Tuesday, November 21st 2017

AMD 8-core Ryzen APU to Power Sony Playstation 5, Says the Rumor Mill

Sony's announcement of the Playstation team skipping E3 2019 took everyone by surprise aside from a few on Reddit who had paid attention to a thread created the day before. Reddit user RuthenicCookie seemed to know a lot more about Sony's plans for their popular game console for the next few years, as well as game titles supporting this current console generation and the next. Amidst a lot of the tasty rumor bits that should interest console gamers, something more relevant to us directly is the mention of the Playstation 5 to continue using AMD for processing power.

This is a logical move to just about everyone familiar with the industry, and Sony needed to up the CPU horsepower in particular to compete with the XBOX One X and offer a true 4K/60 FPS solution for gaming without framerate drops galore. As such, said redditor shared information saying that the current plans involve an 8-core Ryzen-based processor and an estimated console price point of $500. Sony may well share a teaser about the console next year, with retail availability expected in the holiday season 2020 (two years from now, thus). As such, developer kits are likely already ready meaning the specs are finalized as well. This may mean we will see either the first or second gen Ryzen APUs, and not Ryzen 2 as many may have hoped. No word yet on what Microsoft is cooking in their side of the kitchen, but incremental console updates means we may see a Ryzen 2-powered console sooner than later as well.
Source: Reddit user RuthenicCookie
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79 Comments on AMD 8-core Ryzen APU to Power Sony Playstation 5, Says the Rumor Mill

#1
M2B
CPU-wise it might be good enough for a solid 60FPS but It's pure ignorance to even think a Vega 56 level GPU would be enough to push 4K/60 in next gen titles.
Most console players who think 4k/60 will be the new standard for console games will be disappointed.
Posted on Reply
#2
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Was there ever any doubt? Navi was literally being engineered for PlayStation 5 for years.

On the CPU side, I'm not convinced that it's going to be Ryzen-based. Jaguar consumes less die space and does the job well enough. If it is Ryzen-based, it's likely a lean version of the cores (Jaguar-esque).
Posted on Reply
#3
kastriot
It will be 8/16 zen2 and navi gpu for 500$ or less.
Posted on Reply
#4
Imsochobo
FordGT90Concept said:
Was there ever any doubt? Navi was literally being engineered for PlayStation 5 for years.

On the CPU side, I'm not convinced that it's going to be Ryzen-based. Jaguar consumes less die space and does the job well enough. If it is Ryzen-based, it's likely a lean version of the cores (Jaguar-esque).
That have been confirmed several times!

it's on 7nm, the jaguar core was rather large when PS4 came out.
Furthermore, if they cut L3 cache it'll be a lot smaller too, when Zen2 launches we will see a common L3 cache for all 8 cores reducing the need for as large L3 cache as it'll be more effecient as cross ccx penalty will be removed. (8-10mb L3 instead of 16mb) or even less as a possibility.
You remove a IF between each CCX further reducing the die space area required.
Posted on Reply
#5
Solid State Soul ( SSS )
kastriot said:
It will be 8/16 zen2 and navi gpu for 500$ or less.
If this is true, then PC system requirement are going to skyrocket in 2020. This is going to be the most technically advanced jump in performance a console generation has ever seen.

Also am so glad that Xbox scarlet and PS5 are using x86 architecture. since it is same as PC, porting game to PC will be as easy as pressing a button.

kastriot said:
It will be 8/16 zen2 and navi gpu for 500$ or less.
It is very interesting when AMD said that their navi architecture was built specifically for the next playstation cause sony greatly funded, and worked closely with AMD to polish it as much as possible. Hell, even VEGA turned into a crippled flop because 2/3 of the radeon technology group engineers where moved to work on navi therefor leaving VEGA development with as little resources which resulted in a very, very disappointing product, which is why RAJA felt complied to leave AMD to work with intel discreet graphics .

The big question is ; since navi is to be used exclusively for play station ( cause sony helped fund it ), i wounder what the next Xbox is going to use ??? more likely go with a Vega APU which will leave it in a severe disadvantage.
Posted on Reply
#6
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Solid State Soul ( SSS ) said:
The big question is ; since navi is to be used exclusively for play station ( cause sony helped fund it )
It is not. Navi is an RTG microarchitecture replacing Vega across the product stack. It was designed with Sony's needs in mind.

Solid State Soul ( SSS ) said:
i wounder what the next Xbox is going to use ???
Navi.
Posted on Reply
#7
Chloe Price
At least consoles wouldn't age that bad.

But on the other hand, the last games on PS2 and PS3/X360 were pretty damn good-looking when thinking about the hardware.
Posted on Reply
#8
Vayra86
Solid State Soul ( SSS ) said:
If this is true, then PC system requirement are going to skyrocket in 2020. This is going to be the most technically advanced jump in performance a console generation has ever seen.
Unlikely. The consoles will still suffer a major GPU bottleneck. The CPU bottleneck might go away this time. Which is nice for lots of additional features, like recording gameplay while playing, other cloud based services alongside the OS and gameplay, etc. But I doubt it will substantially change the gameplay experience, which hinges on GPU and which is going to remain a midrange offering. And I don't deem it likely that you'll be getting a full-on Ryzen copy in there either. Its going to be something handicapped.

