Wednesday, November 21st 2018

AMD 8-core Ryzen APU to Power Sony Playstation 5, Says the Rumor Mill

Sony's announcement of the Playstation team skipping E3 2019 took everyone by surprise aside from a few on Reddit who had paid attention to a thread created the day before. Reddit user RuthenicCookie seemed to know a lot more about Sony's plans for their popular game console for the next few years, as well as game titles supporting this current console generation and the next. Amidst a lot of the tasty rumor bits that should interest console gamers, something more relevant to us directly is the mention of the Playstation 5 to continue using AMD for processing power.

This is a logical move to just about everyone familiar with the industry, and Sony needed to up the CPU horsepower in particular to compete with the XBOX One X and offer a true 4K/60 FPS solution for gaming without framerate drops galore. As such, said redditor shared information saying that the current plans involve an 8-core Ryzen-based processor and an estimated console price point of $500. Sony may well share a teaser about the console next year, with retail availability expected in the holiday season 2020 (two years from now, thus). As such, developer kits are likely already ready meaning the specs are finalized as well. This may mean we will see either the first or second gen Ryzen APUs, and not Ryzen 2 as many may have hoped. No word yet on what Microsoft is cooking in their side of the kitchen, but incremental console updates means we may see a Ryzen 2-powered console sooner than later as well.
Source: Reddit user RuthenicCookie
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85 Comments on AMD 8-core Ryzen APU to Power Sony Playstation 5, Says the Rumor Mill

#26
SoNic67
Manu_PT, post: 3946329, member: 168799"
Current PS4 is already x86 and you still have A LOT of games that are not on PC. It all depends on other factors. If you look at the 5 GOTY nominees this year, 3 of them are not on PC, being console exclusive. Last year 4 of them were console exclusive too.
Porting the games might be easy technically, but it is not possible when exclusivity contracts and money are involved.

Solid State Soul ( SSS ), post: 3946334, member: 181777"
Go to the steam hardware GPU charts, you will see nvidia dominate the first 17 positions. AMD comes in the 18th place for the number of people playing on AMD gpu
Without AMD in competition, nVidia would be probably still at Kepler gen GPU's and we would be still paying $1000 for that.
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#27
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
SoNic67, post: 3946328, member: 152626"
Without consoles' sales, AMD would be closed today.
Not true. Console sales no doubt help AMD's bottomline but AMD is not dependent on that income to survive. The margins on each console sold are very, very slim.

Manu_PT, post: 3946329, member: 168799"
Current PS4 is already x86 and you still have A LOT of games that are not on PC. It all depends on other factors. If you look at the 5 GOTY nominees this year, 3 of them are not on PC, being console exclusive. Last year 4 of them were console exclusive too.
Sony spends a lot of money to keep those exclusives exclusive. They're not exclusive for technical reasons. Microsoft, on the other hand, as pretty much given up on exclusives to promote UWP Xbox One/Windows 10 cross-releases.
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#28
Aldain
Imsochobo, post: 3946270, member: 66457"
That have been confirmed several times!

it's on 7nm, the jaguar core was rather large when PS4 came out.
Furthermore, if they cut L3 cache it'll be a lot smaller too, when Zen2 launches we will see a common L3 cache for all 8 cores reducing the need for as large L3 cache as it'll be more effecient as cross ccx penalty will be removed. (8-10mb L3 instead of 16mb) or even less as a possibility.
You remove a IF between each CCX further reducing the die space area required.
It si not confirmed that NAVI was made in partnership with Sony..

Solid State Soul ( SSS ), post: 3946334, member: 181777"
Yah, they are far behind in the desecrate graphics business. So investing more in console hardware makes sense from a return on investment.

Go to the steam hardware GPU charts, you will see nvidia dominate the first 17 positions. AMD comes in the 18th place for the number of people playing on AMD gpu
LOL

Steam hardware survey... i stoped reading after that

FordGT90Concept, post: 3946282, member: 60463"
It is not. Navi is an RTG microarchitecture replacing Vega across the product stack. It was designed with Sony's needs in mind.


Navi.
It was never ever CONFIRMED that it was designed for Sony needs..
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#29
Vya Domus
FordGT90Concept, post: 3946323, member: 60463"
Draw calls.
I am just very doubtful of that. 14 clock cycles is an incredibly small number to account for all draw calls within a frame and I am sure you can sense that number seems off too. But lets say that is true, that is still just the draw calls, not the entire CPU time required for a frame to be processed.

