Thursday, January 13th 2022

Intel and TSMC Strike 3nm Deal, New Hsinchu Fab to Cater to Intel

It looks like Intel and TSMC have a deal in place to manufacture 3 nm chips. The world-leading Taiwanese fab is setting up a new facility exclusively to cater to Intel, according to DigiTimes, citing industry sources. This facility will be located in the Baoshan area of Hsinchu, in northern Taiwan. The 3 nm node will enable Intel to keep its newfound cadence of launching new CPU microarchitectures with IPC increases each year. The annual IPC increase cadence in particular, would be faster than even the "Tick-Tock" cadence prior to 2015, as the company pushed IPC increases and foundry nodes each alternating year. The company faces stiff competition from AMD, which has been posting IPC increases each year since 2017, and leveraged TSMC 7 nm nodes to beat Intel in the IPC game for the first time in over 17 years.
Source: DigiTimes
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65 Comments on Intel and TSMC Strike 3nm Deal, New Hsinchu Fab to Cater to Intel

#1
Daven
TSMC makes revenue almost at the level of Intel. Intel should have become fab only and sold all its chip IP to pay for new fabs with better capabilities. With no products of their own, fabless companies would have no problem going to them for production.

Instead, they gave too much money to shareholders and lowered R&D budgets. Their fabs sit idle with only a few barely producing enough 10 nm and below chips with horrible yields. They beg for government subsidies to build new crappy fabs. Because of this, they are taking away fab capacity from the competition while sabotaging the region by talking about instabilities between Taiwan and China.

I really really don’t like Intel.
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#2
Punkenjoy
I am glad that intel will introduce more competition in the GPU market and their CPU are now worth it and competitive.

But I am very disappointed that they are dragging behind in the foundry business. That just do not seems right. So many time in the past Intel didn't had competitive architecture and managed to fight back with amazing process.

I think the lack of competition in the foundry business will hurt the market long term.
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#3
TheinsanegamerN
DavenTSMC makes revenue almost at the level of Intel. Intel should have become fab only and sold all its chip IP to pay for new fabs with better capabilities. With no products of their own, fabless companies would have no problem going to them for production.

Instead, they gave too much money to shareholders and lowered R&D budgets. Their fabs sit idle with only a few barely producing enough 10 nm and below chips with horrible yields. They beg for government subsidies to build new crappy fabs. Because of this, they are taking away fab capacity from the competition while sabotaging the region by talking about instabilities between Taiwan and China.

I really really don’t like Intel.
Um, why on earth would they do that when their IP is what sells?

And do you have a source for "fabs sitting idle"? Intel's fabs have been at capacity for years with 14nm products, they only fabs offline now are being upgraded to 10nm superfin.
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#4
londiste
DavenTSMC makes revenue almost at the level of Intel. Intel should have become fab only and sold all its chip IP to pay for new fabs with better capabilities. With no products of their own, fabless companies would have no problem going to them for production.

Instead, they gave too much money to shareholders and lowered R&D budgets. Their fabs sit idle with only a few barely producing enough 10 nm and below chips with horrible yields. They beg for government subsidies to build new crappy fabs. Because of this, they are taking away fab capacity from the competition while sabotaging the region by talking about instabilities between Taiwan and China.

I really really don’t like Intel.
The last sentence is probably the most correct part of this.
- Why should Intel have sold IP? If anything, selling fabs was the more speculated option.
- They had and have money to pay for new fabs, funding was not and is not the problem they have with fabs.
- Outside some small and quite separate things foundry business is a new thing for Intel that has not really started yet, you make it seem like they have done that for long time.
- Intel R&D budgets have constantly increased with a few very small exceptions. So has their CapEx.
- By all indications none of they fabs are sitting idle, they are churning out chips on all their available manufacturing capabilities. Some may be being updated for newer processes though.
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#5
Tomorrow
I for one welcome this. With both AMD and Intel chips being manufactured on the same node by TSMC (albeit different factories) it is truly the case of "let the best architecture win".

Hopefully this finally shuts up those who say that AMD only beat intel because they used TSMC's node that was better. Sure it was and arguably is but AMD themselves needed to come up with a competitive architecture too. And Zen is no slouch being designed by Jim Keller originally and now iterated beyond that.

The only thing AMD really cant compete in is volume. Intel still ships much bigger volume of chips. Tho with using TSMC's node it does equalize things a bit between the two. Mainly because i doubt this one 3nm fab has the volume of all other Intel fabs combined.
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#6
usiname
TomorrowI for one welcome this. With both AMD and Intel chips being manufactured on the same node by TSMC (albeit different factories) it is truly the case of "let the best architecture win".

