This isn't about money, you clearly missed the irony of purchasing a used car priced GPU

Again it's always about money with you, and you mean to tell me that your system spends more time at 100% load than at idle?

AusWolfPower is not about money. It's about heat and cooling requirements. Not everybody wants or needs a custom loop with a 420 mm rad.

Can you explain which CPU's need a 420mm AIO?

I ran my 14900K with a 240mm AIO, ZERO issues, ran my 285K with a 240M AIO ZERO issues.

I wanted to use an AIO on my 225 system so I took the 240MM AIO from my 285K and put a 360mm AIO and again without issues

Tyler-98-W68Again it's always about money with you, and you mean to tell me that your system spends more time at 100% load than at idle? I find that hard to believe, again your jealousy is showing again, try harder poor.

Mine does. I crunch WCG. When I'm not, I turn the PC off. It doesn't need to be running when it's not doing anything.

Tyler-98-W68Can you explain which CPU's need a 420mm AIO?

I ran my 14900K with a 240mm AIO, ZERO issues, ran my 285K with a 240M AIO ZERO issues.

I wanted to use an AIO on my 225 system so I took the 240MM AIO from my 285K and put a 360mm AIO and again without issues anything nothing overheating, you make a great amount of assumptions despite never using that hardware you love to shit talk

Sure, you can also run a 9950X with a Wraith Prism with zero issues thanks to thermal limits. It doesn't mean it's ideal.

Also, let's not sink to making things personal, please.

AusWolfMine does. I crunch WCG. When I'm not, I turn the PC off. It doesn't need to be running when it's not doing anything.


Sure, you can also run a 9950X with a Wraith Prism with zero issues thanks to thermal limits. It doesn't mean it's ideal.

Also, let's not sink to making things personal, please.

Is that the computer that fits on your bedside table too? Steam machine you are all horny about is gonna spend its life at 100% load all the time too?

Tyler-98-W68Is that the computer that fits on your bedside table too? Steam machine you are all horny about is gonna spend its life at 100% load all the time too?

No, it's my main rig. There's no need to bring the Steam Machine into this conversation. With that said, I turn all of my computers off when they're not in use. Idle power use is really not a thing for me.

C'mon, dude, there's no need to be an arse.

Sure, you can also run a 9950X with a Wraith Prism with zero issues thanks to thermal limits. It doesn't mean it's ideal.

Also, let's not sink to making things personal, please.

You seem to be comparing a stock air cooler from an AMD rig as being a poor choice? So you also automatically assume a 240mm AIO is not sufficient either?

Tyler-98-W68You seem to be comparing a stock air cooler from an AMD rig as being a poor choice? So you also automatically assume a 240mm AIO is not sufficient either?

Considering that an average 240 mm AIO is around the level of the D15 in the below chart, I would say it's borderline acceptable (looking at the stock 88 °C value). Not sure if that makes you feel any better or worse.



It's also worth noting that some AMD CPUs are equally guilty, despite the lower power consumption.

I wish we got reviews of non-K Intel chips, too. Those are the ones to truly compete with the 7700, 7800X3D and 9700X which are my favourite chips here.

Tek-CheckAnd? Was it worse than the then competition?

No idea, I wasn't comparing. It was mostly to see if it was worth limiting power at different points. ECO mode is surprisingly well tuned on Ryzen

Hecate91In light loads perhaps, I assumed others were talking about full idle.

Well I mean with intel general computing tasks still use less power than amd's full idle... so yeah the way I usually phrase it is, AMD has the best at load efficiency, and intel has the best idle/low load efficiency.

-------------

We really ought to shift the whole intel vs amd thing to x86 vs arm. Because imo, thats where the threats truly lies. And if diy pcs become arm, mobos will come packaged with cpus and possibly ram too. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, not everything has to be seen from the lens of amd vs intel. Infact, they are even coordinating now. We should really get out of that mindset.

