.
I'm waiting for 5900XT as a 5900X with improved clocks, but immediatelly appliable in current motherboards. This idea is now destroyed.
Not Weird or surprising.

I knew AMD was going to release something on AM5 before Zen 4. And Figured it would be a Zen 3+ so you can have the boards out and tested in the wild. This also gives you time to work on the bios before Zen 4 launch. So the platform will be vetted instead of everything brand new for Zen 4.

And I don't think we are going to see a XT refresh on current Zen 3 models.
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#55
Vya Domus
john_
How have we moved from "3-5% and you should be happy" every year, to the "if it offers less than 15% we are going to be disappointing"?
To be fair IPC measurements are inherently worthless because they are not constant across different workloads.
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#56
medi01
BorisDG
Am I?


Is "league of legends" the new codeword for "IPC"?
What a cool new name!
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#57
Makaveli
The amount of trolling intel fan boys on this thread is hilarious.

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#58
dirtyferret
Fantastic! My new paper launched AMD CPU along with my new paper launched Nvidia GPU will give me leet FPS in paper games.
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#59
dyonoctis
Vendor
no, Intel is much better value here in my region and amd is overpriced. 3600 is 240$ and 10400f is 170$
Overpriced depends of your metrics. For Gaming the 10400f is absolutely the better value, but outside of gaming the 3600 tend to be faster and on the heels of a 10600k.
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#60
sergionography
This is great, but the limitation AMD faces remains, how will they increase supply to keep up with demand and growth. This was an issue they had in the original athlon days to a certain extent as well, though back then they owned their Fab
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#61
ratirt
Mats
This whole thread is based on rumors. Some of them can be confirmed with info from AMD but you can't ask forum members to back up rumors in a thread about rumors.
We're referring to the OP and it's not enough for you. I'd suggest you ask the OP instead, or better yet, ask the sources. :) None of us came up with Zen3+, it's been out there for a while.
Not all is rumors. How can you say that an info about a product that has been confirmed by the manufacturer about its release is a rumor?
I know what you are referring to but Zen4 is confirmed by AMD Zen3+ isn't. aka fact vs rumor.
Makaveli
Not Weird or surprising.

I knew AMD was going to release something on AM5 before Zen 4. And Figured it would be a Zen 3+ so you can have the boards out and tested in the wild. This also gives you time to work on the bios before Zen 4 launch. So the platform will be vetted instead of everything brand new for Zen 4.

And I don't think we are going to see a XT refresh on current Zen 3 models.
AMD never said it will release zen3+. That has been taken from what happened with zen and zen+ but that was a different situation than now. This doesn't meaning it has to happen. It wouldn't hurt if it does happen.
Either way you slice it, I believe it when I see it.
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#62
Mats
ratirt
How can you say that an info about a product that has been confirmed by the manufacturer about its release is a rumor?
I didn't.
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#63
efikkan
I doubt anyone outside AMD knows the IPC figures of these chips.
But regardless, substantial IPC gains is certainly still possible. Just continuing expanding the front-ends with wider OoO windows, larger register files etc. and adding additional execution ports alone have a theoretical potential of ~50-100% IPC gains (if not more). Potential new techniques which improves ILP, like threadlets, can yield gains beyond that. And then there is certainly ISA improvements.
So it's not unlikely that we will see several new generations offering IPC improvements in the ~20% range.

As for availability of Zen 3, I'm actually more concerned about the stability issues which still remains three months in, which ruins an otherwise kick-ass product. At least they are steadily shipping out, even though shops may have several months of backorders.
Vya Domus
To be fair IPC measurements are inherently worthless because they are not constant across different workloads.
Actually not. IPC is an underlying constant, which we try to approximate using a wide set of representative workloads.
Posted on Reply
#64
Makaveli
ratirt
Not all is rumors. How can you say that an info about a product that has been confirmed by the manufacturer about its release is a rumor?
I know what you are referring to but Zen4 is confirmed by AMD Zen3+ isn't. aka fact vs rumor.

