AusWolfAt load, however, we're talking about 100+ Watts.

We both know that it's not true, but we have to rediscover fire every thread. Power draw under load can be fixed in 3 seconds, light load power draw cannot. So intel chips are a lot more efficient in both full flat out 100% load and on idle. It's not a small difference either, much larger than the difference that drove people to use modern led bulbs instead of halogen

But as ive said, efficiency isn't an important metric for most people when buying pc hardware

JustBenchingWe both know that it's not true, but we have to rediscover fire every thread. Power draw under load can be fixed in 3 seconds, light load power draw cannot. So intel chips are a lot more efficient in both full flat out 100% load and on idle. It's not a small difference either, much larger than the difference that drove people to use modern led bulbs instead of halogen

Sure, full power can be fixed, which I think is great, but I'd rather keep low load power to a minimum as well. Like I said, my PC is rarely idle. It's almost always doing something. When it's not, I turn it off.

JustBenchingBut as ive said, efficiency isn't an important metric for most people when buying pc hardware

That much is true.

Solid State BrainThere wouldn't be an over-abundance of would-be 3D artists, especially from East Europe and Asia, if people had to purchase with their own money the typical 3D pipeline suite (ZBrush - Substance Painter - Marvelous Designer - Photoshop - Maya (although this one is currently getting superseded by other software) - etc),

And yet, almost everyone I've ever met does. Yup, most go with 3DS Max or Blender for the 3D, any of several free paints or Photoshop and same for video; something like Shotcut, DaVinci Resolve or the full Adobe app. They train on the free versions and by the end - when they were ready to work, they purchase anything the studio didn't supply. And not only do they often just buy the full versions for themselves but they pay $3,000 a trimester/quarter for some nerd like me to walk them step by step through all the functions, techniques and tricks - as well as recommend what else they need to buy/acquire. Of course the people who know exactly where they want to go and how to get there, train themselves - but still almost never with stolen goods. Piracy is justified only by the weak minded as an excuse for theft. Those willing to work in an industry likely know thieves and pirates are not choice picks for trusted positions. It's likely more common in western countries where 25 to 30% of the society act like corrupt socialists with communistic tendencies - feeling entitled to other people's stuff - but it is still NOT the majority from my experiences with American studios and boutiques.

Solid State Braineven if subscriptions or "student" versions also exist. For a long time it's been pretty much unofficially acknowledged that people would learn on pirated software at home and (eventually) use legally purchased one at/for work.

Sounds like a person trying to convince themself of something.

Solid State BrainLuckily, nowadays, especially if you're a hobbyist, free and open source software Blender 3D and Krita are capable enough for most of that.

That's been the case the entire time! There are free versions of almost every major app and have been for decades: Houdini Apprentice, Adobe Photoshop Elements, Lightwave3D, Maya, 3DS MAX, C4D, SoftImage (xsi) - all had free training versions - and it's the same with other types of applications as well. People who's initial notion is just to steal, may not know it though. :p

TesselatorAnd yet, almost everyone I've ever met does. Yup, most go with 3DS Max or Blender for the 3D, any of several free paints or Photoshop and same for video; something like Shotcut, DaVinci Resolve or the full Adobe app. They train on the free versions and by the end - when they were ready to work, they purchase anything the studio didn't supply. And not only do they often just buy the full versions for themselves but they pay $3,000 a trimester/quarter for some nerd like me to walk them step by step through all the functions, techniques and tricks - as well as recommend what else they need to buy/acquire. Of course the people who know exactly where they want to go and how to get there, train themselves - but still almost never with stolen goods. Piracy is justified only by the weak minded as an excuse for theft. Those willing to work in an industry likely know thieves and pirates are not choice picks for trusted positions. It's likely more common in western countries where 25 to 30% of the society act like corrupt socialists with communistic tendencies - feeling entitled to other people's stuff - but it is still NOT the majority from my experiences with American studios and boutiques.

Studios? Boutiques? I wasn't referring to work environments or established artists migrating from an application/workflow to another, but the plethora of amateurs who start out right away with "industry standard" software because it's easy to pirate and because it's what the professionals use. I'm pretty confident that all those young would-be artists in online art groups who barely have enough money for the hardware (often just a laptop and a cheap pen tablet) aren't spending thousands on licenses too. And definitely they're not doing it in the East where software piracy has always been rampant in the first place.

TesselatorThat's been the case the entire time! There are free versions of almost every major app and have been for decades: Houdini Apprentice, Adobe Photoshop Elements, Lightwave3D, Maya, 3DS MAX, C4D, SoftImage (xsi) - all had free training versions - and it's the same with other types of applications as well. People who's initial notion is just to steal, may not know it though. :p

Not everybody is eligible for an educational license, wants to deal with a restricted feature set or can even afford continuously paying for those licenses when available.
You're overestimating how willing people are to pay for personal software outside of affluent areas in 1st world countries. The reality is much less glamorous than what you're painting.

As for myself, I've been a Linux user for many years and I just use Blender 3D and other FOSS applications, mainly for 3D character sculpting/modeling at a hobbyist level. But Blender hasn't always been good in the past (up to versions series 2.8-2.9) and still requires significantly higher GPU resources than, say, ZBrush. So, the typical Windows amateur will just use that, regardless of what he can actually afford.