Consoles will continue employing all sorts of trickery to get their magical numbers. And still sweat hard doing so. The age of overkill hardware in consoles is past history. There is no hardware on any roadmap that has the potential to be a game changer. The game concepts won't be changing, all we see is resolution and IQ going up, along with normal generational increases. None of this prompts a major increase in PC requirements. After all, resolution is still a choice of monitor.
Posted on Reply
#9
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Xbox One X practically has a RX 580 8 GiB in it (6 TFLOP). It's by far the most powerful GPU ever put in a console and on par (GTX 1060) or superior to (GTX 1050 Ti) mainstream gaming PCs. The console push to 4K is requring hardware that is nothing to scoff at. PlayStation 5 could easily have a GPU that's the equivalent of a Vega 56 which they need to drive things like VR and 4K.
Posted on Reply
#10
Vya Domus
FordGT90Concept said:
Jaguar consumes less die space and does the job well enough. If it is Ryzen-based, it's likely a lean version of the cores (Jaguar-esque).
I don't know that makes you say that, first of all it's self evident that the current Jaguar cores are severely underpowered. Secondly, what is the actual size difference and is it really so huge to the point where they would rather chose a significantly worse core architecture ?

The reality is AMD already has developed a relatively powerful APU with Zen and Vega : 4c/8t + 24 CUs , doubling that and adding even more CUs on 7nm without a significant increase in die space should be achievable.
Posted on Reply
#11
Xaled
Till when AMD will keep making stuff for sony and MS for free? (yes doing it with 0 profit is considered for free) Did they harvest the result of what theyve been doing? not at all imo
Posted on Reply
#12
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Vya Domus said:
I don't know that makes you say that, first of all it's self evident that the current Jaguar cores are severely underpowered.
Source? Xbox One X only needs like 14 CPU clocks per GPU frame. Consoles are extremely efficient in terms of the CPU which is why they can do so much with so little CPU resources. Vayra86 mentioned "recording gameplay while playing" which is something the console already does using the GPU (only CPU clocks necessary are copying the data from VRAM to HDD).

Vya Domus said:
Secondly, what is the actual size difference and is it really so huge to the point where they would rather chose a significantly worse core architecture ?
Jaguar is the equivalent of Intel's Atom. It's missing a lot of high level instruction sets that their Core/Ryzen brethren support. They also feature no multithreading circuitry so there's strictly one thread executed per core. Puma (updated version of Jaguar) makes a lot of sense to be used in the new consoles. AMD has not announced a new ultra-lower power microarchitecture since Puma.

Edit: https://www.kitguru.net/components/cpu/anton-shilov/no-more-cats-amd-reconsiders-ultra-low-power-cpu-roadmap/
By contrast, it does not look like AMD has plans to develop any new low-power/low-cost x86 architectures in the future. In 2016 the company will not offer any chips based on its “cats” micro-architectures, but will stick to offerings powered by “Zen” and “K12” cores. Keeping in mind that AMD needs to optimize its research and development costs, abandoning development of low-power/low-cost x86 architectures is completely justified.
Secondly, modern x86 cores are very compact and account for only a small fraction of modern SoC die areas (it is rumoured that AMD Zen core size is less than 10mm², which is larger than core sizes of “Jaguar” or “Puma”, but which is dramatically smaller compared to previous-gen x86 cores). As a result, it is possible to design a tiny system-on-chip with high-performance x86 cores.
That appears to be true to today. We'll have to wait and see what was changed with Zen to accommodate the console market. PS5 will not have more than 8 threads. It will either get there by way of quad core with two threads each or 8 cores with one thread each. The former is more likely.
Posted on Reply
#13
Vya Domus
Xaled said:
Till when AMD will keep making stuff for sony and MS for free? (yes doing it with 0 profit is considered for free)
What makes you think it's for free and what makes you think it's only for Sony and MS ?
Posted on Reply
#14
Xaled
Vya Domus said:
What makes you think it's for free and what makes you think it's only for Sony and MS ?
AMD's financial results arent enought? when was the last time AMD show earnings (before the mining bandwagon)? despite it has been doing stuff for xbox and sony for many years?
Posted on Reply
#15
Vya Domus
FordGT90Concept said:
Xbox One X only needs like 14 CPU clocks per GPU frame.
What is that even supposed to mean ? 14 clock cycles for what ? Draw calls ? Game logic ? Isn't that variable ? How did you come up with a fixed number ?

FordGT90Concept said:
Source?
The plethora of games that can't keep a locked 30fps due to obvious CPU constraints.

Xaled said:
when was the last time AMD show earnings
The same as with everybody else, there you go : http://ir.amd.com/news-releases/news-release-details/amd-reports-second-quarter-2018-financial-results

Xaled said:
AMD's financial results arent enought?
They are enough, revenue went up.
Posted on Reply
#16
Octopuss
VSG said:
This may mean we will see either the first or second gen Ryzen APUs, and not Ryzen 2 as many may have hoped.
This makes absolutely no sense. If they console is supposed to start selling TWO YEARS from now, why the hell would it contain a CPU that's a year old NOW?
Posted on Reply
#17
kings
Jaguar is very weak, is the responsible for the poor performance (fps wise) in some more CPU dependent titles.

