Wednesday, July 25th 2018

Rumor: AMD's Zen 2, 7 nm Chips to Feature 10-15% IPC Uplift, Revised 8-core per CCX Design

A post via Chiphell makes some substantial claims on AMD's upcoming Zen 2 microarchitecture, built on the 7 nm process. AMD has definitely won the core-count war once again (albeit with a much more decisive blow to Intel's dominance than with Bulldozer), but the IPC battle has been an uphill one against Intel's slow, but sure, improvement in that area over the years. AMD did say, at the time they introduced the Zen architecture, that they had a solid understanding on Zen's choke points and its improveable bits and pieces - and took it to heart to deliver just that.
A 10 to 15% improvement should bring AMD close to Intel's Kaby Lake solutions in pure per-core, single-thread performance - with the possibility for higher performance in multithreaded workloads even at the same clocks and core counts, since AMD's SMT implementation and per-core communication seems to best that of even Intel's Coffee Lake chips. Add to that the sure clock increases AMD will bring to their Zen 2 parts - you can bet the power consumption and top frequency benefits for the 7 nm manufacturing process (some estimated 1.6X logic density, ~20% speed improvement, and ~40% power reduction compared to TSMC's 10 nm process) won't go to waste when they can be used for an even greater performance uplift.
Add to that the possibility -also posted via the Chiphell thread) of a per-CCX core-count increase of 8 cores per CCX (with 16-core parts being available for the consumer products) and a purely hypothetical claim for the performance crown now seems not only plausible, but likely. Sources: Chiphell, TSMC
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108 Comments on Rumor: AMD's Zen 2, 7 nm Chips to Feature 10-15% IPC Uplift, Revised 8-core per CCX Design

#51
garcheezy
ToxicTaZ, post: 3875920, member: 145598"
Intel built Coffeelake just to fight AMD Zen.

8700K stood up against 1800X with no problems.

2700X won't have a chance against the upcoming 9900K, I expect AMD to release 2800X try filling the gap.

2019
Intel 10nm+ Icelake to fight AMD first gen 7nm Zen 2

Both are PCIe 4.0
Intel has DDR5 Memory
Intel has DMI 4.0
Intel has two New GPUs

2019 is going to be very interesting with Both Intel and AMD having new architecture and nm....

Both Intel Z470 chipset and AMD X570 support for 32 Threads Dual channel.

So expected 8, 12, 16 Cores over the next few years from both.

The core wars has begun!
intel already said that they wont have any "big chip" on 10nm until the end of 2019. And knowing intel and how optimistic are with their timeframes i wouldnt expect any big chip based on 10nm until the fist months of 2020. Amd announced epyc 7nm for the end of this year, consumers cpu´s on 7nm should launch ealy/mid 2019 (at most). By the time that intel launches 10nm cpu´s AMD should have second gen 7nm ready.

ToxicTaZ, post: 3875945, member: 145598"
Intel had no competition since 2700K to 7700K.
AMD brings Zen to the table Intel countered with Coffeelake. So AMD Bring Zen 2 on first gen 7nm. Intel is countering with Second gen 10nm+ “Q3 2019 so next September 2019 paper launch...

Till then we have 9900K and probably 2800X and Ryzen 3000 series (Q2 2019) next may.

Don't even expect good 7nm yields...

Look at 12nm yields with 2700X...

2700X 12nm
8 cores 4.3GHz 105 Watts
Vs
9900K 14nm+++
8 cores 5.0GHz 95 Watts

Do forget Intel superior IPC cores Coffeelake architecture provides.

