Friday, February 23rd 2024

Intel CEO Discloses TSMC Production Details: N3 for Arrow Lake & N3B for Lunar Lake

Feb 23rd, 2024 13:19 Discuss (25 Comments)

Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger engaged with press/media representatives following the conclusion of his IFS Direct Connect 2024 keynote speech—when asked about Team Blue's ongoing relationship with TSMC, he confirmed that their manufacturing agreement has advanced from "5 nm to 3 nm." According to a China Times news article: "Gelsinger also confirmed the expansion of orders to TSMC, confirming that TSMC will hold orders for Intel's Arrow and Lunar Lake CPU, GPU, and NPU chips this year, and will produce them using the N3B process, officially ushering in the Intel notebook platform that the outside world has been waiting for many years." Past leaks have indicated that Intel's Arrow Lake processor family will have CPU tiles based on their in-house 20A process, while TSMC takes care of the GPU tile aspect with their 3 nm N3 process node.

That generation is expected to launch later this year—the now "officially confirmed" upgrade to 3 nm should produce pleasing performance and efficiency improvements. The current crop of Core Ultra "Meteor Lake" mobile processors has struggled with the latter, especially when compared to rivals. Lunar Lake is marked down for a 2025 launch window, so some aspects of its internal workings remain a mystery—Gelsinger has confirmed that TSMC's N3B is in the picture, but no official source has disclosed their in-house manufacturing choice(s) for LNL chips. Wccftech believes that Lunar Lake will: "utilize the same P-Core (Lion Cove) and brand-new E-Core (Skymont) core architecture which are expected to be fabricated on the 20A node. But that might also be limited to the CPU tile. The GPU tile will be a significant upgrade over the Meteor Lake and Arrow Lake CPUs since Lunar Lake ditches Alchemist and goes for the next-gen graphics architecture codenamed "Battlemage" (AKA Xe2-LPG)." Late January whispers pointed to Intel and TSMC partnering up on a 2 nanometer process for the "Nova Lake" processor generation—perhaps a very distant prospect (2026).

Sources: China Times, DigiTimes Taiwan, Wccftech

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25 Comments on Intel CEO Discloses TSMC Production Details: N3 for Arrow Lake & N3B for Lunar Lake

Eternit

So he confirmed Intel 3 and Intel 20A are inferior to TSMC N3. I wonder who will be so naive to use Intel’s fabs.

3valatzy

EternitSo he confirmed Intel 3 and Intel 20A are inferior to TSMC N3. I wonder who will be so naive to use Intel’s fabs.

"Inferior" means cheaper. I wonder who will be so naive to use TSMC when it charges 20,000$ for a 3 nm wafer, and 25,000 - 30,000$ for a 2 nm wafer.
Those naives are only Apple and Nvidia/Intel. No one else. Not before 2027.

Six_Times

Question, is Arrow Lake 15th generation or 16? And what numerical generation will Lunar Lake be?

tiktok

hmm sooo also intel is depend on taiwan,,,)))) niceee time to Chinese do "reunification", aka destroy taiwan.. and Chinese tech inland will skyrocket becouse tsmc fabs in other places like japan will in stable production maybe in 2030, other are dalyed (in usa) and europe is toast)) love CHina really ))

pressing on

Six_TimesQuestion, is Arrow Lake 15th generation or 16? And what numerical generation will Lunar Lake be?

The gens thing finished with 14th Gen. Meteor Lake is Series 1, Arrow Lake is Series 2, Lunar Lake may be Series 3. Series 1 CPU numbers start with 1, for example 135H. Series 2 CPU numbers start with 2, so you could see 260K, 270K and 290K. Lunar Lake is a Meteor Lake replacement, so if it is Series 3 you will have 135H = Meteor Lake and 335H = Lunar Lake.

Daven

Intel back to buying TSMC fab capacity in order to limit competitor chip manufacturing.

Minus Infinity

pressing onThe gens thing finished with 14th Gen. Meteor Lake is Series 1, Arrow Lake is Series 2, Lunar Lake may be Series 3. Series 1 CPU numbers start with 1, for example 135H. Series 2 CPU numbers start with 2, so you could see 260K, 270K and 290K. Lunar Lake is a Meteor Lake replacement, so if it is Series 3 you will have 135H = Meteor Lake and 335H = Lunar Lake.

Luna Lake is a premium U series class apu meant for sub 28W category. It's not a replacement for the whole Meteor Lake stack. Honestly with Intel having Arrow Lake mobile as well as Meteor Lake and Luna Lake it will all be rather confusing how they position and price them all.

mechtech

For a company that owns so many fabs and makes so much money that’s kind of sad and embarrassing.

Jim Hutchinson

Six_TimesQuestion, is Arrow Lake 15th generation or 16? And what numerical generation will Lunar Lake be?

ARL should be following RPL Refresh as the 15th generation of Core on desktop and starting a new socket FCLGA1851. It is unclear if it will be named 15xxx or get a Core Ultra 1xx/2xx name like Meteor Lake. Lunar Lake is a partial successor to Meteor Lake, being a dedicated low-power design. It should be Core Ultra 2xx.

#10

N/A

is intel capable of producing anything better than a 10nm(reevaluated as 7nm) at all. what are all these talks about partnering, this mean they have become fabless like AMD as far as anything better than 10nm is concerned, yeah they may have some servers on intel 4. but at the same time intel intends to offers capacity to others. I don't get any of this and it doesn't matter in the end.

