Tuesday, April 16th 2019

AMD Zen3 to Leverage 7nm+ EUV For 20% Transistor Density Increase

AMD "Zen 3" microarchitecture could be designed for the enhanced 7 nm+ EUV (extreme ultraviolet) silicon fabrication node at TSMC, which promises a significant 20 percent increase in transistor densities compared to the 7 nm DUV (deep ultraviolet) node on which its "Zen 2" processors are being built. In addition, the node will also reduce power consumption by up to 10 percent at the same operational load. In a late-2018 interview, CTO Mark Papermaster stated AMD's design goal with "Zen 3" would be to prioritize energy-efficiency, and that it would present "modest" performance improvements (read: IPC improvements) over "Zen 2." AMD made it clear that it won't drag 7 nm DUV over more than one microarchitecture (Zen 2), and that "Zen 3" will debut in 2020 on 7 nm+ EUV.
Source: PCGamesN
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90 Comments on AMD Zen3 to Leverage 7nm+ EUV For 20% Transistor Density Increase

#26
las
Aretak
What absolute nonsense. Ryzen doesn't "suck" for high FPS gaming. I know that for a fact, having owned a 2700X and a 1080 Ti paired with a 1440p/165Hz monitor until I sold everything recently. What you actually mean is it's sligtly slower than a top end Intel chip clocked at 5GHz. That certainly doesn't equal "sucks" by any means. Ryzen still pushes extremely high framerates and provides a great gaming experience, and rarely held back my 1080 Ti in anything. Only a drooling fanboy would claim that it "sucks" just because you can do slightly better by paying a lot more. Keep justifying that 9900K purchase to yourself, kid.
Yeah, if slightly means 20-50%.

Calm your tits, kid. Trololol.

My 9900K was free, I don't have to justify anything :laugh:
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#27
bug
I'm guessing the biggest news here is there's not that much room left to improve IPC after Zen2 :(
Cause 7nm was pretty much a given for Zen3 anyway.
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#28
medi01
las
300 series chipsets can't be used with Zen2 and 3? xD
Do you mean MSI bullshit?
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#30
bug
medi01
Do you mean MSI bullshit?
Motherboard makers sell motherboards. I'm pretty sure MSI isn't the only one unhappy with a new generation of CPUs not needing a new motherboard.
Then again, if a new chipset was actually not needed, AMD wouldn't have designed a new one to go with the new CPUs.
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#31
las
I welcome this. I would never use a 3-4 year old motherboard with a brand new CPU anyway.
I remember how many issues this resulted in, back in the days with AM3. And lack of features.
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#32
Vayra86
cucker tarlson
Huh?
Just ignore it, obvious bait is obvious, he always blows everything way out of proportion to make a point that only applies to a niche. Take special note of the pigeon (poop) avatar.

las
Yeah, if slightly means 20-50%.

Calm your tits, kid. Trololol.

My 9900K was free, I don't have to justify anything :laugh:
See - I hadn't even arrived at page 2 yet but here we are.

Get a life.
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#34
juiseman
las
Yeah, if slightly means 20-50%.

Calm your tits, kid. Trololol.

My 9900K was free, I don't have to justify anything :laugh:
Free? nice...

I want a i9-9900k for free....
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#35
FeelinFroggy
las
Yeah, if slightly means 20-50%.
So tell me how many games the 9900k beats the 2700x by 50%?
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#36
KarymidoN
FeelinFroggy
So tell me how many games the 9900k beats the 2700x by 50%?
this dude doenst have a 9900k he has a God Processor 10k RTX RGB wtf
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#37
Vayra86
KarymidoN
this dude doenst have a 9900k he has a God Processor 10k RTX RGB wtf
Probably due to one of his world-class delids that dropped temps by 30C. :toast: Yes, he delids a soldered proc, don't ask.

