john_I would have upvoted for this part, because you are correct. DIY market is single digit at best.

Then the "rage part" followed.

If the truth is rage bait, then I guess that I am guilty as charged. Sure, my opener there was rather charged, but so is the thread overall so, big whatever. When one's natural state is of being unhappy, you can put any amount of effort towards making them happy and it still won't happen.

Spend time around normies in gaming groups and you'll quickly realize it. Radeon cards are seen as the value option at best, and often discouraged due to the poor reputation they've amassed alongside the sheer volume of technical issues and inferior functionality over the years, which thankfully have gotten tons better recently.

Their mindshare is near zero between the casual audience that purchases products such as these prebuilts. A good analogy is, get into an iPhone fan group and try to convince them Android is better for whatever reason. You could raise any given number of valid points, and you'll be laughed out of the room. AMD needs to work on their marketing and make wise decisions regarding the gaps they're given to work with, with maximum priority.

Dr. DroIf the truth

Dr. DroSpend time around normies

I did read the rest of your post, but I want to quote you on this and just point out that it isn't the truth, only YOUR truth, what YOU consider truth. And also what you call "normies" are probably people who share the same opinion with you. I am pretty sure that there are people with different opinions that aren't categorized as "normies" by you.

Dr. DroA good analogy is, get into an iPhone fan group and try to convince them Android is better for whatever reason. You could raise any given number of valid points, and you'll be laughed out of the room.

Apple can sell at that particular group an iPhone working with coal, having a exhaust pipe for when charging. The same applies to Nvidia fans. They will avoid buying a GAMING card from AMD, because it lacks the feature X that has NOTHING to do with gaming. AMD fans will probably avoid buying Nvidia cards because of VRAM or pricing and Intel CPUs because of usually a DOA platform that wouldn't be supporting the next architecture, but probably some refresh, Intel fans will avoid buying AMD CPUs because they consider them unstable, non compatible and probably products for poor people.

But are we talking about fans, or just consumers? 90% of people buying PCs don't know what CPU or GPU their PCs have. They might have heard in the past the name Intel. I doubt they even know Nvidia's name, not to mention AMD's. Intel's name was synonymous to PCs until a couple decades ago, that's why they might know Intel. They might know Nvidia from news about AI datacenters, but how many of them will remember the name when buying a PC. Some might know AMD's name because of the APU in their console, but will they remember that name when buying a PC? Can people hearing Nvidia's and AMD's name associate those names with PC parts or even consider that those companies also make PC parts and not just AI accelerators and APUs for consoles? For us it makes sense to think this, for the majority of people, not so much.

AMD's problem was always supply as mentioned above. They will not buy excess capacity at TSMC because they know that they can end up with a huge unsalable inventory. If they where buying a mountain of GPU dies for cheap RX 9070 XTs models to offer to OEMs, the next day Nvidia would be offering to OEMs the RTX 5070 at half the price and still make a profit. Obviously the price in the DIY market would remain at MSRP, it will be an OEM only deal. So, they use their capacity for CPUs, console APUs and Instinct cards that they know they will eventually sell at profit.

john_But are we talking about fans, or just consumers? 90% of people buying PCs don't know what CPU or GPU their PCs have. They might have heard in the past the name Intel. I doubt they even know Nvidia's name, not to mention AMD's. Intel's name was synonymous to PCs until a couple decades ago, that's why they might know Intel. They might know Nvidia from news about AI datacenters, but how many of them will remember the name when buying a PC. Some might know AMD's name because of the APU in their console, but will they remember that name when buying a PC? Can people hearing Nvidia's and AMD's name associate those names with PC parts or even consider that those companies also make PC parts and not just AI accelerators and APUs for consoles? For us it makes sense to think this, for the majority of people, not so much.

AMD's problem was always supply as mentioned above. They will not buy excess capacity at TSMC because they know that they can end up with a huge unsalable inventory. If they where buying a mountain of GPU dies for cheap RX 9070 XTs models to offer to OEMs, the next day Nvidia would be offering to OEMs the RTX 5070 at half the price and still make a profit. Obviously the price in the DIY market would remain at MSRP, it will be an OEM only deal. So, they use their capacity for CPUs, console APUs and Instinct cards that they know they will eventually sell at profit.