...

Putting this aside, despite free & open-source software being actually decent as of 2026 I expect that the number of 3D artists (or digital artists in general) will decline in the coming years as generative AI models (even for 3D models) improve and make investing a good chunk of one's life into artwork an even worse deal than it previously was.

Solid State BrainStudios? Boutiques? I wasn't referring to work environments or established artists migrating from an application/workflow to another,

Neither was I. Perhaps I didn't explain well enough.

Solid State Brainbut the plethora of amateurs who start out right away with "industry standard" software

Exactly! And where do they usually end up? Oh yeah, boutiques and studios. ;)

Solid State Brainbecause it's easy to pirate and because it's what the professionals use.

That's the weak minded, weak hearted excuse I was talking about.

Solid State BrainI'm pretty confident that all those young would-be artists in online art groups who barely have enough money for the hardware (often just a laptop and a cheap pen tablet) aren't spending thousands on licenses too.

Well, I have between 35 and 45 years of dedicated participation and contribution to the relative industries and from that (as well as shared opinions with others), I'm claiming that's false. That's 12~16 year old gamer logic.

Solid State BrainAnd definitely they're not doing it in the East where software piracy has always been rampant in the first place.

Yup, adolescent gamers. Such a shame most on those people didn't receive better parenting. Trouble is, they grow up habitualizing that behavior... but what the lion share of them do not do is grow a pair and get a job in the industry - once you've trained yourself to be a lazy thief it's rather hard to break and you usually end up in ambitionless remedial work. But again, with the rays of disinfectant sunshine illuminating western studios recently, I'm inclined to concede the problem might be worse in the west than it is here - still not close to a majority tho.

Solid State BrainNot everybody is eligible for an educational license, wants to deal with a restricted feature set or can even afford continuously paying for those licenses when available.

I see no such "licenses" below and never have.

helpx.adobe.com/photoshop-elements/desktop/download-and-install-photoshop-elements/photoshop-elements-downloads.html
www.sidefx.com/products/houdini-apprentice/
www.autodesk.com/products/maya/free-trial
www.autodesk.com/products/3ds-max/free-trial
lightwave3d.com/products/trial-versions/
downloads.foundry.com/modo/retired :D
etc. etc. etc.

And most of them are not feature limited nor ever were. A minority have time restrictions but most just use file formats incompatible with the commercial versions - fine for learning. The packages which use heavy feature limits or require student status are typically not industry stables anyway. And once again; people who think like pirates and thieves typically don't explore these options so likely are generally unaware.

Solid State BrainYou're overestimating how willing people are to pay for personal software outside of affluent areas in 1st world countries. The reality is much less glamorous than what you're painting.

Yeah, I'm not talking about a poor village in the Philippines or Afghanistan but the axiom still holds: Name me a successful studio in one of those places or any studio which uses places like that as a talent pool - potential or real.

Solid State BrainAs for myself, I've been a Linux user for many years and I just use Blender 3D and other FOSS applications, mainly for 3D character sculpting/modeling at a hobbyist level. But Blender hasn't always been good in the past (up to versions series 2.8-2.9) and still requires significantly higher GPU resources than, say, ZBrush. So, the typical Windows amateur will just use that, regardless of what he can actually afford.

I learned ZBrush at one point 20+ years ago but haven't followed it intensely. Only a few years after the popularity spike it became fairly irreverent - a niche tool for a niche audience. Currently I'm told, "no one [besides hobbyists?] uses it for anything serious".

Solid State BrainPutting this aside, despite free & open-source software being actually decent as of 2026 I expect that the number of 3D artists (or digital artists in general) will decline in the coming years as generative AI models (even for 3D models) improve and make investing a good chunk of one's life into artwork an even worse deal than it previously was.

That's been true for awhile tho. Easy-street industry first adopter opportunities were pretty much gone by, ummm... 2005 or something. Right now and for the past 3 or 4 years, we're seeing drastic changes in both the tools themselves and typical production workflows. Is that a good thing? For some yes, for others no. Is it a bad deal or poor career move? For some yes, for others, no. Still, for those able to express themselves well artistically and market that talent effectively, it's very lucrative and likely will continue to be for as long as just economies exist.

And the ancient axiom will of course remain the case: people willing to work, pay their way, and investigate all the legitimate opportunities, will generally be those that succeed and people who make excuses for poor decisions, bad behavior and take shortcuts (like theft or piracy) will fall by the wayside. With very few exceptions...

TesselatorNeither was I. Perhaps I didn't explain well enough.


Exactly!


That's the weak minded, weak hearted excuse I was talking about.


Well, I have between 35 and 45 years of dedicated participation and contribution to the relative industries and from that (as well as shared opinions with others), I'm claiming that's false. That's 12~16 year old gamer logic.


Yup, adolescent gamers. Such a shame most on those people didn't receive better parenting. Trouble is, they grow up habitualizing that behavior... but what the lion share of them do not do is grow a pair and get a job in the industry - once you've trained yourself to be a lazy thief it's rather hard to break and you usually end up in ambitionless remedial work. But again, with the rays of disinfectant sunshine illuminating western studios recently, I'm inclined to concede the problem might be worse in the west than it is here - still not close to a majority tho.


