Monday, April 15th 2019

MSI Betrays AMD's Socket AM4 Longevity Promise: No Zen2 for 300-series?

Greedy motherboard vendors such as MSI want you to buy a new motherboard every two generations of processor for no sound reason at all. MSI is reportedly blocking support for 3rd generation Ryzen "Matisse" processors on its AMD 300-series chipset motherboards, including those based on high-end AMD X370 and OC-capable B350 chipsets. This would also put those who own $300 motherboards such as the X370 XPower out of luck. To recap, AMD announced on numerous occasions that it doesn't want to be a greedy clique like its competitor, by forcing motherboard upgrades and promised that socket AM4 motherboards will be backwards and forwards compatible with at least four generations of Ryzen processors, running all the way up to 2020.

This normally should mean that any 300-series motherboard must support 4th generation Ryzen processors with a simple BIOS update. Most 300-series motherboards, including from MSI, even ship with USB BIOS Flashback feature to help with forwards compatibility. Unfortunately, motherboard companies such as MSI care more about their bottom-lines than the consumer. In a support e-mail to an X370 XPower Titanium owner, MSI confirmed that it will not extend Zen 2 support to AMD 300-series. Other motherboard vendors could follow MSI's suit as a representative of another motherboard vendor, on condition of anonymity, told TechPowerUp that "Zen 2" processors have steeper electrical requirements that 300-series motherboards don't meet. This is an excuse similar to the one Intel gave for the planned obsolescence of its 100-series and 200-series chipsets, even as it was repeatedly proven that those motherboards can run and overclock 9th generation processors with custom firmware just fine. Would MSI care to explain whether a B450M PRO-M2 has a stronger VRM than an X370 XPower Titanium to warrant "Zen 2" support? Will all "Zen 2" processor SKUs have steep electrical requirements? Will there not be any SKUs with double-digit-Watt TDP ratings?

Update (16/04): MSI posted a clarification on this issue.
Source: master3553 (Reddit)
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335 Comments on MSI Betrays AMD's Socket AM4 Longevity Promise: No Zen2 for 300-series?

#76
evolucion8
lexluthermiester
Intel is slower? What drugs are you on?

Don't get me wrong, Ryzen rocks! However, IPC is a thing and Intel is ahead in that race. Not by much and that's what makes Ryzen so compelling.
Well, Intel's IPC advantage is less than 10% (Not accounting the thermal headroom that makes Intel ramp up their frequencies sky high), then uses far more power, is considerably slower on multi core performance as their SMT scaling is notably worse (Intel uses dynamic partitions while AMD used static partitions on some areas to minimize thread collision, cache trashing and threads fighting for resources), also runs cooler and is way cheaper. There is no compelling reason to buy any Intel CPU for now unless if your specific workload requires AVX and you can also manage to control the extreme heat generated when using AVX.
Posted on Reply
#77
the54thvoid
If only CD Projekt Red made motherboards. Loyalty FTW.
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#78
MeChGanG
rtwjunkie
So one bad fan on a GPU 4 generations ago, and that makes MSI crap? The rest of your statement is laughable, as their 9xx and 10xx series GPU’s have been consistently high quality and cooling.

Also, GPU’s and motherboards are separate issues. Let’s keep them that way.
I fully agree, cause:

"
When the first SSD's where introduced, everyone knew the sandforce controller of any ssd brand with it, was faster than one with a marvell controller..
But that sandforce controller had many instabillities and could be DOA or dead within 2 months.
At those days, I bought an Crucial ssd with an marvell controller.. however, if you look at the new sandforce controllers now, they are just as reliable.
So an Samsung ssd with a new sandforce controller, could be more of an upgrade, cause of their speeds and they also happen to be reliable now.
"

So you can't judge them over a poor product in the past.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the MSI practices talked about now, I'm fully against it and won't look at any product of them right now.
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#79
EarthDog
evolucion8
Well, Intel's IPC advantage is less than 10% (Not accounting the thermal headroom that makes Intel ramp up their frequencies sky high), then uses far more power, is considerably slower on multi core performance as their SMT scaling is notably worse (Intel uses dynamic partitions while AMD used static partitions on some areas to minimize thread collision, cache trashing and threads fighting for resources), also runs cooler and is way cheaper. There is no compelling reason to buy any Intel CPU for now unless if your specific workload requires AVX and you can also manage to control the extreme heat generated when using AVX.
10% is 10%. Higher overclocked clocks by ~25%. SMT efficiency is better on AMD, but most dont even use 8 cores in the first place.