Right. But here's the interesting part: you make a case, and then contradict yourself and then proceed to justify that contradictive argument with the exact thing I was going to write back. If they are fearing unsellable inventory and then proceed to use their silicon allotment to make products they deem to be of higher margin, lower maintenance, and better volume, it's because the demand isn't strong enough. Which in turn points out to a poorer than expected market performance for the product that has been deprioritized. It's not rocket science. How to drum up demand? Marketing, developing mindshare. Garnering as much good will as possible with their existing and potential future customers. They can do it, but somehow they don't seem interested in it. Turns out it's not my truth after all.

Dr. DroRight. But here's the interesting part: you make a case, and then contradict yourself and then proceed to justify that contradictive argument with the exact thing I was going to write back. If they are fearing unsellable inventory and then proceed to use their silicon allotment to make products they deem to be of higher margin, lower maintenance, and better volume, it's because the demand isn't strong enough. Which in turn points out to a poorer than expected market performance for the product that has been deprioritized. It's not rocket science. How to drum up demand? Marketing, developing mindshare. Garnering as much good will as possible with their existing and potential future customers. They can do it, but somehow they don't seem interested in it. Turns out it's not my truth after all.

Where is the contradiction?

john_Where is the contradiction?

Unsellable inventory. If the well-known mantra of "there is no bad hardware, there are only bad prices" remains a constant, and all indicates that it does, then any potential unsellable inventory points out to weak demand. This is clearly not a case of a mere supply issue, that much is obvious. If it was a supply issue, you'd find a lot more options, with limited stock of course. And a lot more action towards procuring the products.

Dr. DroMarketing, developing mindshare. Garnering as much good will as possible with their existing and potential future customers.

They can do it

You're seem to have more faith in AMD than I do :laugh:


AMD's marketing trainwreck stretches back so long, it's absolutely astounding. They never fail to miss an opportunity to make themselves look bad.
Really, when was the last time AMD's Radeon marketing/PR team actually did their jobs correctly? I cannot remember anymore. Be it the recent stuff around FSR4 support for older cards (INT8's out of the bag, even if it's not great, give the people what they want. Don't dance around the subject with excuses. DLSS 4.5's performance hit is larger with older RTX cards, but Nvidia made expectations clear with a disclaimer and still allow people the option of using it.), Vega/RDNA/RDNA2 driver support (IMO a product that's still being actively manufactured and sold as new should not be relegated to 2nd class driver support, regardless of how mature AMD believes their drivers to be. It's bad optics. Pleeeenty of Vega and RDNA2 iGPUs are still being pumped out as we speak.), Frank Azor's $10 bet about RDNA2 card availability (Bro, why even? Just shut up. He did not have to make that stupid bet.), or even all the way back to "Poor Volta", it's just a really long string of failure. They're cocky when it's not warranted, love to make statements they fail to deliver on, and are often incredibly tone-deaf.

Edit: Oh, and that AI bundle they're packing in with the drivers next week. Because people were totally clamoring for that kind of thing, right? AMD, please...

sLowEndYou're seem to have more faith in AMD than I do :laugh:


AMD's marketing trainwreck stretches back so long, it's absolutely astounding. They never fail to miss an opportunity to make themselves look bad.
Really, when was the last time AMD's Radeon marketing/PR team actually did their jobs correctly? I cannot remember anymore. Be it the recent stuff around FSR4 support for older cards (INT8's out of the bag, even if it's not great, give the people what they want. Don't dance around the subject with excuses. DLSS 4.5's performance hit is larger with older RTX cards, but Nvidia made expectations clear with a disclaimer and still allow people the option of using it.), Vega/RDNA/RDNA2 driver support (IMO a product that's still being actively manufactured and sold as new should not be relegated to 2nd class driver support, regardless of how mature AMD believes their drivers to be. It's bad optics. Pleeeenty of Vega and RDNA2 iGPUs are still being pumped out as we speak.), Frank Azor's $10 bet about RDNA2 card availability (Bro, why even? Just shut up. He did not have to make that stupid bet.), or even all the way back to "Poor Volta", it's just a really long string of failure. They're cocky when it's not warranted, love to make statements they fail to deliver on, and are often incredibly tone-deaf.