I see no such "licenses", below and never have.

helpx.adobe.com/photoshop-elements/desktop/download-and-install-photoshop-elements/photoshop-elements-downloads.html
www.sidefx.com/products/houdini-apprentice/
www.autodesk.com/products/maya/free-trial
www.autodesk.com/products/3ds-max/free-trial
lightwave3d.com/products/trial-versions/
downloads.foundry.com/modo/retired :D
etc. etc. etc.

And most of them are not feature limited nor ever were. A minority have time restrictions but most just use file formats incompatible with the commercial versions - fine for learning. The packages which use heavy feature limits or require student status are typically not industry stables anyway. And once again; people who think like pirates and thieve typically don't explore these options so likely are generally unaware.


Yeah, I'm not talking about a poor village in the Philippines or Afghanistan but the axiom still holds: Name me a successful studio in one of those places or any studio which uses places like that as a talent pool - potential or real.


I learned ZBrush at one point 20+ years ago but haven't followed it intensely. Only a few years after the popularity spike it became fairly irreverent - a niche tool for a niche audience. Currently I'm told, "no one [besides hobbyists?] uses it for anything serious".


That's been true for awhile tho. Easy-street industry first adopter opportunities were pretty much gone by, ummm... 2005 or something. Right now and for the past 3 or 4 years, we're seeing drastic changes in both the tools themselves and typical production workflows. Is that a good thing? For some yes, for others no. Is it a bad deal or poor career move? For some yes, for others, no. Still, for those able to express themselves well artistically and market that talent effectively, it's very lucrative and likely will continue to be for as long as just economies exist.

And the ancient axiom will of course remain the case: people willing to work, pay their way, and investigate all the legitimate opportunities, will generally be those that succeed and people who make excuses for poor decisions, bad behavior and take shortcuts (like theft or piracy) will fall by the wayside. With very few exceptions...

To sum it up, are you suggesting that pirating as a kid results in corrupted morals, no professional attitude, and being stuck in menial work as an adult? If so, that's as far-fetched as it can be.

Have you perhaps considered the possibility that professional software is so expensive that quite many startups and small businesses can't afford it?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating piracy here, only the general idea of things not being black or white in life, and moral ambiguity sometimes being a genuine thing.

AusWolfTo sum it up, are you suggesting that pirating as a kid results in corrupted morals, no professional attitude, and being stuck in menial work as an adult? If so, that's as far-fetched as it can be.

Yup, that's pretty much what I'm saying [in part anyway - maybe without the "as a kid" exclusive aspect] and I believe it's generally true. It's my "lived experience" as the kids say these days. You practice laziness and corrupt shortcuts and you either become Bill Gates or a MacDonald's employee - seems to be a general truth! Makes sense commonsensically too. If you practice laziness, what do you become? Oh yeah, lazy. Who's working and being successful? Likely NOT lazy people. If you practice theft or illegitimate shortcuts, what do you become? A liar and a thief - and where do they generally end up? Unemployed would be my answer in this context. Or maybe with the right mix of ambition, connections, and sociopathy, the head of Microsoft. :D

AusWolfHave you perhaps considered the possibility that professional software is so expensive that quite many startups and small businesses can't afford it?

Yes, yes, of course. I've had this discussion many MANY times in the past - and at the risk of aging myself, I've been active in the relative industry segments since their inceptions.

AusWolfDon't get me wrong, I'm not advocating piracy here, only the general idea of things not being black or white in life, and moral ambiguity sometimes being a genuine thing.

Sure, there are of course exceptions - in everything. I am of course speaking in generalities and from my experiences. I just (perhaps vainly) think those are vast and varied enough to know a little something.

TesselatorYup, that's pretty much what I'm saying [in part anyway - maybe without the "as a kid" exclusive aspect] and I believe it's generally true. It's my "lived experience" as the kids say these days. You practice laziness and corrupt shortcuts and you either become Bill Gates or a MacDonald's employee - seems to be a general truth! Makes sense commonsensically too. If you practice laziness, what do you become? Oh yeah, lazy. Who's working and being successful? Likely NOT lazy people. If you practice theft or illegitimate shortcuts, what do you become? A liar and a thief - and where do they generally end up? Unemployed would be my answer in this context. Or maybe with the right mix of ambition, connections, and sociopathy, the head of Microsoft. :D


Yes, yes, of course. I've had this discussion many MANY times in the past - and at the risk of aging myself, I've been active in the relative industry segments since their inceptions.



Sure, there are of course exceptions - in everything. I am of course speaking in generalities and from my experiences. I just (perhaps vainly) think those are vast and varied enough to know a little something.

Wow! Don't take it personally, but that sounds like a 1st world self-entitled superiority complex to me.

I don't know where your "lived experience" comes from. Mine comes from an area where not just regular people, but even small businesses don't have money to pay for software licences. Some don't even have money to pay their taxes properly. It doesn't mean that they're morally corrupt. It only means that such software companies don't set their prices to such markets where I come from.

Sometimes, necessity is a factor. Sometimes, morals are a luxury. Think about it.

AusWolfWow! Don't take it personally, but that sounds like a 1st world self-entitled superiority complex to me.