So sad. Luckily I know liars when I see them.
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#38
HenrySomeone
notb
I kind of expected Zen 2 will already be delayed to use 7nm EUV.
7nm DUV seems like a recipe for a huge letdown. :/
Yup, it'll be funny to read all the butthurt responses from team red fanboys after the best Zen2 chips will still lag way behind 9900k, 9700k and 8700k in gaming (and maybe even 8600k and 7700k lmao) :D
Ah well, just goes to show once again that waiting for anything from AMD is never a good idea :rolleyes:
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#39
londiste
DUV vs EUV does not necessarily have an effect on performance of the resulting chip. The difference is complexity of design and production as well as the time it takes to produce the chips. All this translates to (a lot of) money.
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#40
HenrySomeone
Not necessarily, but most likely and seeing that Zen has a LOT of ground to cover in single thread performance before Intel launches their 10nm (which they eventually will, despite all the delays), this does not bode well for them at all...
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#41
NdMk2o1o
HenrySomeone
Not necessarily, but most likely and seeing that Zen has a LOT of ground to cover in single thread performance before Intel launches their 10nm (which they eventually will, despite all the delays), this does not bode well for them at all...
Yet another obvious troll who sole purpose was to sign up and trash amd, please tell me more :nutkick:
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#42
64K
HenrySomeone
Not necessarily, but most likely and seeing that Zen has a LOT of ground to cover in single thread performance before Intel launches their 10nm (which they eventually will, despite all the delays), this does not bode well for them at all...
I don't think Intel will launch their 10nm chips. They have had a myriad of problems with that process but bear in mind that it was really 10nm.
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#43
HenrySomeone
NdMk2o1o
Yet another obvious troll who sole purpose was to sign up and trash amd, please tell me more :nutkick:
No real need as they're doing a terrific job of that themselves; enormously disappointing Radeon 7 launch recently, all (or at least most) of the mantras of AM4 longevity down the drain with 300 chipsets, sub par performance of zen2 (compared to the hype - they might be somewhat decent in absolute terms at least for mid range) all but confirmed... Need I go any longer?
64K
I don't think Intel will launch their 10nm chips. They have had a myriad of problems with that process but bear in mind that it was really 10nm.
Well the other option of course is them going directly to 7nm as well which might take a bit longer but we all know what that spells for Zen2/Zen2+ :eek:
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#44
Mats
notb
Because AMD had no problem launching mobile 3000-series on current Zen.
This came as no surprise, as ALL 14 nm APU's (2200G, 2400G, 2700U...) should've been part of the 1000 series. (Yes, I know they're different from the Summit Ridge 1000)

Basically, what AMD is trying to tell us is that the xxxx CPU's and the xxxxG/U APU's are not in the same series, they just happen to begin with the same number.
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#45
NdMk2o1o
HenrySomeone
No real need as they're doing a terrific job of that themselves; enormously disappointing Radeon 7 launch recently, all (or at least most) of the mantras of AM4 longevity down the drain with 300 chipsets, sub par performance of zen2 (compared to the hype - they might be somewhat decent in absolute terms at least for mid range) all but confirmed... Need I go any longer?

Well the other option of course is them going directly to 7nm as well which might take a bit longer but we all know what that spells for Zen2/Zen2+ :eek:
Oh you mean by a whopping 7% at 1080p and 3% at 1440p yes, abysmal performance indeed.

Please don't feed the troll ppl
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#46
Xaled
las
Ryzen still sucks for high fps gaming. When CPU becomes the bottleneck
The CPU doesn't become bottleneck in "high fps gaming". It becomes bottleneck only at low resolutions and games that doesn't scale well and benefit from high core counts, as in old DX gammes and games badly ported from consoles
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#47
notb
64K
I don't think Intel will launch their 10nm chips.
If Zen 2 is 7nm DUV (also known as N7, the same AMD used for Radeon VII), I doubt Intel really needs 10nm to compete.
They can keep polishing 14nm and focus on their 7nm - to compete with Zen 3 based on TSMC 7nm EUV (N6?) coming next year at best.
Mats
This came as no surprise, as ALL 14 nm APU's (2200G, 2400G, 2700U...) should've been part of the 1000 series. (Yes, I know they're different from the Summit Ridge 1000)