Contrary to popular belief and my reputation here... I actually do place some faith on them, perhaps rather foolishly. I'm just willing to admit to and bring up some inconvenient truths. I'm actually rather pleased with the current generation, I just have several questions as to its long term viability, mostly due to the lack of perceived effort in maintaining their existing products.

Dr. Droand my reputation here

What reputation do you think you have? You converse articulately and politely, you're not rude, you don't name call, you don't appear to deal in outright fallacious arguments. Everyone has opinions and bias, based on their experiences and knowledge, we don't always agree, but in discussing, debating and sharing ideas we can all get somewhere and learn along the way, well... most of the time.

I think what happens too often is people perceive a pattern of opinion, and want to ascribe them a label, a label that allows them to more or less write that person off because it's easier to dismiss them based on said label, their perception is their reality.

For the life of me I don't know what reputation you have here though, I haven't noticed a pattern beyond good engagement.

Dr. DroTheir mindshare is near zero between the casual audience

That is the part where you're correct, imo. The thing is that I'm not sure what AMD can do when the audience is full of people (such as yourself) parroting that "AMD is full of issues" and "AMD is the budget option", and other nonsense like that, when it hasn't been the case for a good 3 generations at least. If credit was given where credit is due, then this wouldn't be an issue, and people wouldn't dismiss RDNA 4 based on real or perceived problems they might have had in the past with other products. Similarly, people wouldn't be recommending products such as the 5070 Ti that is 30-50% more expensive (depending on region) than the equally capable 9070 XT purely based on Nvidia's track record of cards and drivers that "just work" while falsely believing that AMD needs tinkering, when in fact, it doesn't.

Like you said, you can't convince an iPhone fan that Android is good. Similarly, you can't convince the average gamer that AMD is good. They will always find something to pick on, no matter how hard you try. The 9070 XT proves it very well by being beaten on sales by the 5070 Ti that doesn't have more to offer for a significantly higher price.

Let this be the verdict in the "fanboy" argument.

AusWolf5070 Ti that is [citation needed]% more expensive (depending on region) than the equally capable 9070 XT... The 9070 XT.. being beaten on sales by the 5070 Ti that doesn't have more to offerfor a significantly higher price.

Let this be the verdict in the "fanboy" argument.

Is it a verdict in the sense that you purposely omitt the things a 5070Ti does better? The ways that a 5070Ti positively differentiates itself from a 9070XT not mattering to you, do not make them non-existent, and those things mattering to other people do not make them fanboys.

Dr. DroUnsellable inventory. If the well-known mantra of "there is no bad hardware, there are only bad prices" remains a constant, and all indicates that it does, then any potential unsellable inventory points out to weak demand. This is clearly not a case of a mere supply issue, that much is obvious. If it was a supply issue, you'd find a lot more options, with limited stock of course. And a lot more action towards procuring the products.

It's not a contradictory. We can close our eyes of course to reality and pretend that things are different in the world, but the current situation in the GPU market can make an excellent product from AMD at an excellent price, unsalable. What needs to happen is Nvidia to lower it's prices and even with a worst product at a somewhat worst price it will sell way better. We could see it when RTX 3050 was killing RX 6600 while being worst performance and worst priced, we can see it now that an 8GB RTX 5060 Ti is more expensive, with half VRAM, cut down PCIe bus at X8 and still sells much better, maybe 5-10 times better than the 16GB version of RX 9060XT. Why? Because on the internet we will find hordes of people saying that AMD cards are bad, they lack features, they brake, their drivers brake, their upscaling is junk, their Frame Generation is junk, their picture quality is junk and let's not forget, buying AMD hardware is an indication of being poor. It's all over the internet and above there is a comment saying that "there are no Nvidia fans, only AMD fans".
Nvidia sells 9 to 1. They can drop their profit margin to just 10% if they feel threatened and still make a nice profit, while people will be celebrating Nvidia as being charitable and supportive to gamers. If they do that, AMD will have a ton of hardware to sell at a loss, because even if they where dropping for example the RX 9070 XT at $450, people would still find it expensive next to an RTX 5070 12GB at $480. People will still go with an RTX 5060 Ti 8 GB at $380, finding an excuse that they don't need the extra 8GB VRAM, they can match performance with Multi Frame Generation, consider the extra proprietary non gaming Nvidia features of the 5060 as of highly importance and at the same time celebrate because they are saving $70.
So, there is no contradiction. It's just the current reality in the GPU market that doesn't offer much options to AMD to take risks that will just blow up in it's face.
You know something? For years AMD was playing the efficiency card in CPUs. Until Zen 3 AMD was trying to keep it's CPUs efficient. You know what happened? AMD seen people drooling at 300W Intel CPUs, because they where beating the 150W max wattage AMD CPUs by 1-5% in gaming. So with Zen 4 they droped that. When the average consumer says to AMD "Sc...w you, lower prices only because I want to buy hardware from your competitors at lower prices" for over 15 years, AMD will just stop trying to get market share in the gaming market. When there are more fabs and capacity available, if they even manage to have a better product than Nvidia that they can manufacture at a lower cost than Nvidia, then they might start trying to get market share again. But I doubt this time will ever come. In fact the only one who can fight Nvidia, maybe in 10 years, is Intel, because Intel owns fabs, meaning it will be costing them much less to build GPUs that would be able to go against Nvidia's best.