???

AusWolfI don't know where your "lived experience" comes from. Mine comes from an area where not just regular people, but even small businesses don't have money to pay for software licences. Some don't even have money to pay their taxes properly. It doesn't mean that they're morally corrupt.

You're right, it doesn't. The morality issue is distinguished by the decisions made from that point.

AusWolfIt only means that such software companies don't set their prices to such markets where I come from.

I disagree. It means the potential user observed the landscape and made a decision to either do the right thing or cheat the system.

AusWolfSometimes, morals are a luxury.

Only to cowards.


But I think we're getting into the weeds with potentially irrelevant specifics which appear to be typical on forum thread exchanges about AI, in game dev, etc. - with the usual mix of pro-AI pragmatism, anti-AI skepticism, and philosophical tangents. :D

Perhaps a bit of recontextualizing would be helpful? I admit being more skeptical and nuanced on AI agency/ethics than @Solid State Brain with points about "human artists train on "pirated" or copyrighted material too" framing AI training as analogous. Arguing that modern digital artists largely self-train on copyrighted/pirated IP, courses, and tools and therefor AI scraping/training isn't uniquely immoral is to me whataboutism in it's worst form. This is a common "both sides do it" defense of generative AI and I just happen to disagree with the extent as well as the relativism. I want to call out distinctions around human sovereignty vs. distributed AI systems and reject direct equivalencies between individual human learning and machine training. I believe it's worth pushing for moral/philosophical differentiation.

I believe this mirrors the broader debate as well: transparency vs. stigma, human creativity vs. tool augmentation, and whether labeling AI use is "irresponsible" fearmongering (Sweeney's view) or basic consumer info (Valve's policy) - and thus brought it to light.

Valve is right on disclosure. Consumers deserve to know if a game's assets (art, music, code, writing) lean heavily on generative AI, especially in an era of flooding marketplaces with low-effort slop - AI misuse and overuse. It's not "hate", it's informed choice, like nutritional labels or "made in X" tags. Sweeney's position smells like self-interest: Epic/Unreal is doubling down on AI integration (UE6), and disclosure could hurt sales for titles perceived as "AI-slop." Tim loves fighting Valve, but this feels like protecting the pipeline rather than artists or consumers.

The artist training analogy is directionally true but incomplete and ill-proportioned. Yes, humans "train" on vast copyrighted works (most often via fair use, education, paid, and even occasionally gray-area piracy). But scale, speed, and economic displacement differ massively. One human artist internalizes influences over years and produces original synthesis; a model ingests billions of works almost instantly to output derivatives on demand. The output volume and job market compression are the real disruptions - potentially. Equating them too cleanly dismisses legitimate concerns about consent, credit, and compensation for original creators whose data are powering the models.

I still think the sovereignty point is interesting. My angle on individuals being "sovereign" vs. AI as distributed/impersonal hits the crux of the unease most people seem to deliberate: AI feels like an aggregated cultural commons being repackaged without agency or reciprocity. Humans create under personal risk/reward; models don't. That said, tools evolve - i.e. photography didn't end painting, but it did change it dramatically.

"Irresponsible" is peak Sweeney hyperbole. Valve's policy is mild and factual. The real risk to devs is backlash from vocal anti-AI crowds (some of whom are hypocritical or just plain Luddites), but hiding AI use breeds distrust. It's way better to disclose, market the human elements strongly, and let quality win. Games, films and other forms of digital media with thoughtful AI augmentation (e.g., procedural help, not full asset replacement) can succeed if the final product is good. And of course I think we all truly believe pure AI shovelware should be called out.

I think this is healthy forum friction so far - much better than echo chambers. Pro-AI folks often underrate cultural/ethical externalities; critics often overrate "soul" while ignoring how all creative tools (brushes, DAWs, engines) automates what was priorly laborious. I think the winner will be hybrid approaches which amplify human vision and creativity rather than replace it wholesale. Epic pushing hard on AI while criticizing disclosure feels inconsistent (at best) if their goal is truly better games for everyone.

TesselatorYou're right, it doesn't. The morality issue is distinguished by the decisions made from that point.

What does that even mean?

TesselatorI disagree. It means the potential user observed the landscape and made a decision to either do the right thing or cheat the system.

There is no right thing when you can't afford it. Similarly, you would steal food if you had no money and your life depended on it, right? Like I said, morals are a luxury for some. There is nothing to disagree with here. This is fact.

TesselatorOnly to cowards.

Is hiding behind morals that only serve the needs of multimillion dollar companies not cowardice? Don't you think people using pirated software are risking more, and therefore, are actually more brave?

Again, I'm not advocating piracy. I'm only advocating a non-judgemental attitude and an open mind. The world isn't as black and white as you seem to think. And the people we're talking about certainly don't need your opinion.

