Friday, June 25th 2021

Thanks to Windows 11, Scalpers Buy Out Add-on TPM 2.0 Modules

Most modern PC platforms include an fTPM (firmware trusted platform module) of some form. Those that don't, have a TPM 2.0 compatible header on the motherboards. Microsoft's requirement of a hardware TPM for Windows 11 has scalpers go after add-on TPMs, which are typically priced around $20, but now marked up to $100, according to price-tracking by Shen Ye, a senior HTC VIVE exec, who has been tracking prices of add-on TPMs on Twitter.

Scalpers possibly anticipate a rush of ill-informed buyers out for add-on TPMs, who haven't spent 5 minutes digging through their UEFI setup programs for the fTPM toggle. Below is a screenshot of a Ryzen 7 2700X-based machine, paired with an AMD B450 chipset motherboard (a platform from 2018), with its fTPM toggle turned on. The PC now meets Windows 11 system requirements. Windows 11 uses hardware TPMs for secure storage of credentials. "Microsoft, can you not impose a TPM requirement during a silicon shortage? Especially considering most desktop motherboards support TPM only as a purchasable accessory," Shen Ye tweeted.
Source: Shen Ye (Twitter)
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263 Comments on Thanks to Windows 11, Scalpers Buy Out Add-on TPM 2.0 Modules

#251
Hiner101
AthloniteI can understand why MS are saying 8th gen Intel CPU's and above as it comes down to security ie: Intel built spectre and Meltdown and Zombieload mitigations into the hardware whereas previous gens relied on software mitigations which slowed them down but as for AMD's Ryzen 1xxx 2xxx and 3xxx CPU's I'm not so sure did AMD build in mitigations to these CPU's I pretty sure Ryzen 1xxx CPU don't have it built in not so sure about 2xxx and 3xxx but who really cares most of us will just hack it to run on the hardware we have and not give a shit about what or why MS have said no to it
But they are wrong. Intel for example have added hardware and firmware mitigations regarding Spectre and Meltdown vulnerabilities only to its Coffee Lake-R processors and onwards (announced on Oct 2018). So Intel 8th Gen KabyLake-R processors that are on the win11 compatibility list must be excluded as well (ex. i5-8350U).
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#252
windwhirl
Hiner101But they are wrong. Intel for example have added hardware and firmware mitigations regarding Spectre and Meltdown vulnerabilities only to its Coffee Lake-R processors and onwards (announced on Oct 2018). So Intel 8th Gen KabyLake-R processors that are on the win11 compatibility list must be excluded as well (ex. i5-8350U).
The mitigations have nothing to do with it. Driver model is the reason mentioned by Microsoft.
Reliability. Devices upgraded to Windows 11 will be in a supported and reliable state. By choosing CPUs that have adopted the new Windows Driver model and are supported by our OEM and silicon partners who are achieving a 99.8% crash free experience.
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#253
ThrashZone
Hi,
Oc'ing tends to lead to crashes anyone ever tell MS that lol it's for fun, reported driver has little to do with it but they whack a driver listed as the cause in a silly bsod report real issue is user created :p
Posted on Reply
#254
windwhirl
ThrashZoneHi,
Oc'ing tends to lead to crashes anyone ever tell MS that lol it's for fun, reported driver has little to do with it but they whack a driver listed as the cause in a silly bsod report real issue is user created :p
I doubt Microsoft isn't aware. The engineers are not idiots, unlike what some people assume. And not making a BSOD report when a BSOD happens because you guess that it was caused by overclock will just lead to less actually important reports being created and sent to MS. More trouble down the line.

Also
our OEM and silicon partners who are achieving a 99.8% crash free experience.
Overclockers and a great deal of DIYers and tinkerers not included in that statement.
Posted on Reply
#255
ThrashZone
windwhirlI doubt Microsoft isn't aware. The engineers are not idiots, unlike what some people assume. And not making a BSOD report when a BSOD happens because you guess that it was caused by overclock will just lead to less actually important reports being created and sent to MS. More trouble down the line.