wolfIs it a verdict in the sense that you purposely omitt the things a 5070Ti does better?

Like what? CUDA? If you need that for work, then I agree, the 5070 Ti is the logical choice for you. In all other cases (relating to gaming), the 9070 XT offers you a similar experience for much less money.

john_So, there is no contradiction. It's just the current reality in the GPU market that doesn't offer much options to AMD to take risks that will just blow up in it's face.
You know something? For years AMD was playing the efficiency card in CPUs. Until Zen 3 AMD was trying to keep it's CPUs efficient. You know what happened? AMD seen people drooling at 300W Intel CPUs, because they where beating the 150W max wattage AMD CPUs by 1-5% in gaming. So with Zen 4 they droped that. When the average consumer says to AMD "Sc...w you, lower prices only because I want to buy hardware from your competitors at lower prices" for over 15 years, AMD will just stop trying to get market share in the gaming market. When there are more fabs and capacity available, if they even manage to have a better product than Nvidia that they can manufacture at a lower cost than Nvidia, then they might start trying to get market share again. But I doubt this time will ever come. In fact the only one who can fight Nvidia, maybe in 10 years, is Intel, because Intel owns fabs, meaning it will be costing them much less to build GPUs that would be able to go against Nvidia's best.

Now that you mentioned it, Zen 5, specifically the 9800X3D is proof that people happily put up with a significantly higher price and power consumption (than the previous flagship 7800X3D) for an extra 5% performance. Maybe that's what they need in the GPU department as well... a 1 kW graphics card for $2000 that beats the 5090 by 3%.

AusWolfIn all other cases (relating to gaming), the 9070 XT offers you a similar experience for much less money.

Currently, yes.
But it varies a lot. Up until about August RX 9070 XT was way over MSRP, but since around November it has been fairly consistently below RTX 5070 Ti. On top of that you have regional differences, some may carry less AMD cards leading to higher effective prices.

efikkanCurrently, yes.
But it varies a lot. Up until about August RX 9070 XT was way over MSRP, but since around November it has been fairly consistently below RTX 5070 Ti. On top of that you have regional differences, some may carry less AMD cards leading to higher effective prices.

The 5070 Ti was way above MSRP as well, selling for 1k+ (over here at least). In general, all graphics cards were above MSRP at that time.

AusWolfthe 9070 XT offers you a similar experience for much less money

Similar, sure I'll grant you similar. Look this has been covered ad-nauseum in multiple 9070XT VS 5070ti threads, but it's foolish to deny there are differences in these products, differences that reasonable and average pc gamers could or would want for reasonable reasons.

Nobody needs you to agree DLSS is better and more widely supported, which it is. Nobody needs you to agree the 5070ti is more efficient, which it is. Nobody needs you to agree it has superior RT / PT capability, which it does. The 5070ti has MFG, the 9070XT does not.

You not agreeing the reasons are worth any price difference whatsoever because you personally don't see the value in them doesn't erase the differences, and doesn't necessitate someone who purchased a 5070ti over a 9070XT being a fanboy.