I hope very much so AMD Zen 2 brings some good IPC improvements to the table, it only pushes Intel to build better CPUs... competition is healthy for all of us customers. Win wins
you realize that amd and intel dont measure tdp in the same way?
Ah... and btw.. yield means how many fully functional cpu´s can obtain per waffer, it has nothing to do with power consumption.
Posted on Reply
#52
Captain_Tom
trparky, post: 3875943, member: 170376"
The fact that Hyperthreading is reserved for only the most top end of the lineup is an absolute gut punch. Why are they playing these games when they have competition? I can understand pulling this kind of shit when there was no competition but that's not the case anymore, there's AMD. They should be wanting us to buy their products but doing shit like this isn't going to exactly be winning people over, if anything it's going to piss people off.
It's because deep down Intel knows they have almost nowhere to go till 2021. They are STUCK on 14nm and the thus also stuck on the same Broadwell architecture till they get to 10nm.

They need to leave room for improvements year-over-year. In 2019 they will launch a 10-core i9 on 14nm they could have launched this year, they will keep the 8c/16t i9, and then they will make all i5's 8 and 6 cores with no hyperthreading. i3's will probably become 4/8 exclusively.

Then in 2020 they are desperately hoping they will have 10nm ready, if they don't - they will do drastic price cuts and slight clockspeed increases. But they can't go quite all-in now.

ToxicTaZ, post: 3875945, member: 145598"
Intel had no competition since 2700K to 7700K.
AMD brings Zen to the table Intel countered with Coffeelake. So AMD Bring Zen 2 on first gen 7nm. Intel is countering with Second gen 10nm+ “Q3 2019 so next September 2019 paper launch...

Till then we have 9900K and probably 2800X and Ryzen 3000 series (Q2 2019) next may.

Don't even expect good 7nm yields...

Look at 12nm yields with 2700X...

2700X 12nm
8 cores 4.3GHz 105 Watts
Vs
9900K 14nm+++
8 cores 5.0GHz 95 Watts

Do forget Intel superior IPC cores Coffeelake architecture provides.

I hope very much so AMD Zen 2 brings some good IPC improvements to the table, it only pushes Intel to build better CPUs... competition is healthy for all of us customers. Win wins
With fast RAM AMD has a 15% IPC advantage already. Click on the attachment fanboy - that's a 2600 competing with an 8700K that costs twice as much (While also using half the energy). It's AMD that is holding back right now. Not Intel.

I mean really... Are you blind? AMD is HOLDING BACK THE 2800X! They are saving the 4.5GHz+ 8-core for when Intel is ready to compete (a little) this fall. LOL come on man!
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#53
trparky
Captain_Tom, post: 3875954, member: 155434"
It's because deep down Intel knows they have almost nowhere to go till 2021. They are STUCK on 14nm and the thus also stuck on the same Broadwell architecture till they get to 10nm.
And who's fault is that? Intel's!!! That's who!
Captain_Tom, post: 3875954, member: 155434"
They need to leave room for improvements year-over-year.
That kind of thinking may have worked back in 2016 but in 2018 with AMD in the game that's just not going to work anymore. Intel needs to try harder.
Posted on Reply
#54
ToxicTaZ
garcheezy, post: 3875950, member: 180565"
intel already said that they wont have any "big chip" on 10nm until the end of 2019. And knowing intel and how optimistic are with their timeframes i wouldnt expect any big chip based on 10nm until the fist months of 2020. Amd announced epyc 7nm for the end of this year, consumers cpu´s on 7nm should launch ealy/mid 2019 (at most). By the time that intel launches 10nm cpu´s AMD should have second gen 7nm ready.


you realize that amd and intel dont measure tdp in the same way?
Ah... and btw.. yield means how many fully functional cpu´s can obtain per waffer, it has nothing to do with power consumption.
Run your 2700X beyond 4.5Ghz+ and 1.45v+ to see what happens?

Loving Intel 14nm++ yields with Coffeelake first round.

My 8700K @5.1GHz @1.41v 75c loads Cooled by EK. If you're wondering Cinebench 15 single core is 222 @5.1GHz.

So if AMD Zen 2 has 15% IPC performance gains should see similar Cinebench [B]15 results I would expect. [/B]
Posted on Reply
#55
garcheezy
Captain_Tom, post: 3875954, member: 155434"
With fast RAM AMD has a 15% IPC advantage already. Click on the attachment fanboy - that's a 2600 competing with an 8700K that costs twice as much (While also using half the energy). It's AMD that is holding back right now. Not Intel.