TesselatorAnd yet, almost everyone I've ever met does. Yup, most go with 3DS Max or Blender for the 3D, any of several free paints or Photoshop and same for video; something like Shotcut, DaVinci Resolve or the full Adobe app. They train on the free versions and by the end - when they were ready to work, they purchase anything the studio didn't supply. And not only do they often just buy the full versions for themselves but they pay $3,000 a trimester/quarter for some nerd like me to walk them step by step through all the functions, techniques and tricks - as well as recommend what else they need to buy/acquire. Of course the people who know exactly where they want to go and how to get there, train themselves - but still almost never with stolen goods. Piracy is justified only by the weak minded as an excuse for theft. Those willing to work in an industry likely know thieves and pirates are not choice picks for trusted positions. It's likely more common in western countries where 25 to 30% of the society act like corrupt socialists with communistic tendencies - feeling entitled to other people's stuff - but it is still NOT the majority from my experiences with American studios and boutiques.



Sounds like a person trying to convince themself of something.



That's been the case the entire time! There are free versions of almost every major app and have been for decades: Houdini Apprentice, Adobe Photoshop Elements, Lightwave3D, Maya, 3DS MAX, C4D, SoftImage (xsi) - all had free training versions - and it's the same with other types of applications as well. People who's initial notion is just to steal, may not know it though. :p

You don't understand what is being said and keep talking about trained professionals who work in the field and have the money for it. It is being said the entry point was not there until recently. You're a teenager and want to learn anything with graphics, someone has to pay for the software and hardware and majority of people could barely afford the second, not to mention the first. Free versions for personal use are a new thing. Before that you had to use pirated software. The school couldn't provide with the opportunity. The majority of people live on a monthly basis. Food is more important than some BS which costs more than their car.

tommo1982You don't understand what is being said and keep talking about trained professionals who work in the field and have the money for it. It is being said the entry point was not there until recently. You're a teenager and want to learn anything with graphics, someone has to pay for the software and hardware and majority of people could barely afford the second, not to mention the first. Free versions for personal use are a new thing. Before that you had to use pirated software. The school couldn't provide with the opportunity. The majority of people live on a monthly basis. Food is more important than some BS which costs more than their car.

Exactly what I meant, just better worded. Thank you.

tommo1982You don't understand ...

You could be right. I don't think so tho. I taught modeling and character animation to young men and women just beginning (pre-career), for 8 yeas at university as well as did the lecture circuit across Japan (students and young professionals) for a few of those years. I'm banking on those experiences and many others (even private tutelage and mentorship), to inform a reasonable assessment. I don't feel comfortable going into great details about my career (I enjoy my anomality) but there's a lot of experience to draw from - about 40 years in CG of a 60 year digital career. But you could be right, maybe things have rapidly and radically changed in the past 5 years while I've been enjoying being mostly retired.

Or, the "birds of a feather" adage applies and certain people have shared experiences very different from the main stream - that could of course apply to either side in this discussion. I'm am however, going to continue to believe that the majority of the industry I spent my life in isn't filled with selfish and corrupt corner-cutting thieves, and that part of the template for success is earning your way through hard work and dedication. I really don't know too many lazy thieves who have made it. Do you?

You're also dead wrong about several of your assumptions. Free versions as I said in my previous post have been a thing for multiple decades! And I don't know your age but you were likely in diapers (82?) when I began teaching the subject. Schools were both far less expensive and fully equipped with current hardware and software. I'm still on the advisory board for one university system here and they still are. Pirates were never welcome and still generally aren't. Even letting that be known generally excluded you from consideration at most if not all studios I've ever hear of. No one wants to risk working with people who can justify thievery because of either one of the lame excuses being presented here: "it's to hard to spend a month or two's salary on the tools needed" or "I'm just too lazy to look for educational/free versions and they might not have 100% of the tools anyway".

TesselatorYou could be right. I don't think so tho. I taught modeling and character animation to young men and women just beginning (pre-career), for 8 yeas at university as well as did the lecture circuit across Japan (students and young professionals) for a few of those years. I'm banking on those experiences and many others (even private tutelage and mentorship), to inform a reasonable assessment. I don't feel comfortable going into great details about my career (I enjoy my anomality) but there's a lot of experience to draw from - about 40 years in CG of a 60 year digital career. But you could be right, maybe things have rapidly and radically changed in the past 5 years while I've been enjoying being mostly retired.

Or, the "birds of a feather" adage applies and certain people have shared experiences very different from the main stream - that could of course apply to either side in this discussion. I'm am however, going to continue to believe that the majority of the industry I spent my life in isn't filled with selfish and corrupt corner-cutting thieves, and that part of the template for success is earning your way through hard work and dedication. I really don't know too many lazy thieves who have made it. Do you?

You're also dead wrong about several of your assumptions. Free versions as I said in my previous post have been a thing for multiple decades! And I don't know your age but you were likely in diapers when I began teaching the subject. Schools were both far less expensive and fully equipped with current hardware and software. I'm still on the advisory board for one university system here and they still are. Pirates were never welcome and still generally aren't. Even letting that be known generally excluded you from consideration at most if not all studios I've ever hear of. No one want to risk working with people who can justify thievery.

You really don't understand what is being said. I am happy you enjoyed the life where people could afford what you said. Perhaps that's for the best.