I mean arm does have benefits. And maybe I'm in the wrong for wanting to stick with x86 instead of embracing new technology, not being able to see the future and all. But I want the ability to build pcs ( not just stick in an ssd and gpu) to continue, and I don't want all the compatibility problems with old software.

If either AMD or INTEL fell ( well they'd more likely be bought off - but for what purpose is unknown) I don't think the other would be willing to fill the gap in the consumer market when silicon can make more profit in other places. So.... in comes arm.

Do you get what I'm saying? Both companies survival in x86 is literally key to custom built pcs as we know them.... continuing period.

I look through that lens.

iameatingjamWell I mean with intel general computing tasks still use less power than amd's full idle... so yeah the way I usually phrase it is, AMD has the best at load efficiency, and intel has the best idle/low load efficiency.

The 7800X3D begs to differ (as for low load efficiency, I mean).

AusWolfThe 7800X3D begs to differ (as for low load efficiency, I mean).

Don't you see a problem when people that want to attack Intel for it's power draw ignore 2/3 of intels skus and focus on the overclocked / unlocked high performance and or extremely binned KS chips? Why do you think that is? I haven't seen anyone say amd draws 250w and intel 35w (even though it's factual, if you compare high end ryzen to a 14900t). But it would be a stupid thing to say, since power limits are arbitrary and can be changed.

tsurugiCan you find actual examples? I think intel's p/e core scheduling works very well and haven't encountered any problems. In game testing, 8p16e improves game performance by 5% compared to 8p. This is contrary to your statement, which might be made up based on the myth that intel's hybrid arch has problems.

Atom cores are notorious for confusing the Windows scheduler. And ultimately you want all threads to finish the task at the same time. But some will lag behind anyway because some AI, sound, the main thread itself, or Nvidia driver overhead is not on a standalone core. I had such a case where the main thread choked the thread with the nvidia driver and everything went to hell.. So the Powerful Core is what you want for all these threads to coexist on, and luckily it all works out in the end. But it is not pretty. Now with Nova the Atom cores are supposedly 20-30% better, including AVX10, making it significantly better, while the P core is 10-15% with the addition of a seventh execution port and ALU, that's just a speculation, but how other way are they getting IPC improvement, so eventually Atom will catch up and replace them, becoming a unified core and then everything will become the same thing, but we are at a point of diminishing returns.. So this is all temporary and messy. 20% on top of 28% on 32% uplift on tremont atom core, or 150-70% skylake IPC.

AusWolfThe 7800X3D begs to differ (as for low load efficiency, I mean).

Multithreaded performance doesn't count? What's the IPC and single thread performance difference between a 7800x3d vs a 265k?

Everybody cares about idle power, even if they say otherwise, because that is paying for getting nothing in return, in notebooks it decreases battery life, it increases the need for cooling, etc. Idle power is 100% negative phenomenon.

Unnecessary 20W of idle power running 8 hours a day year long is 60 kWh wasted. If you were running AC for a third of a year and required 6W of cooling power to cool this 20W, you wasted 66 kWh. You could have run a powerful 2kW appliance for 33 hours with this wasted energy, this is not negligible at all.

These premature discussions about unreleased products can get very frustrating at times, but at least show that people are excited about the upcoming products.

JustBenchingDon't you see a problem when people that want to attack Intel for it's power draw ignore 2/3 of intels skus and focus on the overclocked / unlocked high performance and or extremely binned KS chips? Why do you think that is?

Honestly, I think it's because you don't see reviews of non-K Intel CPUs anywhere, which is a real shame. I only had Intel systems from the Core 2 era up until 11th gen Core (except for a stray FX-8150), and not once did I go for a K CPU.

JustBenchingI haven't seen anyone say amd draws 250w and intel 35w (even though it's factual, if you compare high end ryzen to a 14900t). But it would be a stupid thing to say, since power limits are arbitrary and can be changed.

That is true, and it's a valid argument on an enthusiast forum, but we should also keep in mind that not everybody wants, or knows how, or cares to do that, when taking about the product in general.