I mean really... Are you blind? AMD is HOLDING BACK THE 2800X! They are saving the 4.5GHz+ 8-core for when Intel is ready to compete (a little) this fall. LOL come on man!
that my friend is called gpu bottleneck. It´s pretty obvius that 175fps is the most fps´s that the 1080ti can give you at that settings. Why you dont show the rest of the video where the 2600x still behind de 8700k?. You´re the one who calls a person "fanboy" yet... you are probably the biggest fanboy here
And i say it as a current 2600x owner.
Posted on Reply
#56
trparky
ToxicTaZ, post: 3875958, member: 145598"
My 8700K @5.1GHz
Sure... you can do that but you have to de-lid it to get those kinds of speeds. I don't exactly call that a win here.
Posted on Reply
#57
garcheezy
ToxicTaZ, post: 3875958, member: 145598"
Run your 2700X beyond 4.5Ghz+ and 1.45v+ to see what happens?

Loving Intel 14nm++ yields with Coffeelake first round.

My 8700K @5.1GHz @1.41v 75c loads Cooled by EK. If you're wondering Cinebench 15 single core is 222 @5.1GHz.

So if AMD Zen 2 has 15% IPC performance gains should see similar Cinebench [B]15 results I would expect. [/B]
i dont agree with you on what you said before this... but at least you are not straight up liying like captain_tom, anyone knows that intel still have a 5/8% ipc advantage. And i say it as a current 2600x owner. I dont know if that guy is a troll, or if it is really that retarded
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#58
hat
Enthusiast
Captain_Tom, post: 3875954, member: 155434"
II mean really... Are you blind? AMD is HOLDING BACK THE 2800X! They are saving the 4.5GHz+ 8-core for when Intel is ready to compete (a little) this fall. LOL come on man!
An impressive result, but no mention is made of what RAM the Intel systems were using. Faster RAM alone (in the same system) has already been shown to produce noticeable improvements in gaming. Ryzen systems aren't the only ones that benefit from faster RAM. The Intel system has better minimum FPS too, though they do reach the same average framerate. Still, even if the Intel system is comparatively gimped by slower RAM, it's impressive that the Ryzen chip can keep up while being a full GHz slower.

trparky, post: 3875956, member: 170376"
And who's fault is that? Intel's!!! That's who!

That kind of thinking may have worked back in 2016 but in 2018 with AMD in the game that's just not going to work anymore. Intel needs to try harder.
AMD is relying on an outside source to actually produce their chips for them. Intel owns their own fabs. So yeah, they're not getting something right with that 10nm process...

I'm starting to think we might see a repeat of Netburst... seems like Intel is pushing high clock speeds to try to stay on top while AMD is catching up despite lower clock speeds. I wonder if AMD might bring back those comparative speed ratings... "Ryzen 8 6000+"

trparky, post: 3875961, member: 170376"
Sure... you can do that but you have to de-lid it to get those kinds of speeds. I don't exactly call that a win here.
Wouldn't have to if they were soldered in the first place. That shouldn't have happened, but it seems Intel has realized they've been shooting themselves in the foot by getting too comfortable while AMD was napping.
Posted on Reply
#59
trparky
hat, post: 3875963, member: 32804"
seems like Intel is pushing high clock speeds to try to stay on top while AMD is catching up despite lower clock speeds.
*conjures up bad memories of Intel Pentium Prescott* Oh God.
Posted on Reply
#60
GoldenX
HT (an inferior SMT) only for the most expensive i9, overclocking only for the most expensive K unlocked models and Z motherboards, AVX only for the main iX series, best "IGP" (heh) only for the most expensive of any series, full PCI-E lanes on the HEDT platform only for the most expensive "true" HEDT products. In the past even simple virtualization was reserved for the most expensive.
Intel way of marketing their products is as bad as AMD's PR and marketing.
Posted on Reply
#61
ToxicTaZ
AMD IPC and Memory go hand and hand....average Ryzen performance memory of 3200MHz CL14-14-14-34 is AMD sweet spot?