Let this be the verdict in the "fanboy" argument.

john_So, there is no contradiction. It's just the current reality in the GPU market that doesn't offer much options to AMD to take risks that will just blow up in it's face.
You know something? For years AMD was playing the efficiency card in CPUs. Until Zen 3 AMD was trying to keep it's CPUs efficient. You know what happened? AMD seen people drooling at 300W Intel CPUs, because they where beating the 150W max wattage AMD CPUs by 1-5% in gaming. So with Zen 4 they droped that. When the average consumer says to AMD "Sc...w you, lower prices only because I want to buy hardware from your competitors at lower prices" for over 15 years, AMD will just stop trying to get market share in the gaming market. When there are more fabs and capacity available, if they even manage to have a better product than Nvidia that they can manufacture at a lower cost than Nvidia, then they might start trying to get market share again. But I doubt this time will ever come. In fact the only one who can fight Nvidia, maybe in 10 years, is Intel, because Intel owns fabs, meaning it will be costing them much less to build GPUs that would be able to go against Nvidia's best.

AMD took risks with RDNA3 using chiplets, providing raw raster performance with often double the VRAM of its competitors, and we know how that panned out with AMD taking a risk with higher end gpu's.
Even though Radeon cards are much cheaper, the loudest fans always have to provide their preconceived opinions, on many things like drivers being bad, or insisting everyone needs features that most may not care about when buying a gaming card. I personally couldn't give a sh%^ about CUDA, I just want a GPU for games, and the better Linux support is important because MS is set on cramming AI into everything while the lack of any QA ruins every other aspect of the OS.
When AMD undercuts Nvidia, people complain that AMD are the crappy budget option, when prices go up even where AMD can't control pricing, people whine prices are too high, but Nvidia for some reason gets a pass there. Intel could choose to fight against Nvidia in the high end if they wanted to, but so far Intel has yet to gain much of any marketshare, for many of the same reasons AMD can't gain any market share, a lack of "features" locked behind a proprietary ecosystem, or the "premium" status that Nvidia owners feel they have because the average consumer only knows what Nvidia is.

sLowEndEdit: Oh, and that AI bundle they're packing in with the drivers next week. Because people were totally clamoring for that kind of thing, right? AMD, please...

I won't even bother with the "AMD marketing bad" because it's a tiring argument, also because it's not like Nvidia's marketing is any better, ie. the claim of a 5070 being as fast as a 4090, or their use of vague performance graphs, and making performance claims with upscaling and frame gen on.
As a consumer I can just ignore all the marketing BS and simply focus on price to performance value.
I've seen plenty of people complain that AMD lacks AI features, apparently the AI bundle is optional, it seems like AMD can't win either way and people will nitpick something to complain about.

AusWolfThe 5070 Ti was way above MSRP as well, selling for 1k+ (over here at least). In general, all graphics cards were above MSRP at that time.

Back then, you could find RTX 5070 Ti around MSRP globally, unlike RX 9070 XT which had very constrained supplies for the first few months.

Supplies for GPUs overall have been very good in Q4, and there have been various discounts from both vendors as well since November, not just on Black Friday. (In my country I saw one shop selling >430 of a single SKU of RX 9070 XT within 24h in December, at a slight discount.) There has clearly been a lot of consumers getting their hands on some very decent GPUs over the past months.

I'm not so concerned about GPUs getting too hard to get, but rather (primarily) shops overpricing products due to sustained demand. We have to remember that even if supply is going down ~20%, that's 20% down from a very high supply, nowhere near these companies abandoning gamers like some are claiming (even though I hate this "AI" BS as more than most of you).

Dr. DroOnce you bring in the largest and more famous system integrators known worldwide, you'll find that the statistics are more than likely accurate. No large system integrator works with Radeon GPUs because most customers don't want them. Just as a few examples:

AI or System integrators that's nvidia. You can buy only as much as is offered aviously. By default system integrators are purchased by people who knows nothing about pc's terrible value and most likely not optimal pc components are used. They just throw a bone like to a dogs and it's enough. :kookoo:

Free thinking is different if you know more about PC's not just purchasing in autopilot mode (without using brains)

Krit in TechPowerUp 2025 discrete GPU PollVoting applies only for new generation discrete GPUs Intel ARC B580/B570, AMD Radeon RX 9000 Series, GeForce RTX 50 Series. Let's see the forums actual numbers. :eek: Pull the trigger! We need at leas…

wolfSimilar, sure I'll grant you similar. Look this has been covered ad-nauseum in multiple 9070XT VS 5070ti threads, but it's foolish to deny there are differences in these products, differences that reasonable and average pc gamers could or would want for reasonable reasons.