TesselatorYou could be right. I don't think so tho. I taught modeling and character animation to young men and women just beginning (pre-career), for 8 yeas at university as well as did the lecture circuit across Japan (students and young professionals) for a few of those years. I'm banking on those experiences and many others (even private tutelage and mentorship), to inform a reasonable assessment. I don't feel comfortable going into great details about my career (I enjoy my anomality) but there's a lot of experience to draw from - about 40 years in CG of a 60 year digital career. But you could be right, maybe things have rapidly and radically changed in the past 5 years while I've been enjoying being mostly retired.

Or, the "birds of a feather" adage applies and certain people have shared experiences very different from the main stream - that could of course apply to either side in this discussion. I'm am however, going to continue to believe that the majority of the industry I spent my life in isn't filled with selfish and corrupt corner-cutting thieves, and that part of the template for success is earning your way through hard work and dedication. I really don't know too many lazy thieves who have made it. Do you?

You're also dead wrong about several of your assumptions. Free versions as I said in my previous post have been a thing for multiple decades! And I don't know your age but you were likely in diapers (82?) when I began teaching the subject. Schools were both far less expensive and fully equipped with current hardware and software. I'm still on the advisory board for one university system here and they still are. Pirates were never welcome and still generally aren't. Even letting that be known generally excluded you from consideration at most if not all studios I've ever hear of. No one want to risk working with people who can justify thievery because of either on of the lame excuse being presented here: "it's to hard to spend a month or two's salary on the tools needed" or "I'm just too lazy to look for educational versions and they might not have 100% of the tools anyway".

Japan doesn't exactly compare to less privileged areas of the world, such as Eastern Europe where I'm from. For anonymity's sake, I'll just say I know someone there who's a sound engineer, the only one in town. He does it unofficially because he doesn't earn enough to pay his taxes. He learned the profession by himself because he never had the money to attend school. He bought all of his equipment through years of bartering, and it still isn't much. Since he doesn't have money to pay his taxes, how would he have any for professional software that's ridiculously expensive, especially from his point of view? So what should he do? Close shop and be unemployed like half of the town?

Whether you believe it or not, people not having money "to do the right thing" is a real phenomenon. The wallet of a rich software company's CEO is of lesser concern when you can barely bring your small business to net zero even without paying for unaffordable software licences.

Naw, that's an elaboration of a lame excuse! You do what you can until you're able to do what you want. It's not the inverse of that and it's certainly not: I'll do what I want and steal my way into it.

You want to be a sound engineer here? What do you think is needed in order to learn on your own? I only know my own experiences and most of that is hobby level so I aksed AI. The answer made good sense to me so here's that:

[INDENT=2]"Here's a solid, no-frills beginner-to-intermediate sound engineering setup focused on recording, mixing, and critical listening. This is practical, reliable, and widely used by pros for home/studio work. Prices are current approximate US retail (as of mid-2026; check retailers like Sweetwater, Amazon, or Thomann for deals/taxes/shipping). [/INDENT]
[INDENT=2][/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Core Hardware[/INDENT]
[INDENT]

• Computer: Apple MacBook Air 13-inch (M4, 16GB unified memory, 512GB SSD) — Excellent stability, low latency, and performance for DAWs like Logic Pro or Pro Tools.
  ≈ $999–1,299 (base configs often available around $999–1,099 on sale).
• Audio Interface: Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 4th Gen — Best all-rounder for beginners with great preamps and included software.
  ≈ $190
  • Shure SM57 (dynamic) — The industry workhorse for instruments, amps, and more.
    ≈ $109
  • Audio-Technica AT2020 (condenser) — Solid for vocals and acoustic instruments.
    ≈ $119
• Studio Monitors: Pair of JBL 305P MKII (5" powered nearfield) — Accurate, affordable, and great for mixing.
  ≈ $338 (pair)
• Headphones: Audio-Technica ATH-M50x — Closed-back, neutral reference for tracking and mixing.
  ≈ $159

[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Accessories (Essentials)[/INDENT]
[INDENT]

• XLR cables (2–3), mic stand, pop filter, and basic isolation shield: ≈ $80–100

[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Total Estimated Cost: ≈ $2,000–2,400 (depending on exact Mac config and deals). This gets you up and running professionally without excess.[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2][/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Software (Start Here)[/INDENT]
[INDENT]

• DAW: Logic Pro (one-time purchase, Mac-native and powerful) or Pro Tools Artist/Intro (free tier to start, subscription for full features).
  Many interfaces include free plugin and bundled software.

[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]This setup teaches proper signal flow, mic technique, and critical listening. Prioritize treating your room with acoustic foam/bass traps (extra ~$100–200) for best results. As you grow, you can expand I/O or upgrade mics/monitors. This is battle-tested and scalable—start recording and mixing immediately!"[/INDENT]
[INDENT][/INDENT]
Those are all new prices (current retail as of July 2026) and if purchasing used it's roughly about half that. Let's say it's a mix of used and new so $1,700. That is exactly the take-home pay you get working at the corner store for 4 weeks. So, now you have a choice: Couch-surf for four to six weeks and buy it all at once or keep your $300~$600 a month apartment (rent can be very cheap - in Japan just like the USA!!) and buy one or two of the items on that list every month. There is absolutely no need to steal anything - especially the software. Even if they decided to go with a Cadillac of DAWs like Steinberg's Cubase instead of one of the MANY free or cheap ones out there we're only adding at most $500 and more likely $60 for learning or even free with a hardware purchase - Steinberg has been offering free full featured "evaluation" versions (Cubase SX) since 2004 BTW - for those of you thinking this is something new - LOL.