Anyway, there is plenty of reason to get Intel over AMD still. It just depends on use. ;)
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#80
vMax65
I see a fair few of you have no idea how business works...I am sure the older gen MSI motherboards will work but not to the potential of the new X5 series and Motherboard manufacturers have to look to making the manufacturing profitable and If they have to wait 4 years + before people actually start upgrading, that business will die...

As importantly, coming out in such a scathing manner before we even have official word is not the right way...Yes do point out that this is something you have been told but wait until you get official word before crucifying them!
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#81
R-T-B
evolucion8
Well, Intel's IPC advantage is less than 10% (Not accounting the thermal headroom that makes Intel ramp up their frequencies sky high), then uses far more power, is considerably slower on multi core performance as their SMT scaling is notably worse (Intel uses dynamic partitions while AMD used static partitions on some areas to minimize thread collision, cache trashing and threads fighting for resources), also runs cooler and is way cheaper. There is no compelling reason to buy any Intel CPU for now unless if your specific workload requires AVX and you can also manage to control the extreme heat generated when using AVX.
Forget about all that, OC the Intel and you have a whole 'nother use case over Ryzen.
vMax65
I see a fair few of you have no idea how business works...I am sure the older gen MSI motherboards will work
Not without a bios update they won't.
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#82
RH92
RedBull108
I had enough of MSI when even the fan on the GTX 660 failed and i have seen plenty of people with the same problems on GTX 9xx/1XXX series. Crap quality overall, after that 660 i avoided them for every single component and looks like it was a good thing to do
Agent_D
I've personally never had a single MSI product work well, regardless of which tier of product it was, from the basics to high end, they've all not worked properly or at all.
You guys have to realise that MSI is one of the two major vendors along with ASUS on both motherboard and GPU sides and you don't become a leader by selling crap products !
Obviously sh*** happens with all manufacturers since fails are unavoidable no matter how good products you make but criticizing MSI on GTX 900/1000 series for example is laughable at best because they objectively had the best card/cooler !

We all agree that this is very bad move if true but please don't let your hatred speak for you .
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#83
evolucion8
If only software scaled as good as OCing.... I got massive gains by just increasing my RAM clockspeed to 3,400MHz from 2,933 before the BIOS update.
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#85
Metroid
They were comfortable with intel because intel almost thinks like them with the exception that intel wants you with a new motherboard every new cpu release, intel got so greedy that not even generation to generation cpu releases worked out for them and now msi wants amd to be like intel because amd got the cpu that will finally make them more attractive than intel for the first time in the past 14 years. Good to know, msi is banned from my list.

PS: Lets see how amd will behave as soon as its cpu becomes a success. This new motherboard business practice every intel release got to a point where it was hilarious.
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#86
Mats
GinoLatino
Maybe read the article?
I did. I've already explained why this isn't proof enough. Matisse support shouldn't even be official at this point, as some people have pointed out.
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#87
zlobby
lexluthermiester
AMD is not a part of the decision at hand. Keep the blame where it belongs.
But they could be a part of the solution. If I was AMD, I would ban a certain board manufacturer from future chip/license supplies if they pull such a dick move. Let them skip a whole generation of chipsets, next time they will think twice.

Offtopic, there are no sane mobo manufacturers left in the consumer segment...