Hopefully this finally shuts up those who say that AMD only beat intel because they used TSMC's node that was better. Sure it was and arguably is but AMD themselves needed to come up with a competitive architecture too. And Zen is no slouch being designed by Jim Keller originally and now iterated beyond that.

The only thing AMD really cant compete in is volume. Intel still ships much bigger volume of chips. Tho with using TSMC's node it does equalize things a bit between the two. Mainly because i doubt this one 3nm fab has the volume of all other Intel fabs combined.
You are wrong, soon there won't be AMD+TSMC. Intel will take the whole TSMC's production and will left AMD with Crapsung "4-5nm".
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#7
TheoneandonlyMrK
usinameYou are wrong, soon there won't be AMD+TSMC. Intel will take the whole TSMC's production and will left AMD with Crapsung "4-5nm".
Perhaps you are partially right.

But AMD have Samsung to deal with and Samsung wants to out do Tsmc Soo

www.club386.com/tsmc-apple-first-3nm-policy-leads-to-amd-and-qualcomm-mutiny/

But only partially, these deals are not made in weeks, and companies don't usually get hung out to dry unless the people running them are fool's.

Lisa Su is no fool if she left tsmc 3Nm on the table it's because she had a plan.

Will it pan out , who knows but your wrong too soo.
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#8
Jomale
PunkenjoyI am glad that intel will introduce more competition in the GPU market and their CPU are now worth it and competitive.

But I am very disappointed that they are dragging behind in the foundry business. That just do not seems right. So many time in the past Intel didn't had competitive architecture and managed to fight back with amazing process.

I think the lack of competition in the foundry business will hurt the market long term.
Intel GPU seems also to be a TSMC product, so more Intel Arc GPU less AMD and future Nvidia chips.
Your wish is not what reality is shown:
www.pcgamer.com/intel-alchemist-gpu-tsmc-6nm-process/
www.pcinvasion.com/nvidia-tsmc-rtx-4000-series/
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#9
Tomorrow
usinameYou are wrong, soon there won't be AMD+TSMC. Intel will take the whole TSMC's production and will left AMD with Crapsung "4-5nm".
AMD is one of TSMC's top customers. I highly doubt that this will end even if Samsung is cheaper. Sure AMD may move some things to Samsung like APU's and console SoC's but im pretty sure they'll stick with TSMC regardless. Intel may have deep pockets but not enough to outbid everyone else. Apple will stay as TSMC's #1 customer and they have the deepest pockets.
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#10
Aquinus
Resident Wat-man
Davenfabless companies
I don't think Intel is intending to go fabless. Their bigger nodes have good yields and are adequate for a lot of other things beyond top of the line CPUs and GPUs. It's not like ethernet, chipset, and storage requires bleeding edge processes. It sounds like Intel is going fabless for the things that they can't do well themselves.
londisteSo has their CapEx.
Who doesn't like tax deductions?
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#11
usiname
TomorrowAMD is one of TSMC's top customers. I highly doubt that this will end even if Samsung is cheaper. Sure AMD may move some things to Samsung like APU's and console SoC's but im pretty sure they'll stick with TSMC regardless. Intel may have deep pockets but not enough to outbid everyone else. Apple will stay as TSMC's #1 customer and they have the deepest pockets.
Did you missed the TSMC's customers ranking? Intel has share as much as AMD's. Why do you think AMD is more important when intel can pay 10 times more. Just stay and watch how on the end of this year intel will have 13-14% while AMD barelly maintain their miserable 9%. The big difference is that AMD need cheap node to have profit, while as Intel mentioned before, they have billions which they are ready to sacrifice to beat/kill AMD.
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#12
Tomorrow
usinameDid you missed the TSMC's customers ranking? Intel has share as much as AMD's. Why do you think AMD is more important when intel can pay 10 times more. Just stay and watch how on the end of this year intel will have 13-14% while AMD barelly maintain their miserable 9%. The big difference is that AMD need cheap node to have profit, while as Intel mentioned before, they have billions which they are ready to sacrifice to beat/kill AMD.
I think you missed the ranking. Intel is nowhere near the top 3. Like i said - Intel can pay but this is not about money. There is not enough capacity to buy. Apple always gets priority including 3nm. Why do you think Intel bought 3nm instead of 5nm? - thats right - because no matter how many billions they have they cant outbuy capacity that's already sold. So relax. AMD is not going anywhere.
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#13
Daven
AquinusI don't think Intel is intending to go fabless. Their bigger nodes have good yields and are adequate for a lot of other things beyond top of the line CPUs and GPUs. It's not like ethernet, chipset, and storage requires bleeding edge processes. It sounds like Intel is going fabless for the things that they can't do well themselves.