You not agreeing the reasons are worth any price difference whatsoever because you personally don't see the value in them doesn't erase the differences, and doesn't necessitate someone who purchased a 5070ti over a 9070XT being a fanboy.

Let this be the verdict in the "fanboy" argument.

Through all that coverage in those multiple threads, not a single point from anyone could convince me that the 5070 Ti has any gaming-related advantage that's worth paying a premium for over the 9070 XT, nor will I recommend anyone to do so. The DLSS argument is meaningless when we have FSR 4, the RT gap has closed, and there is literally nothing else left. At the same price, sure, get the 5070 Ti, but don't pay a premium. The rest is fanboyism. This is my verdict.

efikkanBack then, you could find RTX 5070 Ti around MSRP globally

No, you couldn't. Not even near.

Dr. DroA good analogy is, get into an iPhone fan group and try to convince them Android is better for whatever reason.

That's actually a poor analogy, there's a lot of positives with Android that aren't available on iPhones, and I'd personally say it's the superior product by far. Practically they both do the same thing, really. On the other hand it's not possible to do the same with AMD and NVIDIA, the former is so far behind in features, compute, and software support that the only argument you could have is superior value for gaming workloads only.

john_They will avoid buying a GAMING card from AMD, because it lacks the feature X that has NOTHING to do with gaming.

AMD lacks pulsar, that's a massive one right there. Prior to Blackwell they also lacked PhysX if you cared about that.

Rover4444That's actually a poor analogy, there's a lot of positives with Android that aren't available on iPhones, and I'd personally say it's the superior product by far. Practically they both do the same thing, really.

That's not the point. The point is that those iPhone fans would always come up with some nonsense to to maintain their superiority complex. Such as:

Rover4444On the other hand it's not possible to do the same with AMD and NVIDIA, the former is so far behind in features, compute, and software support that the only argument you could have is superior value for gaming workloads only.

Perfect example of the above nonsense, thank you. It's crazy to pretend that 94% of gamers choose Nvidia because of CUDA.

Rover4444AMD lacks pulsar, that's a massive one right there. Prior to Blackwell they also lacked PhysX if you cared about that.

AMD lacked Nvidia exclusive features that Nvidia locked to their own GPUs? What a crazy world we live in!

On the other hand, if you support being locked into using only one vendor forever, be my guest.

Dr. DroContrary to popular belief and my reputation here... I actually do place some faith on them, perhaps rather foolishly. I'm just willing to admit to and bring up some inconvenient truths. I'm actually rather pleased with the current generation, I just have several questions as to its long term viability, mostly due to the lack of perceived effort in maintaining their existing products.

I'm checked out on AMD. I'm all in on Intel though baby!

AusWolfThrough all that coverage in those multiple threads, not a single point from anyone could convince me that the 5070 Ti has any gaming-related advantage that's worth paying a premium for over the 9070 XT,

Pulsar.

AusWolfThrough all that coverage in those multiple threads, not a single point from anyone could convince me that the 5070 Ti has any gaming-related advantage that's worth paying a premium for over the 9070 XT, nor will I recommend anyone to do so. The DLSS argument is meaningless when we have FSR 4, the RT gap has closed, and there is literally nothing else left. At the same price, sure, get the 5070 Ti, but don't pay a premium. The rest is fanboyism. This is my verdict.

RTX 5070 Ti is better (DLSS and Cuda) but definitely not +340€ better when using similar cooling that's what it costs. I would say it's 150€ better but nothing more than that.

Hecate91Intel could choose to fight against Nvidia in the high end if they wanted to,

Are you kidding me? Maybe if they wanted their GPU to be 900W. Just look at the die sizes for the B580 and the 4060, we're not going to see Intel compete on the high end until Druid.

Also Intel has been doing VERY well given their age, they're getting closer to feature parity in three years versus AMD in what, a decade?

Rover4444Are you kidding me? Maybe if they wanted their GPU to be 900W. Just look at the die sizes for the B580 and the 4060, we're not going to see Intel compete on the high end until Druid.

It's so far behind that even at 900w it's quite questionable.

Rover4444Also Intel has been doing VERY well given their age, they're getting closer to feature parity in three years versus AMD in what, a decade?

Agree AMD is quite slow when it comes to FSR/Cuda alternatives.