By 2020 (when the PS5 is supposed to be released), even worse will it be.

I sincerely hope that the next generation consoles uses a decent CPU, which does not cripple the performance like Jaguar does.
Posted on Reply
#18
Chloe Price
Vya Domus said:
I don't know that makes you say that, first of all it's self evident that the current Jaguar cores are severely underpowered. Secondly, what is the actual size difference and is it really so huge to the point where they would rather chose a significantly worse core architecture ?

The reality is AMD already has developed a relatively powerful APU with Zen and Vega : 4c/8t + 24 CUs , doubling that and adding even more CUs on 7nm without a significant increase in die space should be achievable.
Aren't those AMD's cat-cores like AMD's version of Atom? At least Bobcat was slow as hell just like Atom was, and isn't Jaguar a derivative of Bobcat?
Posted on Reply
#19
Vya Domus
Chloe Price said:
isn't Jaguar a derivative of Bobcat?
It is and it doesn't help that Sony and MS chose to run them at abysmally low clocks.
Posted on Reply
#20
MadsMagnus
Xaled said:
AMD's financial results arent enought? when was the last time AMD show earnings (before the mining bandwagon)? despite it has been doing stuff for xbox and sony for many years?
You do realize that just because they don't show profit, doesn't mean that this branch doesn't make money right? It may just help push water out of the ship.
Posted on Reply
#21
FordGT90Concept
"I go fast!1!11!1!"
Vya Domus said:
What is that even supposed to mean ? 14 clock cycles for what ? Draw calls ? Game logic ? Isn't that variable ? How did you come up with a fixed number ?
Draw calls. Quote from Turn 10 studios in regards to optimizing Forza for Xbox One X. In other words, the CPU spends very little time on GPU-related tasks. Even though it has 8 weak, thin cores, they are free to work on other tasks (physics, AI, etc.).

I can't find where the exact quote was said (was in a video or on Twitter). Here's the closest I could find: https://www.destructoid.com/the-Xbox-one-x-has-power-to-spare-even-when-running-forza-at-4K-60fps-441794.phtml

Vya Domus said:
The plethora of games that can't keep a locked 30fps due to obvious CPU constraints.
Without having a debugger attached, you can't know that the CPU is to blame.
Posted on Reply
#22
Solid State Soul ( SSS )
Chloe Price said:
At least consoles wouldn't age that bad.

But on the other hand, the last games on PS2 and PS3/X360 were pretty damn good-looking when thinking about the hardware.
PS3 was a nightmare for developers :laugh:
Posted on Reply
#23
SoNic67
Xaled said:
ill when AMD will keep making stuff for sony and MS for free? (yes doing it with 0 profit is considered for free) Did they harvest the result of what theyve been doing? not at all imo
Development of new CPU and GPU costs money. Huge money.
Not only that AMD is not developing those gaming consoles chips "for free", but it is covering a big chunk of the development costs needed to keep making new CPU and GPU designs. Without consoles' sales, AMD would be closed today. So I would say that yes, they harvest enough.
Posted on Reply
#24
Manu_PT
Solid State Soul ( SSS ) said:
If this is true, then PC system requirement are going to skyrocket in 2020. This is going to be the most technically advanced jump in performance a console generation has ever seen.

Also am so glad that Xbox scarlet and PS5 are using x86 architecture. since it is same as PC, porting game to PC will be as easy as pressing a button.




It is very interesting when AMD said that their navi architecture was built specifically for the next playstation cause sony greatly funded, and worked closely with AMD to polish it as much as possible. Hell, even VEGA turned into a crippled flop because 2/3 of the radeon technology group engineers where moved to work on navi therefor leaving VEGA development with as little resources which resulted in a very, very disappointing product, which is why RAJA felt complied to leave AMD to work with intel discreet graphics .

The big question is ; since navi is to be used exclusively for play station ( cause sony helped fund it ), i wounder what the next Xbox is going to use ??? more likely go with a Vega APU which will leave it in a severe disadvantage.
Current PS4 is already x86 and you still have A LOT of games that are not on PC. It all depends on other factors. If you look at the 5 GOTY nominees this year, 3 of them are not on PC, being console exclusive. Last year 4 of them were console exclusive too.
Posted on Reply
#25
Solid State Soul ( SSS )
SoNic67 said:
Development of new CPU and GPU costs money. Huge money.
Not only that AMD is not developing those gaming consoles chips "for free", but it is covering a big chunk of the development costs needed to keep making new CPU and GPU designs. Without consoles' sales, AMD would be closed today.
Yah, they are far behind in the desecrate graphics business. So investing more in console hardware makes sense from a return on investment.

Go to the steam hardware GPU charts, you will see nvidia dominate the first 17 positions. AMD comes in the 18th place for the number of people playing on AMD gpu
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