Who doesn't like tax deductions?
I’m actually arguing that Intel should go chipless and be a fab only like TSMC. It seems crazy but TSMC has the same revenue as Intel so maybe not so crazy. I would love Intel to fix its fabs if they haven’t already done so then open them to the world. This is where we need more competition…the fab side. Intel will never be a good fab for third parties as long as they make their own chips and continue shady business practices. Its just not in their current shady best interests to see any other chip designer succeed…ever!
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#14
usiname
TomorrowI think you missed the ranking. Intel is nowhere near the top 3. Like i said - Intel can pay but this is not about money. There is not enough capacity to buy. Apple always gets priority including 3nm. Why do you think Intel bought 3nm instead of 5nm? - thats right - because no matter how many billions they have they cant outbuy capacity that's already sold. So relax. AMD is not going anywhere.
Nowhere near top 3, while has almost same share as AMD www.statista.com/statistics/1247996/tsmc-revenue-share-of-leading-customers/
Intel bought 3nm because AMD can't secure it, they are fine with the 5nm now, but can you guess what will happen in 5 years? Intel's target was never to get more than Apple, their goal is to make impossible for AMD to get nodes, but I am not sure that you can get this, because you don't see beyond the current year.
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#15
Tomorrow
usinameNowhere near top 3, while has almost same share as AMD www.statista.com/statistics/1247996/tsmc-revenue-share-of-leading-customers/
Intel bought 3nm because AMD can't secure it, they are fine with the 5nm now, but can you guess what will happen in 5 years? Intel's target was never to get more than Apple, their goal is to make impossible for AMD to get nodes, but I am not sure that you can get this, because you don't see beyond the current year.
5 years is a long time. A lot can happen. TSMC can royally screw up and Samsung could come out on top on 3nm. It's pointless to speculate that far ahead.
Plus it's not like TSMC will have the same fixed capacity 5 years from now. They too will expand and build more fabs. Who's to say they wont build an "AMD" fab somewhere?

And i doubt that Intel for all it's "financial horsepower" and volume has enough product to grab most of (Apple) leftover 3nm capacity to dry out AMD. but i guess we will see.
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#16
TheoneandonlyMrK
usinameNowhere near top 3, while has almost same share as AMD www.statista.com/statistics/1247996/tsmc-revenue-share-of-leading-customers/
Intel bought 3nm because AMD can't secure it, they are fine with the 5nm now, but can you guess what will happen in 5 years? Intel's target was never to get more than Apple, their goal is to make impossible for AMD to get nodes, but I am not sure that you can get this, because you don't see beyond the current year.
Listen, your getting excited.

See my post above yours about AMD signing a deal with Samsung, for 3Nm.

And pay mind not to stare so far you miss what's under your eye's.

Exactly how many GPUs has Intel sold btw, that capacity is for GPU , and it's a bet that it will be needed, IMHO at this rate it won't because Arc can't meet it's hype at this point and in three years when it's flopped it will get canned.
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#17
Tigger
I'm the only one
GO Intel. Wow how much money have Intel got yikes.

ERR-There is not enough capacity to buy--->The world-leading Taiwanese fab is setting up a new facility exclusively to cater to Intel
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#18
usiname
TheoneandonlyMrKListen, your getting excited.

See my post above yours about AMD signing a deal with Samsung, for 3Nm.

And pay mind not to stare so far you miss what's under your eye's.

Exactly how many GPUs has Intel sold btw, that capacity is for GPU , and it's a bet that it will be needed, IMHO at this rate it won't because Arc can't meet it's hype at this point and in three years when it's flopped it will get canned.
-See my post above yours about AMD signing a deal with Samsung, for 3Nm.
You can't read or what? Just read the first word in your article - "Rumours". Nice sources.
-And pay mind not to stare so far you miss what's under your eye's.
What to miss? Cheap rumors, no thanks.
-Exactly how many GPUs has Intel sold btw, that capacity is for GPU , and it's a bet that it will be needed, IMHO at this rate it won't because Arc can't meet it's hype at this point and in three years when it's flopped it will get canned.
Intel have 68% of the GPU market if you are not aware
wccftech.com/nvidia-intel-gpu-market-share-increased-while-amd-declined-in-q2-2021/
Don't underestimate their army of OEMs and marketing machine,curently they have only iGPUs, but in 2 years they will sell more dGPUs than AMD.
Also, Intel do not need to have competitive product, their marketing make the work
Posted on Reply
#19
TheoneandonlyMrK
usiname-See my post above yours about AMD signing a deal with Samsung, for 3Nm.
You can't read or what? Just read the first word in your article - "Rumours". Nice sources.
-And pay mind not to stare so far you miss what's under your eye's.
What to miss? Cheap rumors, no thanks.
-Exactly how many GPUs has Intel sold btw, that capacity is for GPU , and it's a bet that it will be needed, IMHO at this rate it won't because Arc can't meet it's hype at this point and in three years when it's flopped it will get canned.
Intel have 68% of the GPU market if you are not aware
wccftech.com/nvidia-intel-gpu-market-share-increased-while-amd-declined-in-q2-2021/
Don't underestimate their army of OEMs and marketing machine,curently they have only iGPUs, but in 2 years they will sell more dGPUs than AMD.
Also, Intel do not need to have competitive product, their marketing make the work
according to DigiTimes, citing industry sources, rock solid then eh.