I myself running 4133MHz CL17-17-17-37 on Maximus X FORMULA board... Intel Z370 benefits from higher MHz RAM.

Intel is now supporting 4800MHz CL17-17-17-37 using crazy Samsung 10nm B-die.
Posted on Reply
#62
HTC
AMD currently has several problems as far as Zen is concerned:

1 - IPC
2 - base / turbo speeds
3 - inability to have high memory speeds easily (think over 3600 MHz)
4 - low overclocking capabilitiy

The 2000 series brought us an increase in the 1st three categories (i don't count the 4th because the raise in the base / turbo clocks is also the raise of the overclocks.

While the IPC uplift that the rumor claims would be great, due to how Zen architecture works, i'd rather they work on having the ability to use rated RAM speed for high speed RAM, such as the one from the example in the post above from @ToxicTaZ . This alone would greatly increase Zen chips performance across the board. Managing to add like 3% - 5% IPC would be the cherry on top.
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#63
lexluthermiester
trparky, post: 3875717, member: 170376"
Considering Intel's recent announcement around their 9th generation processors (See Top Three Intel 9th Generation Core Parts Detailed for more details), I don't think AMD will be having many issues kicking Intel's ass here. If you look at Intel's 9th generation processor it looks like they aren't even trying, it's absolutely pathetic if you ask me; Intel handed AMD a win here.
Right? Maybe this will be the fire lit under Intel's butt that will be needed to get them to make a really progressive advancement.
Posted on Reply
#64
trparky
lexluthermiester, post: 3875979, member: 134537"
Right? Maybe this will be the fire lit under Intel's butt that will be needed to get them to make a really progressive advancement.
Yes, I certainly hope so.
Posted on Reply
#65
GoldenX
ToxicTaZ, post: 3875971, member: 145598"
AMD IPC and Memory go hand and hand....average Ryzen performance memory of 3200MHz CL14-14-14-34 is AMD sweet spot?

I myself running 4133MHz CL17-17-17-37 on Maximus X FORMULA board... Intel Z370 benefits from higher MHz RAM.

Intel is now supporting 4800MHz CL17-17-17-37 using crazy Samsung 10nm B-die.
That doesn't help with my speculation of DDR5 frequencies. If DDR4 and Intel can pull that off, then that means over 5-6GHz in the future.
Posted on Reply
#66
R0H1T
GoldenX, post: 3875982, member: 160319"
That doesn't help with my speculation of DDR5 frequencies. If DDR4 and Intel can pull that off, then that means over 5-6GHz in the future.
Effective speeds, the actual speeds are gonna be 2GHz & upwards unless you meant core speeds, which I find highly unlikely to reach north of 5.5GHz (OCed?) anytime soon.
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#67
GoldenX
Effective or marketing DDR speed, it's still impressive.
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#68
AlwaysHope
Durvelle27, post: 3875773, member: 107186"
Man this is looking good for the PC community
Right on! :peace:
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#69
ToxicTaZ
GoldenX, post: 3875982, member: 160319"
That doesn't help with my speculation of DDR5 frequencies. If DDR4 and Intel can pull that off, then that means over 5-6GHz in the future.
I only heard weird things about DDR5 memory.... And yes I heard 5-7GHz+ on 5nm in the near future but I heard talk about CL40+

I wonder how that would effect AMD IPC if you throw CL40 into the mix?

CL40 is horrible if true.
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#70
Captain_Tom
ToxicTaZ, post: 3875958, member: 145598"
Run your 2700X beyond 4.5Ghz+ and 1.45v+ to see what happens?

Loving Intel 14nm++ yields with Coffeelake first round.

My 8700K @5.1GHz @1.41v 75c loads Cooled by EK. If you're wondering Cinebench 15 single core is 222 @5.1GHz.