OK, so now you have your gear - DON'T QUIT YOUR DAY JOB! Learn as much as you can on-line or in books - shouldn't take too long if you're aggressive (~2 months max?) and go beat the streets on your days off - still the best way to find a job even in 2026!
[INDENT=2][/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]"Current full version prices (USD, directly from Steinberg as of July 2026) for Cubase 15: steinberg.net[/INDENT]
[INDENT]

• Cubase Pro 15: $579.99 (full-featured flagship version)
• Cubase Artist 15: $329.00 (mid-tier, great for serious musicians/producers)
• Cubase Elements 15: $99.99 (entry-level, budget-friendly starter)

[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]These are the standard retail prices from Steinberg's official store. Educational discounts are available (e.g., Pro ~$360, Artist ~$200, Elements ~$67 for eligible students/teachers). steinberg.net[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2][/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Note: Prices can vary with promotions/sales (Steinberg and retailers often run discounts, such as 25-30% off). Upgrades from previous versions are cheaper than full price. Check the official site for your specific upgrade path and current offers. [/INDENT]
[INDENT]

• All versions share the same high-quality audio engine and core workflow.
• Cubase LE and AI are lightweight versions often included with Steinberg/Yamaha hardware. steinberg.net

[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]You can download trials of the full versions from Steinberg's site to test them. For the most accurate/current pricing (including any sales or your upgrade eligibility), visit the official Steinberg Cubase pages directly."[/INDENT]

If your "friend" is struggling with those kinds of numbers there is something wrong - likely the result or consequence of some very poor choices - and this is no different than in the USA. Your excuses are getting more and more pithy as we go on here.

TesselatorNaw, that's an elaboration of a lame excuse! You do what you can until you're able to do what you want. It's not the inverse of that and it's certainly not: I'll do what I want and steal my way into it.

You want to be a sound engineer here? What do you think is needed in order to learn on your own? I only know my own experiences and most of that is hobby level so I aksed AI. The answer made good sense to me so here's that:

[INDENT=2]"Here's a solid, no-frills beginner-to-intermediate sound engineering setup focused on recording, mixing, and critical listening. This is practical, reliable, and widely used by pros for home/studio work. Prices are current approximate US retail (as of mid-2026; check retailers like Sweetwater, Amazon, or Thomann for deals/taxes/shipping). [/INDENT]
[INDENT=2][/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Core Hardware[/INDENT]
[INDENT]

• Computer: Apple MacBook Air 13-inch (M4, 16GB unified memory, 512GB SSD) — Excellent stability, low latency, and performance for DAWs like Logic Pro or Pro Tools.
  ≈ $999–1,299 (base configs often available around $999–1,099 on sale).
• Audio Interface: Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 4th Gen — Best all-rounder for beginners with great preamps and included software.
  ≈ $190
  • Shure SM57 (dynamic) — The industry workhorse for instruments, amps, and more.
    ≈ $109
  • Audio-Technica AT2020 (condenser) — Solid for vocals and acoustic instruments.
    ≈ $119
• Studio Monitors: Pair of JBL 305P MKII (5" powered nearfield) — Accurate, affordable, and great for mixing.
  ≈ $338 (pair)
• Headphones: Audio-Technica ATH-M50x — Closed-back, neutral reference for tracking and mixing.
  ≈ $159

[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Accessories (Essentials)[/INDENT]
[INDENT]

• XLR cables (2–3), mic stand, pop filter, and basic isolation shield: ≈ $80–100

[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Total Estimated Cost: ≈ $2,000–2,400 (depending on exact Mac config and deals). This gets you up and running professionally without excess.[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2][/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Software (Start Here)[/INDENT]
[INDENT]

• DAW: Logic Pro (one-time purchase, Mac-native and powerful) or Pro Tools Artist/Intro (free tier to start, subscription for full features).
  Many interfaces include free plugin and bundled software.

[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]This setup teaches proper signal flow, mic technique, and critical listening. Prioritize treating your room with acoustic foam/bass traps (extra ~$100–200) for best results. As you grow, you can expand I/O or upgrade mics/monitors. This is battle-tested and scalable—start recording and mixing immediately!"[/INDENT]
[INDENT][/INDENT]
Those are all new prices (current retail as of July 2026) and if purchasing used it's roughly about half that. Let's say it's a mix of used and new so $1,700. That is exactly the take-home pay you get working at the corner store for 4 weeks. So, now you have a choice: Couch-surf for four to six weeks and buy it all at once or keep your $300~$600 a month apartment (rent can be very cheap - in Japan just like the USA!!) and buy one or two of the items on that list every month. There is absolutely no need to steal anything - especially the software. Even if they decided to go with a Cadillac of DAWs like Steinberg's Cubase instead of one of the MANY free or cheap ones out there we're only adding at most $500 and more likely $60 for learning or even free with a hardware purchase - Steinberg has been offering free full featured "evaluation" versions (Cubase SX) since 2004 BTW - for those of you thinking this is something new - LOL.