Ah yes , the igpu markets strong , I think you're a share holder, and for that reason I will leave you to it.
And you started with
"You are wrong, soon there won't be AMD+TSMC. Intel will take the whole TSMC's production and will left AMD with Crapsung "4-5nm"."

Which lead to me pointing to alternative 3Nm sources , your idea you knew isn't as clear as your saying, and your link is not really about the same thing as the one I passed.

Until it's out it's not worth a shit, simple, ,see xeneos 2200 for proof.
lucky Intel has it's fans and OEM deals eh but they can't force people to buy them, they'll have to be actually good oh and out.
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#20
Aquinus
Resident Wat-man
DavenI’m actually arguing that Intel should go chipless and be a fab only like TSMC. It seems crazy but TSMC has the same revenue as Intel so maybe not so crazy. I would love Intel to fix its fabs if they haven’t already done so then open them to the world. This is where we need more competition…the fab side. Intel will never be a good fab for third parties as long as they make their own chips and continue shady business practices. Its just not in their current shady best interests to see any other chip designer succeed…ever!
I don't think that going 100% fabless is a good idea for Intel. They have a far more diverse portfolio than AMD and a lot of the tech that Intel produces isn't on bleeding edge nodes. This makes sense for their CPU and GPU development. Probably not for the rest of the portfolio though. Since they have the fabs, it's worth keeping control over that. There is a level of risk going 100% fabless. Diversity is important, but not if it's going to hamstring you.
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#21
z1n0x
I see the usual "Intel will take over TSMC and kick AMD out" drivel. May i suggest some reading?
semianalysis.substack.com/p/tsmc-wants-to-make-intel-dependent

"Now, onto Intel. Let’s start by dispelling this fiction that Intel is buying up capacity to stiff AMD. AMD is getting the capacity they want from TSMC, on the time frame they want. Another fact, Bob Swan has long since agreed to some very large deals. This deal included capacity at N6, N5/4, and N3. This is nothing new.

TSMC is smart, calculated, and is playing the long game. Yes, TSMC could be helping Intel get back on the horse as Intel works through internal process node issues. TSMC has a longer-term vision, where only they can supply leading edge capacity. In 2022 and 2023, Qualcomm and Nvidia recognize this fully, but are keeping Samsung in the back pocket for the future. They want to do the same to Intel."
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#22
AnarchoPrimitiv
TomorrowI for one welcome this. With both AMD and Intel chips being manufactured on the same node by TSMC (albeit different factories) it is truly the case of "let the best architecture win".

Hopefully this finally shuts up those who say that AMD only beat intel because they used TSMC's node that was better. Sure it was and arguably is but AMD themselves needed to come up with a competitive architecture too. And Zen is no slouch being designed by Jim Keller originally and now iterated beyond that.

The only thing AMD really cant compete in is volume. Intel still ships much bigger volume of chips. Tho with using TSMC's node it does equalize things a bit between the two. Mainly because i doubt this one 3nm fab has the volume of all other Intel fabs combined.
This isn't good in terms of long term competition....everyone seems to forget that Intel still dominates the market, has an R&D budget 650% larger than AMD's (which is also why anyone claiming "AMD is only winning because of process node" can stick it, because Intel's financial resources dwarf AMD's and 99% of the time, that determines everything, so regardless of process node, the fact that AMD is beating Intel with a shoestring budget is insanely impressive), has revenue over 800% greater than AMD and dominates the most lucrative markets of mobile (laptop) and enterprise, for all our sakes, we should want Intel to have to stick to their fabs for the next 5 years so AMD can continue to grow, but instead of Innovating, Intel is just throwing money at TSMC, which I guess is better than what Intel did the last time AMD threatened them which was bribe OEMs like Dell. Seriously, anyone concerned about long term competition should not like this development.
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#23
lynx29
So why exactly is my tax payer money going to help Intel build new factories again in the USA if they are just going to outsource the latest and greatest anyway? So much for America being the latest and greatest lol
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#24
Caring1
A Chinese invasion of Taiwan will throw a spanner in the works for Intel, did they plan that far ahead?
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#25
AlwaysHope
Caring1A Chinese invasion of Taiwan will throw a spanner in the works for Intel, did they plan that far ahead?
That was exactly my thoughts when reading this news today....
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