Also


Overclockers and a great deal of DIYers and tinkerers not included in that statement.
Hi,
Yeah doesn't stop the driver police but you give the ms engineers way too much credit lol
Posted on Reply
#256
Hiner101
windwhirlThe mitigations have nothing to do with it. Driver model is the reason mentioned by Microsoft.
I think it can be said that Ryzen 1xxxX and Ryzen APU 2xxxG are supported and in reliable state at the moment. How could it be otherwise, since they are all part of the "same" Zen platform for AM4 and they were "born" with and for windows 10. Also all Rzyen motherboard chipsets obviously have recent drivers (at the moment Jun 2021). Again...same platform. Whether they decided to exclude them through an arbitrary decision is another matter. They are trying to say anything to justify the fact that it is an arbitrary decision made by them to try to push the replacement of PCs that are only older than two or three years.

Also require a new windows driver model for a CPU? Probably is more common for other devices or for example the WDDM of the GPUs recently updated to 2.7 on Win10 2004 and now 3.0 aanounced. In any case even for this, AMD's Ryzen APUs GPU are also perfectly supported with very recent drivers, so there will be no problems, as long as they don't try to create the problem themselves...

Also "our OEM and silicon partners who are achieving a 99.8% crash free experience". I don't know if I have to laugh or cry. I have an OEM PC of a reputable brand, bought some months ago, naturally with a CPU on their win11 list, no chance of having the TPM enabled due to an error by the manufacturer.
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#257
windwhirl
Hiner101I think it can be said that Ryzen 1xxxX and Ryzen APU 2xxxG are supported and in reliable state at the moment. How could it be otherwise, since they are all part of the "same" Zen platform for AM4 and they were "born" with and for windows 10. Also all Rzyen motherboard chipsets obviously have recent drivers (at the moment Jun 2021). Again...same platform
Agreed so far. Why original Zen was excluded is not clear (I understand leaving FX and everything else before it behind, if anything), same with Intel's side.
Hiner101Whether they decided to exclude them through an arbitrary decision is another matter. They are trying to say anything to justify the fact that it is an arbitrary decision made by them to try to push the replacement of PCs that are only older than two or three years.
That might be reading too much. Push for the replacement of PCs? Honestly, why exactly are people so interested into moving to Windows 11? It's not for new features for sure. Because so far, the only things worth talking about would be DirectStorage (which so far is not available, and when it is I'd rather see a third-party review rather than MS' numbers), which already requires a somewhat high end PC, and the Android stuff (which is the most unpredictable due to being based on Amazon's store and Android apps themselves rarely if ever being developed to run on desktop-live environments). So, yeah, realistically, you're not missing much by staying with Windows 10 so far.
Hiner101Also require a new windows driver model for a CPU? Probably is more common for other devices or for example the WDDM of the GPUs recently updated to 2.7 on Win10 2004 and now 3.0 aanounced. In any case even for this, AMD's Ryzen APUs GPU are also perfectly supported with very recent drivers, so there will be no problems, as long as they don't try to create the problem themselves...
I do not know if AMD/Intel are using the standard WDM (which is a possibility, but it's been criticized for being extremely complex) or if they're using KMDF (which is considered far easier) for their CPU drivers. Of WDM I have not found a changelog of sorts, but KDMF has been updated almost with every Windows version. Versions 1.31 (introduced with Windows 10 2004) and 1.33 (expected to be introduced with Server 2022, which makes me think it will also be introduced with Windows 11) add certain power management functionality. I guess Microsoft is pushing for that?


docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/wdf/kmdf-version-history






I know at least AMD has already started using Directed Power Management Framework. It's cited in their release notes for their AMDPSP driver.

Hiner101Also "our OEM and silicon partners who are achieving a 99.8% crash free experience". I don't know if I have to laugh or cry. I have an OEM PC of a reputable brand, bought some months ago, naturally with a CPU on their win11 list, no chance of having the TPM enabled due to an error by the manufacturer.
Well, TPM not being able to be enabled because the OEM did not include a switch in UEFI or whatever isn't exactly a crash. Though it's rather annoying and stupid on the OEM's part.
Posted on Reply
#258
Hiner101
It's not a problem to "want" to install windows 11, but not to "be able" to do it. This is a different thing.