So if AMD Zen 2 has 15% IPC performance gains should see similar Cinebench [B]15 results I would expect. [/B]
No one with a bloody brain cares about rendering on one core. LMAO are you stuck in 2003?! ^Everyone take note of the definition of fanboyism - desperately searching a win for his team's color.

Hey look in all seriousness I have a 6700K, and I got it for $300 2 years ago. It's fantastic. But I am also not blind!!!

Your CPU at those voltages is using 250w. Full stop. Meanwhile AMD Is about to launch a 32-core that will use the same amount of energy as your peasant 6-core, and their existing 6-core gets the same performance with fast RAM @150w @4.2GHz. Wake up.
Posted on Reply
#71
eidairaman1
The Exiled Airman
Captain_Tom, post: 3875998, member: 155434"
No one with a bloody brain cares about rendering on one core. LMAO are you stuck in 2003?! ^Everyone take note of the definition of fanboyism - desperately searching a win for his team's color.

Hey look in all seriousness I have a 6700K, and I got it for $300 2 years ago. It's fantastic. But I am also not blind!!!

Your CPU at those voltages is using 250w. Full stop. Meanwhile AMD Is about to launch a 32-core that will use the same amount of energy as your peasant 6-core, and their existing 6-core gets the same performance with fast RAM @150w @4.2GHz. Wake up.
5.1GHz huh on a 6core, 5.0 On a 8 core from 2012 on Air...

My gaming Temps are 55, worst case scenario is 75 on mine. No water cooling needed...
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#72
ToxicTaZ
Captain_Tom, post: 3875998, member: 155434"
No one with a bloody brain cares about rendering on one core. LMAO are you stuck in 2003?! ^Everyone take note of the definition of fanboyism - desperately searching a win for his team's color.

Hey look in all seriousness I have a 6700K, and I got it for $300 2 years ago. It's fantastic. But I am also not blind!!!

Your CPU at those voltages is using 250w. Full stop. Meanwhile AMD Is about to launch a 32-core that will use the same amount of energy as your peasant 6-core, and their existing 6-core gets the same performance with fast RAM @150w @4.2GHz. Wake up.
1.45v is perfectly fine if you have good hardware and cooling system.

I don't recommend stock boards...

As an experienced o/c guy as long as your load is not more than 75c without long periods of heat. Intel CPUs can handle going to 100c (boiling water) point before shutting down.

My RIG 8700K @5.1GHz 1.41v with Bios v1602

I'm using 1kW Gold PSU with 83A 12v+ Rail that drives my Coffeelake beyond 5GHz+ stability with all 6 cores AVX -2.

My 4133MHz 17-17-17-37 1.4v RAM is stock XMP profile settings on Maximus X FORMULA board Cooled by EK.

If you don't have good hardware and cooling system I wouldn't recommend ocing.

Same goes for AMD Rigs, I wouldn't push your 2700X more than 1.45v and 4.4GHz even with good hardware and cooling.

AMD Zen 2 on 7nm with a higher IPC will gain some heat pushing some benchmarks. 2019 going to be amazing next generation.
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#73
Melvis
Fx, post: 3875708, member: 61283"
Currently building a x470/2600x rig, and I'll upgrade when Zen 2 is released. If half of this is true, I'll be satisfied.
Im in the exact same boat as you, I am currently building a X470/2700X (As i got the 2700X at a big discount, only $30 more then the 2600X) and will just upgrade to Zen 2 if I wanted to in the future, or Zen 3.
10-15% IPC increase will over take intel easily as there is only a 3% difference now, just clock speed is the more major issue but if you can get better IPC then the competition then clock speed doesnt mean as much.
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#74
cucker tarlson
This is getting interesting. 8 core i7, Zen with improved ipc,frequency and higher core per ccx count. I might forfeit my plans to buy a next gen card this fall and get me a cpu upgrade.
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#75
GoldenX
A low frequency AMD product against a high frequency and slightly overheating Intel product, but this time with a more balanced IPC between the two. This is Athlon 64 vs Pentium 4, round 2. Freaking finally.
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