AMD never said it will release zen3+. That has been taken from what happened with zen and zen+ but that was a different situation than now. This doesn't meaning it has to happen. It wouldn't hurt if it does happen.
Either way you slice it, I believe it when I see it.
I know there is nothing official on Zen 3+ and we may never see it. Rocket Lake S looks like its going to offer maybe 5-10% more single thread and be equal to Zen 3 on MT at the 8 core level. And with Zen 4 looking to be a 2022 Q1 launch and the current pandemic and inventory and stock issues there maybe no point with a refresh.
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#65
Vendor
dyonoctis
Overpriced depends of your metrics. For Gaming the 10400f is absolutely the better value, but outside of gaming the 3600 tend to be faster and on the heels of a 10600k.
just think of it, isn't India price bad? You didn't address my point, 10400f is 6c/12 and had decent ipc too i don't think it will very far behind other general compute tasks like editing, rendering, cinebench etc. and stuff
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#66
evernessince
Cobain
That's so 2017 tho. Right now is more like:

5600x - 350€, if you find one + whea errors, no stability
10600kf - 220€, plenty of stock, plug and play

3600 - 220€, good CPU , stable too
10400f - 140€, good CPU, stable

Easy decisions.
There is no wide-spread issues with the 5600X as you imply. You are just taking a few reddit posts (which aren't even verified evidence FYI) and extrapolating those to the extreme. I've seen FAR more posts about heat issues on the Intel 10xx series than AMD WHEA errors.

In addition, your pricing estimates are misleading. You are forgetting the cost of a CPU cooler. The AMD processor comes with one, not to mention Intel is harder to cool due to the higher power requirements. In addition, in order to get the most out of an Intel CPU you need a Z class motherboard (You can't even enable XMP on anything but Z class for Intel). The 5600X on the otherhand runs just fine on a $65 motherboard and you can still run your RAM at high frequencies.

Last you are quoting the inflated AMD prices, not MSRP. There's a reason the Intel CPUs are still in stock, they are worse in every metric often by a wide margin. Hell the 5600X matches in multi-threading performance to Intel's higher core count parts and consumes half the power while doing it.

If you want the best CPU on the market, you buy the 5800X / 5900X / 5950X (depending on core count need). If you want a budget CPU you get the 3600. The 10400f is a decent proposition and beats the 3600 in gaming by a small amount but at this price point people won't have a GPU that can realize the difference and in order to get that performance out of the 10400f you need a Z class motherboard. Your performance advantage is moot with a B class mobo. The 3600 beats the 10400f in every other metric though, so really you are buying it if you only care about gaming.
Zareek
Here we go again, let the over-hyping begin. 10% would be terrific! I hope Intel has something to counter. Then again with AMD's supply woes, Intel will still sell a lot of chips no matter how far they fall behind.
Those will relax as the market returns to normal demand levels. Right now demand was placed at around 2.8 times normal.
Vendor
no, Intel is much better value here in my region and amd is overpriced. 3600 is 240$ and 10400f is 170$
That's very expensive for a 3600. That said the 3600 still comes with a CPU cooler and can run just fine on a low end motherboard. In the end you are going to be paying about the same for the Intel and AMD platform. Retailers in your area seem to have up-priced the AMD CPU knowing this.
Posted on Reply
#67
Vendor
evernessince
That's very expensive for a 3600. That said the 3600 still comes with a CPU cooler and can run just fine on a low end motherboard. In the end you are going to be paying about the same for the Intel and AMD platform. Retailers in your area seem to have up-priced the AMD CPU knowing this.
the i5 also comes with a stock cooler which is enough for it as it's not very power hungry and non-overclockable
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#68
Caring1
Night
Somehow I think Zen 3+ will be a beta release of AM5 platform, while the fully functional platform should arrive with Zen 4. Lots of new things added apparently, I'm not expecting everything at 100% from the start. That's another year for me, oh well...
Think?
More like you read that in an article here and are now parroting it as if you had that thought.
Posted on Reply
#69
dyonoctis
Vendor
just think of it, isn't India price bad? You didn't address my point, 10400f is 6c/12 and had decent ipc too i don't think it will very far behind other general compute tasks like editing, rendering, cinebench etc. and stuff
The price difference between them is not too far off as the one that you would find in Europe, but on Amazon it still outsold the 10400f.
I'm not saying that choosing the 10400f is a bad choice, but there's a few perks coming from zen2 and AM4, a more modern platform with pcie 4, and the possiblity to get a zen 3 for cheap after a while (especially when DDR5 is going to be costly, and not much faster for at least a couple years.)