FordGT90Concept, post: 3946323, member: 60463"
Without having a debugger attached, you can't know that the CPU is to blame.
True but it's not required to make an educated guess that when the framerate tanks in a scene full of physics interactions it is due to the CPU.
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#30
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Aldain, post: 3946340, member: 170164"
It was never ever CONFIRMED that it was designed for Sony needs..
Sources: AMD Created Navi For Sony's PlayStation 5, Vega Suffered
According to my sources, Navi isn't just inside the Sony PS5; it was created for Sony. The vast majority of AMD and Sony's Navi collaboration took place while Raja Koduri -- Radeon Technologies Group boss and chief architect -- was at AMD.
But the collaboration came at the expense of Radeon RX Vega and other in-development projects. Allegedly, Koduri saw up to a massive 2/3 of his engineering team devoted exclusively to Navi against his wishes, which resulted in a final RX Vega product Koduri was displeased with as resources and engineering hours were much lower than anticipated
Vega had a remarkably tough launch because HBCC wasn't ready for primetime.
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#31
Chloe Price
Solid State Soul ( SSS ), post: 3946324, member: 181777"
PS3 was a nightmare for developers :laugh:
I know from what I've read :D

Gran Turismo 6 looked just so damn great.
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#32
VSG
Editor, Reviews & News
Octopuss, post: 3946307, member: 74316"
This makes absolutely no sense. If they console is supposed to start selling TWO YEARS from now, why the hell would it contain a CPU that's a year old NOW?
Did you read on? Console developer kits have to be ready already to get launch titles ready to go, which means the hardware to be used will be one that is already finalized. This is why we see outdated hardware in consoles at launch compared to the respective PC platform, which is also aided by a more mature process meaning higher yield and a lower manufacturing cost.
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#33
Rahnak
VSG, post: 3946364, member: 150714"
Did you read on? Console developer kits have to be ready already to get launch titles ready to go, which means the hardware to be used will be one that is already finalized. This is why we see outdated hardware in consoles at launch compared to the respective PC platform, which is also aided by a more mature process meaning higher yield and a lower manufacturing cost.
I don't see why they couldn't ship the dev kits with some Ryzen 1 variant and then for release use the more optimized ryzen gen 2 or ryzen 2. For a better analogy, imagine the PS4 was the dev kit and PS4 Pro was the released product.
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#34
Joss
FordGT90Concept, post: 3946353, member: 60463"
Vega had a remarkably tough launch because HBCC wasn't ready for primetime
True.
But why Nvidia's RTX don't have a "remarkably tough launch" when they too bring a technology that is not, definitely not, ready for prime time? because the tech press is too lenient? The consumer buys imbecility?
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#35
Kamgusta
A 8 cores / 16 threads 7nm Ryzen 2 (no matter the GHzs it will have) would be a MASSIVE improvement in the console world.
Plenty of power for anything, from physix, to AI, to concurrent streaming and even old hardware emulation.
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#36
Manu_PT
Kamgusta, post: 3946383, member: 182585"
A 8 cores / 16 threads 7nm Ryzen 2 (no matter the GHzs it will have) would be a MASSIVE improvement in the console world.
Plenty of power for anything, from physix, to AI, to concurrent streaming and even old hardware emulation.
Rumours/leaks talk about Ryzen 8 core 2,4/2.6ghz + GTX1080ti performance, for 500€/$. That would be awesome and a big win as PC market is getting worse and worse. 500€ right now on the PC world is enough for 16gb 3200mhz RAM and a safe (aka good VRM) motherboard. Still missing CPU, GPU, PSU, HDD, Case, cooler, etc....

Wonder why PS4 is at 100 million units mark right now :rolleyes:
Posted on Reply
#37
IceShroom
FordGT90Concept, post: 3946299, member: 60463"
Jaguar is the equivalent of Intel's Atom. It's missing a lot of high level instruction sets that their Core/Ryzen brethren support. They also feature no multithreading circuitry so there's strictly one thread executed per core. Puma (updated version of Jaguar) makes a lot of sense to be used in the new consoles. AMD has not announced a new ultra-lower power microarchitecture since Puma.
AMD's Jaguar architecture is much more powerful then Intel's Atom architecture. Jaguar supports AVX like Core/Zen(Ryzen is a processor brand, not architecture name).
Here is proper link:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/6976/amds-jaguar-architecture-the-cpu-powering-xbox-one-playstation-4-kabini-temash
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#38
SoNic67
Is AVX that important in games?
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#39
Vya Domus
SoNic67, post: 3946415, member: 152626"
Is AVX that important in games?
Not really.
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#40
M2B
Manu_PT, post: 3946390, member: 168799"
Rumours/leaks talk about Ryzen 8 core 2,4/2.6ghz + GTX1080ti performance, for 500€/$. That would be awesome and a big win as PC market is getting worse and worse. 500€ right now on the PC world is enough for 16gb 3200mhz RAM and a safe (aka good VRM) motherboard. Still missing CPU, GPU, PSU, HDD, Case, cooler, etc....

Wonder why PS4 is at 100 million units mark right now :rolleyes:
500$ is enough for a seriously capable CPU (Ryzen 5 2600) , 16GB of RAM @3GHz , a top-end b450 board and a capable 650W PSU. stop kidding yourself.