I think it can be shared that after all that has been said in these days post announcement one thing is clear. The replacement of a PC in the future will be dictated not so much by its general performance, as in principle it has been until today, but by the lack of a functionality or worse by a version of it. You know how many functionalities, instructions, fixes, revisions of these,etc. can there be in a system and its components? Or speaking of security, how many new security threats may be discovered in the coming years?..that's it.

So everyone involved in this "game" will be able to say and do what they want. I don't mean that it's not already so, but in the future It will be even worse.

Someone announce the XYZ revision of the XYZ functionality or the fix for a new security threat recently discovered and also there will be an announcement that the new outgoing operating system will work (or install as in this case) only if these latest ones are present on the components of the PC for "the good of all mankind".

Moreover applying this reasoning, everything changes from now.

Considering what happened this time (and also what I have reported of OEM systems that don't comply even with very recent hardware) who will buy again a new pc (or components), even if very recent, in the last year before a "probably" new OS announcement? It's not better to be sure that you know what it will take.
Or also who will buy the first available products (I mean something as an entire platform...) for the new OS (in this case win11)? They are probably the first one which will be excluded from let's say a future windows 12 around five years later, as it is now for the Skylake/Ryzen 1st (now the situations is worse, the AMD Ryzen APU 1st zen is of mid-2018). The purchase market will become such a figure:
NEW OS_/\_NEW OS_/\_ (forgive the drawing)

I hope it's clear what I want to say.
Posted on Reply
#260
Mussels
Moderprator
Hiner101It's not a problem to "want" to install windows 11, but not to "be able" to do it. This is a different thing.

I think it can be shared that after all that has been said in these days post announcement one thing is clear. The replacement of a PC in the future will be dictated not so much by its general performance, as in principle it has been until today, but by the lack of a functionality or worse by a version of it. You know how many functionalities, instructions, fixes, revisions of these,etc. can there be in a system and its components? Or speaking of security, how many new security threats may be discovered in the coming years?..that's it.

So everyone involved in this "game" will be able to say and do what they want. I don't mean that it's not already so, but in the future It will be even worse.

Someone announce the XYZ revision of the XYZ functionality or the fix for a new security threat recently discovered and also there will be an announcement that the new outgoing operating system will work (or install as in this case) only if these latest ones are present on the components of the PC for "the good of all mankind".

Moreover applying this reasoning, everything changes from now.

Considering what happened this time (and also what I have reported of OEM systems that don't comply even with very recent hardware) who will buy again a new pc (or components), even if very recent, in the last year before a "probably" new OS announcement? It's not better to be sure that you know what it will take.
Or also who will buy the first available products (I mean something as an entire platform...) for the new OS (in this case win11)? They are probably the first one which will be excluded from let's say a future windows 12 around five years later, as it is now for the Skylake/Ryzen 1st (now the situations is worse, the AMD Ryzen APU 1st zen is of mid-2018). The purchase market will become such a figure:
NEW OS_/\_NEW OS_/\_ (forgive the drawing)

I hope it's clear what I want to say.
the limits they put in are so easily bypassed i could talk my mother through it - meaning all these angry rants are from people who never read past the headline

MS has rolled back the limits, and then people downright removed them within 24 hours of finding out they existed
Posted on Reply
#261
R-T-B
windwhirlThe mitigations have nothing to do with it. Driver model is the reason mentioned by Microsoft.
CPUs don't use drivers, they run them. The most driver like thing they load is microcode.

I smell BS.
Posted on Reply
#262
windwhirl
R-T-BCPUs don't use drivers, they run them. The most driver like thing they load is microcode.

I smell BS.
Do tell then why they show up in Device Manager with their own driver file.

EDIT: Yes, I agree that at least for most if not all of the core functionality of a CPU there's no driver needed. The extra functionality of this driver, if there's any, is unknown to me, though. And maybe the reason why Microsoft is asking for specific processor generations as a minimum.

Posted on Reply
#263
R-T-B
windwhirlDo tell then why they show up in Device Manager with their own driver file.
It's a generic probe driver for the brand features written by microsoft. All it does is "poke" the cpu to find out what ISA commands it supports.
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