OK, so now you have your gear - DON'T QUIT YOUR DAY JOB! Learn as much as you can on-line or in books - shouldn't take too long if you're aggressive (~2 months max?) and go beat the streets on your days off - still the best way to find a job even in 2026!
[INDENT=2][/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]"Current full version prices (USD, directly from Steinberg as of July 2026) for Cubase 15: steinberg.net[/INDENT]
[INDENT]

• Cubase Pro 15: $579.99 (full-featured flagship version)
• Cubase Artist 15: $329.00 (mid-tier, great for serious musicians/producers)
• Cubase Elements 15: $99.99 (entry-level, budget-friendly starter)

[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]These are the standard retail prices from Steinberg's official store. Educational discounts are available (e.g., Pro ~$360, Artist ~$200, Elements ~$67 for eligible students/teachers). steinberg.net[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2][/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]Note: Prices can vary with promotions/sales (Steinberg and retailers often run discounts, such as 25-30% off). Upgrades from previous versions are cheaper than full price. Check the official site for your specific upgrade path and current offers. [/INDENT]
[INDENT]

• All versions share the same high-quality audio engine and core workflow.
• Cubase LE and AI are lightweight versions often included with Steinberg/Yamaha hardware. steinberg.net

[/INDENT]
[INDENT=2]You can download trials of the full versions from Steinberg's site to test them. For the most accurate/current pricing (including any sales or your upgrade eligibility), visit the official Steinberg Cubase pages directly."[/INDENT]

If your "friend" is struggling with those kinds of numbers there is something wrong - likely the result or consequence of some very poor choices - and this is no different than in the USA. Your excuses are getting more and more pithy as we go on here.

It's getting clearer and clearer with every post that you have no clue what I'm talking about. I just don't know how I can explain better.

1. This person doesn't have a day job. He is a sound engineer, that's what he does for a living.
2. He can't even have a day job. With that, he wouldn't have money for any gear, or any time to do his engineering job. In my hometown, rent is more expensive than what a basic 8-16 job earns you. The only way to survive is to live with your family which being in his late 20s, he doesn't have. Not to mention mandatory overtime rules in the country which make it impossible to do anything else.
3. With such economic conditions, you don't buy your gear in 4 weeks. Like I said, he slowly got it item by item through years of bartering.
4. The minimum amount of self-employment tax is about $150 a month there. He doesn't have money to pay that regularly, that's why he's doing the job unofficially. What makes you think that he has money for professional software? What makes you think that saving up and paying for professional software is a priority when he can't even pay tax regularly? I'm sure he would be happy to pay for his software if he had a predictable, regular income... Which he doesn't.

If you can't be asked to learn about Eastern European economic conditions, then at least do the favour of keeping your prejudice to yourself. Thanks.

AusWolfIt's getting clearer and clearer with every post that you have no clue what I'm talking about. I just don't know how I can explain better.

1. This person doesn't have a day job. He is a sound engineer, that's what he does for a living.
2. He can't even have a day job. With that, he wouldn't have money for any gear, or any time to do his engineering job. In my hometown, rent is more expensive than what a basic 8-16 job earns you. The only way to survive is to live with your family which being in his late 20s, he doesn't have. Not to mention mandatory overtime rules in the country which make it impossible to do anything else.
3. With such economic conditions, you don't buy your gear in 4 weeks. Like I said, he slowly got it item by item through years of bartering.
4. The minimum amount of self-employment tax is about $150 a month there. He doesn't have money to pay that regularly, that's why he's doing the job unofficially. What makes you think that he has money for professional software? What makes you think that saving up and paying for professional software is a priority when he can't even pay tax regularly? I'm sure he would be happy to pay for his software if he had a predictable, regular income... Which he doesn't.

If you can't be asked to learn about Eastern European economic conditions, then at least do the favour of keeping your prejudice to yourself. Thanks.

It's fine. No need to argue anymore with him. I don't know which country you're from, but it must be post soviet one. I'm from Poland and I remeber the difficulties and unemployment which couldn't be measured in the 90's. Only until revently we started to earn enough to allow people to buy legitimate software. It's going to go soon with current hardware prices and corporate profiteering by any means.

JustBenchingWe both know that it's not true, but we have to rediscover fire every thread. Power draw under load can be fixed in 3 seconds, light load power draw cannot. So intel chips are a lot more efficient in both full flat out 100% load and on idle. It's not a small difference either, much larger than the difference that drove people to use modern led bulbs instead of halogen

But as ive said, efficiency isn't an important metric for most people when buying pc hardware

It is when electricity is the most expensive in the country you live in, compared to the whole region.

tommo1982It's fine. No need to argue anymore with him. I don't know which country you're from, but it must be post soviet one. I'm from Poland and I remeber the difficulties and unemployment which couldn't be measured in the 90's. Only until revently we started to earn enough to allow people to buy legitimate software. It's going to go soon with current hardware prices and corporate profiteering by any means.

I'm from Hungary - yep, post soviet country. Such places are f*ed multiple ways that aren't appropriate to discuss here.

tommo1982It is when electricity is the most expensive in the country you live in, compared to the whole region.

Not to mention cooling. Keeping your CPU nice and chill under full load is easy, but it shouldn't touch Tjmax under short bursts, either, imo.