P.S. spare me the whole asrock/asus godliness here, I've seen their BS firsthand too.
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#88
Angrybeaver
Msi boards have never been anything special. I will just stick with Asus, gigabyte, and asrock.
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#89
lexluthermiester
zlobby
Offtopic, there are no sane mobo manufacturers left in the consumer segment...

P.S. spare me the whole asrock/asus godliness here, I've seen their BS firsthand too.
True, no one is perfect. And ASUS recently had a major screwup. However, AsRock is one of the most solid makers. EVGA is another.
Posted on Reply
#90
londiste
R-T-B
Of course it does, that's how raw images work. I can promise you it has room and AT LEAST 20% of it is unused, if not more.
I started to suspect the same after seeing Taichis had the same size of image. On the other hand, my own AM4 board has BIOS image a little over 8MB so it is not universal.
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#91
lexluthermiester
Angrybeaver
Msi boards have never been anything special. I will just stick with EVGA and asrock.
Fixed that for you.

I really miss ABit, Albatron, DFI and QDI.
Posted on Reply
#92
Turmania
MSI is really tempting me to switch to ASUS....shame as I own a MB, GPU and a mouse and keyboard from them.
Posted on Reply
#93
Agent_D
RH92
You guys have to realise that MSI is one of the two major vendors along with ASUS on both motherboard and GPU sides and you don't become a leader by selling crap products !
Obviously sh*** happens with all manufacturers since fails are unavoidable no matter how good products you make but criticizing MSI on GTX 900/1000 series for example is laughable at best because they objectively had the best card/cooler !

We all agree that this is very bad move if true but please don't let your hatred speak for you .
If it was one or two products, I could understand, but I've dealt with so many MSI products (again, from all tiers, from cheap $50 boards to their highest end products) that were poorly made, poorly put together, or just outright didn't work in the last decade that I no longer recommend or buy their products. I let my experience speak for me, it's not about hatred, fanboyism or anything else, MSI has poor quality control from my experience and my wallet stopped opening for them.

MSI pulling the same stunt Intel did with the 300 series boards is just a huge slap in the face to their customers.
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#94
vMax65
Agent_D
If it was one or two products, I could understand, but I've dealt with so many MSI products (again, from all tiers, from cheap $50 boards to their highest end products) that were poorly made, poorly put together, or just outright didn't work in the last decade that I no longer recommend or buy their products. I let my experience speak for me, it's not about hatred, fanboyism or anything else, MSI has poor quality control from my experience and my wallet stopped opening for them.

MSI pulling the same stunt Intel did with the 300 series boards is just a huge slap in the face to their customers.
I have been using MSI GPU's for years and I currently have one of there latest GPU's....never had an issue.
Posted on Reply
#95
Dexiefy
Knew to avoid MSI after nVidia GPP and them happily bending over alongside Asus. Spoke miles about the companies.
Sure as hell that once I will be on the lookout for MB/GPU (which will be end of this year most likely) I will make sure to never select MSI.
Greedy shits deserve no money.
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#96
ssdpro
All you have to know is AMD will still gladly sell to MSI - because they approve.
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#97
tigger
I'm the only one
Have they just shot themselves in the foot?
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#98
mstenholm
RedBull108
Its not just a single fan, you can google it including the newer series and notice how i was not the only one on this planet with a bad msi product. It does show the quality, or lack of, of their products. Might be separate issues but i kept buying gpus and motherboards from other companies ever since and a bios update for new ryzen cpus is already available.
Please stay out off this discussing.
Posted on Reply
#99
lexluthermiester
ssdpro
All you have to know is AMD will still gladly sell to MSI - because they approve.
You can't and don't know that.
tigger
Have they just shot themselves in the foot?
We'll see. Once MSI HQ makes the official statement we'll know.
Posted on Reply
#100
AsRock
TPU addict
Greedy motherboard vendors such as MSI
And who else ?, we need this confirmed. Were is it pointed that OTHER company's are involved in this ?.

IF it turns out true i just will not buy MSI products, it's just that simple and that goes for any other company too.

Seems like more rumor and click bait atm.
Posted on Reply
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