"GTX 1080 Ti performance"
Vega 56 performance is the most you can expect but hey, keep dreaming.
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#41
E-curbi
FordGT90Concept, post: 3946263, member: 60463"
Was there ever any doubt? Navi was literally being engineered for PlayStation 5 for years.

On the CPU side, I'm not convinced that it's going to be Ryzen-based. Jaguar consumes less die space and does the job well enough. If it is Ryzen-based, it's likely a lean version of the cores (Jaguar-esque).
WoooooHooooo - GO AMD! :peace:


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#42
Fizzle bomber
M2B, post: 3946262, member: 172252"
CPU-wise it might be good enough for a solid 60FPS but It's pure ignorance to even think a Vega 56 level GPU would be enough to push 4K/60 in next gen titles.
Most console players who think 4k/60 will be the new standard for console games will be disappointed.
I think this makes sense given Vega 56 is a very capable GPU if the games are optimized for it as we have seen in some PC gaming benchmarks. Plus it would make a lot of sense given they have to keep the prices down which is where console value lies. They could come up with an beast setup, but that wouldn't justify the consumer base consoles stand for.
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#43
Xaled
SoNic67, post: 3946328, member: 152626"
Development of new CPU and GPU costs money. Huge money.
Not only that AMD is not developing those gaming consoles chips "for free", but it is covering a big chunk of the development costs needed to keep making new CPU and GPU designs. Without consoles' sales, AMD would be closed today. So I would say that yes, they harvest enough.
So thats why AMD got behind nVidia 5-6 years in gpus?
Posted on Reply
#44
VSG
Editor, Reviews & News
Rahnak, post: 3946378, member: 172195"
I don't see why they couldn't ship the dev kits with some Ryzen 1 variant and then for release use the more optimized ryzen gen 2 or ryzen 2. For a better analogy, imagine the PS4 was the dev kit and PS4 Pro was the released product.
That opens up a dangerous precedent to game development for consoles. I know from having spoken to many at E3 last year that they were not happy about having to support two same-gen consoles for Sony and Microsoft each, and then the PSVR on top of that. Each new CPU generation brings up new instruction sets as part of the task optimization process, so it is not trivial necessarily to ship out a different hardware kit to devs. Also, most devs are overworked to death these days so I can completely understand them not even wanting to put the effort to try out something else.

DX12/Mantle etc were all supposed to help with this, as with the vast multitude of PC configurations, but we all know how that is going/went.
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#46
efikkan
VSG, post: 3946447, member: 150714"
Each new CPU generation brings up new instruction sets as part of the task optimization process, so it is not trivial necessarily to ship out a different hardware kit to devs.
Games are rarely, if at all, optimized on ISA level. Zen 2 is not going to change fundamentally over Zen 1, and if there are changes these will be minor additions, probably not even relevant for gaming.

Optimizing console games is about calibrating shaders and assets, not CPU assembly code.

VSG, post: 3946447, member: 150714"
DX12/Mantle etc were all supposed to help with this, as with the vast multitude of PC configurations, but we all know how that is going/went.
Really?
If anything, Direct3D and Mantle increases the effort for the developer. But this comes down to API calls to the GPU, not assembly code in the CPU.
Posted on Reply
#47
Rahnak
VSG, post: 3946447, member: 150714"
That opens up a dangerous precedent to game development for consoles. I know from having spoken to many at E3 last year that they were not happy about having to support two same-gen consoles for Sony and Microsoft each, and then the PSVR on top of that. Each new CPU generation brings up new instruction sets as part of the task optimization process, so it is not trivial necessarily to ship out a different hardware kit to devs. Also, most devs are overworked to death these days so I can completely understand them not even wanting to put the effort to try out something else.

DX12/Mantle etc were all supposed to help with this, as with the vast multitude of PC configurations, but we all know how that is going/went.
I thought the changes would be minimal.. That's unfortunate but understandable. In any way, moving to a Zen based cpu would be miles better than the current offerings. I'm more concerned with the GPU side of things. From what I gathered, the PS2 has 6.2 GFLOPS, the PS3 192GFLOPS and the PS4 has 1.8TFLOPS or 4.2TFLOPS in the Pro version. The XboneX is at 6TFLOPS. I don't see a that big of a bump in performance for the next generation.
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#48
SoNic67
GPU at 6 TFlops SinglePrecision is in the class of RX580.
RX590 inches in at 7 TFlops SP. Vega56 is at 8-10 TFlops SP but it can do also 20 TFlops in HalfPrecision - that might became important in games if the console's GPU will support it. Vega 64 is at 10-12 TFlops SP with 20-25 TFlops in HP.
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#49
Fleurious
More CPU power is always welcome.
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#50
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
newtekie1, post: 3946456, member: 20670"
An article siting "anonymous sources that refuse to be named" is not confirmation of anything.
Sure it is. The source could be a high-level engineer at AMD. Can't say anything on the record because he/she would get fired. Yeah, on the record would be better but...in this era, on the record usually means whitewashed press releases that say a whole lot of nothing.
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