We are equally getting screwed for not being american (besides the fact that zen 3 is far far more easier to get in Europe), but I still don't think that the 3600 is overpriced. The 3600x/5600x though ? big time overpriced.
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#70
Vendor
dyonoctis
The price difference between them is not too far off as the one that you would find in Europe, but on Amazon it still outsold the 10400f.
I'm not saying that choosing the 10400f is a bad choice, but there's a few perks coming from zen2 and AM4, a more modern platform with pcie 4, and the possiblity to get a zen 3 for cheap after a while (especially when DDR5 is going to be costly, and not much faster for at least a couple years.)

We are equally getting screwed for not being american (besides the fact that zen 3 is far far more easier to get in Europe), but I still don't think that the 3600 is overpriced. The 3600x/5600x though ? big time overpriced.
their boards are more expensive too except a320
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#71
dyonoctis
Vendor
their boards are more expensive too except a320
Well your country is doing everything backwards, then :wtf: in Europe you can find b450 for lower or about the same as b460. You can even find a few b550 for cheaper than the h470 (and B550 being compatible with pcie 4.0 means that they got a thicker pcb)
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#72
thesmokingman
This thread isn't about pricing in x country lol.
Posted on Reply
#74
Vendor
Mats
No. On the other hand, budget LGA1200 won't run Rocket Lake.
won't there be newer gen budget ones? like h510 or b560
Posted on Reply
#75
Cobain
evernessince
There is no wide-spread issues with the 5600X as you imply. You are just taking a few reddit posts (which aren't even verified evidence FYI) and extrapolating those to the extreme. I've seen FAR more posts about heat issues on the Intel 10xx series than AMD WHEA errors.

In addition, your pricing estimates are misleading. You are forgetting the cost of a CPU cooler. The AMD processor comes with one, not to mention Intel is harder to cool due to the higher power requirements. In addition, in order to get the most out of an Intel CPU you need a Z class motherboard (You can't even enable XMP on anything but Z class for Intel). The 5600X on the otherhand runs just fine on a $65 motherboard and you can still run your RAM at high frequencies.

Last you are quoting the inflated AMD prices, not MSRP. There's a reason the Intel CPUs are still in stock, they are worse in every metric often by a wide margin. Hell the 5600X matches in multi-threading performance to Intel's higher core count parts and consumes half the power while doing it.

If you want the best CPU on the market, you buy the 5800X / 5900X / 5950X (depending on core count need). If you want a budget CPU you get the 3600. The 10400f is a decent proposition and beats the 3600 in gaming by a small amount but at this price point people won't have a GPU that can realize the difference and in order to get that performance out of the 10400f you need a Z class motherboard. Your performance advantage is moot with a B class mobo. The 3600 beats the 10400f in every other metric though, so really you are buying it if you only care about gaming.



Those will relax as the market returns to normal demand levels. Right now demand was placed at around 2.8 times normal.



That's very expensive for a 3600. That said the 3600 still comes with a CPU cooler and can run just fine on a low end motherboard. In the end you are going to be paying about the same for the Intel and AMD platform. Retailers in your area seem to have up-priced the AMD CPU knowing this.
Look, is him! The most famous AMD fanboy on techspot!

Btw 10400f comes with a cooler and its performance doesnt get affected a single bit by using it.

Z490 motherboard? 120€ and you're set. Cooler for 10600k? Cyorig m9i and you are good to go. Still cheaper than 5600x+b550 motherboard.

Oh also forgot that you dont need b die RAM on Intel, wich is more expensive.

You can Say what you want, no One on a budget buys AMD right now. Plus... Stocks are awful anyway.

PS: yes there are common stability issues with zen3. Go on overclock dot net forum and look at the poll. The most recent chips have a high errors rate, at stock! Pure crap.
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