Basically, what AMD is trying to tell us is that the xxxx CPU's and the xxxxG/U APU's are not in the same series, they just happen to begin with the same number.
But most marketing materials and AGESA leaks mention Ryzen 3000-series, not Zen 2 or 7nm.
People interpret this as Zen 2, but there's no actual guarantee. X370 motherboards (after update) may as well be compatible just with Ryzen 3000-series based on Zen+ (be it APU or not).
londiste
DUV vs EUV does not necessarily have an effect on performance of the resulting chip. The difference is complexity of design and production as well as the time it takes to produce the chips. All this translates to (a lot of) money.
Correct. Which means Zen 2 is sure to be expensive*, while it's unknown at this point how much performance/efficiency gain we could get**.
It does seem like Zen 2 will be very short-lived. Basically, they're launching this only because Intel caught up on core count.
And if Zen 2 turns out to be the last generation for AM4, then the "great upgrade path" will suddenly look a lot less great.

*) so why make <=8C Zen2 at all? Why not refresh Zen+ for this segment and save Zen2 for 12-core and up? These refreshed Zen+ 3000-series would surely work on X370...
**) Radeon VII ;-(
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#48
Xaled
notb
And if Zen 2 turns out to be the last generation for AM4, then the "great upgrade path" will suddenly look a lot less great.
No. Even at 3 generations (Zen, Zen+ and Zen) it would be much greater than what Intel has been doing for almost 8 years, changing chipset every year even when there were no "technical" need for that at all.
Just stop trying to find flaws with everything AMD does and justify everything devlish Intel and it's beaouches (MSI, Asus etc) been doing
Posted on Reply
#49
HenrySomeone
notb
If Zen 2 is 7nm DUV (also known as N7, the same AMD used for Radeon VII), I doubt Intel really needs 10nm to compete.
They can keep polishing 14nm and focus on their 7nm - to compete with Zen 3 based on TSMC 7nm EUV (N6?) coming next year at best.

But most marketing materials and AGESA leaks mention Ryzen 3000-series, not Zen 2 or 7nm.
People interpret this as Zen 2, but there's no actual guarantee. X370 motherboards (after update) may as well be compatible just with Ryzen 3000-series based on Zen+ (be it APU or not).

Correct. Which means Zen 2 is sure to be expensive*, while it's unknown at this point how much performance/efficiency gain we could get**.
It does seem like Zen 2 will be very short-lived. Basically, they're launching this only because Intel caught up on core count.
And if Zen 2 turns out to be the last generation for AM4, then the "great upgrade path" will suddenly look a lot less great.

*) so why make <=8C Zen2 at all? Why not refresh Zen+ for this segment and save Zen2 for 12-core and up? These refreshed Zen+ 3000-series would surely work on X370...
**) Radeon VII ;-(
True, Intel only really needs 10nm if their 7nm is 2 or more years away, otherwise 14nm+ will easily carry them over as 7nm DUV from AMD simply won't be on par as so painfully demonstrated by the Laugheon VII (many will hurry to point out that they are two completely different things, but I beg to differ - scaling 14 -> 7 will almost certainly be very similar).
And yeah, if Zen2 in this form (with perhaps 8 cores max too boot) will be the last thing that will work on 400 series chipsets (or even 300 for that matter), then that will only be marginally better than on Intel's platforms and nowhere close to what has been so pompously advertised. :rolleyes:
Posted on Reply
#50
notb
Xaled
No. Even at 3 generations (Zen, Zen+ and Zen) it would be much greater than what Intel has been doing for almost 8 years
Intel replaces sockets often. It's not a problem for most and the rest accept it. After all, motherboard features age faster than CPU performance.

Right from the beginning we were told that AM4 will last for few years and will also work with a future revamped architecture on improved semiconductor process (i.e. more cores, higher clocks etc)
It was meant to be a big jump in performance.

Until now we got 2 generations: Zen and Zen+, the latter being just slightly faster and a bit more polished. That's hardly different from what Intel is doing.
Zen 2 is rumored to be problematic. Zen 3 seems very unlikely.

So in a fairly probable scenario AM4 will be compatible with... 2.5 generations...
Just stop trying to find flaws with everything AMD does and justify everything devlish Intel and it's beaouches (MSI, Asus etc) been doing
Intel, MSI, Asus etc...
Keep going and soon you'll be butthurt about so many companies that you'll have problems assembling a whole PC...
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