#11

Fourstaff

mechtechFor a company that owns so many fabs and makes so much money that’s kind of sad and embarrassing.

Their Fab improvements stalled, the same way how AMD got hamstrung by GlobalFoundries a decade ago.

#12

Chaitanya

mechtechFor a company that owns so many fabs and makes so much money that’s kind of sad and embarrassing.

Whats worse is US govt fell for their blackmail into giving them billions for more "fabs" that Intel themselves dont want to use.

#13

Scrizz

EternitSo he confirmed Intel 3 and Intel 20A are inferior to TSMC N3. I wonder who will be so naive to use Intel’s fabs.

It's not that. It's all about timing. People don't realize how early the manufacturing/development process starts for things like this. Especially considering the packaging.
Not only that, but these deals are made well in advance. It's not like they decided yesterday to buy some fab time at TSMC...

...I guess it is the vogue to FUD it up when it comes to Intel.

#14

Zubasa

FourstaffTheir Fab improvements stalled, the same way how AMD got hamstrung by GlobalFoundries a decade ago.

And back then there were no tax dollars to bail them out of it.

#15

thestryker6

Seems like an awful lot of people around these parts are incapable of reading, or at the very least understanding what they're reading. Every Arc GPU that has been mass fabricated uses TSMC and these will be no different. The CPU cores in ARL are Intel 20A, GPU TSMC N3, and the SoC/IO will likely be TSMC as they are in MTL. LNL CPU cores are the question mark as there has been word that they're all TSMC which might be due to the integrated DRAM and 20A being high performance only as Intel 4 is.

#16

Fourstaff

ZubasaAnd back then there were no tax dollars to bail them out of it.

Back then no one cared about AI and Cloud.

#17

AnarchoPrimitiv

DavenIntel back to buying TSMC fab capacity in order to limit competitor chip manufacturing.

I feel like the main purpose of this is to throw around Intel's financial power, use up capacity, perhaps drive up prices at TSMC and hurt AMD....if you look at Intel's behavior since 2000, pretty much every time AMD has out innovated them, Intel always resorts to just using their vast amount of cash to "compete" by other means.

#18

kondamin

i thought this was set in stone last year?

How is battle mage coming along and when can we see arrow lake

#19

Six_Times

pressing onThe gens thing finished with 14th Gen. Meteor Lake is Series 1, Arrow Lake is Series 2, Lunar Lake may be Series 3. Series 1 CPU numbers start with 1, for example 135H. Series 2 CPU numbers start with 2, so you could see 260K, 270K and 290K. Lunar Lake is a Meteor Lake replacement, so if it is Series 3 you will have 135H = Meteor Lake and 335H = Lunar Lake.

Big thanks for the detailed reply.

#20

Minus Infinity

Isn't N3B the original garbage class 3nm offering from TSMC that only Apple was stupid enough to use to brag they were the first with 3nm. Most sane companies are waiting for N3E.

#21

kondamin

Minus InfinityIsn't N3B the original garbage class 3nm offering from TSMC that only Apple was stupid enough to use to brag they were the first with 3nm. Most sane companies are waiting for N3E.

2 years on from those initial problems, tsmc probably found a way to deal with the lower yields

#22

Minus Infinity

kondamin2 years on from those initial problems, tsmc probably found a way to deal with the lower yields

Which should be the newer and refined N3E. Would you want the stigma of N3B name? At least call it N3BP or such.

#23

Haku

3valatzy"Inferior" means cheaper. I wonder who will be so naive to use TSMC when it charges 20,000$ for a 3 nm wafer, and 25,000 - 30,000$ for a 2 nm wafer.
Those naives are only Apple and Nvidia/Intel. No one else. Not before 2027.

knowing intel, it wouldn't be cheaper

#24

kondamin

Minus InfinityWhich should be the newer and refined N3E. Would you want the stigma of N3B name? At least call it N3BP or such.

They aren't selling chips to a wide public where that matters.
They are selling to intel and other giant in the industry.

Also, yes it's possible there is a letter behind the b and the interviewer didn't hear it because it was N3BE or what ever

#25

Kipicog

3valatzy"Inferior" means cheaper. I wonder who will be so naive to use TSMC when it charges 20,000$ for a 3 nm wafer, and 25,000 - 30,000$ for a 2 nm wafer.
Those naives are only Apple and Nvidia/Intel. No one else. Not before 2027.

I think you don't know what naive means. Tons of people are willing to pay for leading tech.

Apple and Nvidia can afford it, with ease. Intel can too, it seems.

AMD will be forced to use cheaper nodes and therefore will probably fall behind going forward.

A big part of Zen's succes was because AMD had a node advantage (Ryzen 3000 and forward). Which they now loose. They were fighting Intel 14nm with TSMC 7nm. Intel had no problems competiting with Ryzen 1000 and 2000 series.

Ryzen 1000 and 2000 series were mediocre at best, made at GloFo, bad clockspeeds, IPC and single thread performance. First when AMD moved to TSMC 7nm, Zen became great and prices went up alot too. They keep rising too. TSMC wants a bigger and bigger cut.

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Intel CEO Discloses TSMC Production Details: N3 for Arrow Lake & N3B for Lunar Lake

25 Comments on Intel CEO Discloses TSMC Production Details: N3 for Arrow Lake & N3B for Lunar Lake

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