Tyler-98-W68Multithreaded performance doesn't count? What's the IPC and single thread performance difference between a 7800x3d vs a 265k?

The argument was that Intel has better low load efficiency. I brought up an example on the contrary. Not once was performance or IPC mentioned.

AusWolfThe 7800X3D begs to differ (as for low load efficiency, I mean).

So thats single threaded under load doing audio encode? Thats not really what I meant. Regular consumer computer applications don't use cores that way. They don't max out a single one and leave the rest idle, unless its a very old program. Anyway that really wasn't the point of my post and this line of inquiry only serves to further divide when that was really the exact opposite of my intention.

Also 7800x3d, one cpu, not amd as a whole. I see a lot of amd at the bottom there. And under what configuration are thesse cpus? Who knows? I've seen 7800x3d idle using more power than whats on the chart there.

But I don't care. You like the 7800x3d... then use it. I just think its possible that if we keep fighting over amd and intel.... arm is gonna sneak up and ruin it all.

EDIT: Lets unite the tribes. I mean amd and intel are already doing it themselves. They see the threat. So should we.

BoggledBeagleEverybody cares about idle power, even if they say otherwise, because that is paying for getting nothing in return, in notebooks it decreases battery life, it increases the need for cooling, etc. Idle power is 100% negative phenomenon.

Idle power consumption doesn't raise cooling requirements. You could argue that a 20 W idle is high, but it's still only 20 W on your cooler at the end of the day. The cooler that's designed to dissipate 100+ W.

BoggledBeagleUnnecessary 20W of idle power running 8 hours a day year long is 60 kWh wasted. If you were running AC for a third of a year and required 6W of cooling power to cool this 20W, you wasted 66 kWh. You could have run a powerful 2kW appliance for 33 hours with this wasted energy, this is not negligible at all.

Why would you run idle for 8 hours a day? Unless your job is editing documents from home because you're a writer or something, or tech support, then your point is valid. But even then, that 60 kWh a year is about £30 in the ever so expensive UK, which is £2.5 a month. Not exactly a buying criterion, imo.

BoggledBeagleThese premature discussions about unreleased products can get very frustrating at times, but at least show that people are excited about the upcoming products.

Agreed. :)

iameatingjamSo thats single threaded under load doing audio encode? Thats not really what I meant. Regular consumer computer applications don't use cores that way. They don't max out a single one and leave the rest idle, unless its a very old program. Anyway that really wasn't the point of my post and this line of inquiry only serves to further divide when that was really the exact opposite of my intention.

Then you must have had something very specific in mind, because what I presented is a low (single) threaded workload. Care to elaborate?

iameatingjamAlso 7800x3d, one cpu, not amd as a whole. Under what configuration? Who knows?

Also the 7700. Also the 9700X. Also the 7950X3D. All at stock settings.

iameatingjamBut I don't care. You like the 7800x3d... then use it. I just think its possible that if we keep fighting over amd and intel.... arm is gonna sneak up and ruin it all.

So if I like a CPU, that invalidates any argument for it? Can I only talk about things that I don't like?

iameatingjamEDIT: Lets unite the tribes. I mean amd and intel are already doing it themselves. They see the threat. So should we.

Oh I'm not tribal. Just read back my last post where I talked about owning only Intel CPUs for 10+ years. Even before then, I was alternating between the two, always looking for what suits my needs better. AMD happens to suit my needs better now. That doesn't mean I don't care, or that I only come here to argue, far from it.

AusWolfIdle power consumption doesn't raise cooling requirements. You could argue that a 20 W idle is high, but it's still only 20 W on your cooler at the end of the day. The cooler that's designed to dissipate 100+ W.


Why would you run idle for 8 hours a day? Unless your job is editing documents from home because you're a writer or something, or tech support, then your point is valid. But even then, that 60 kWh a year is about £30 in the ever so expensive UK, which is £2.5 a month. Not exactly a buying criterion, imo.


Agreed. :)


Then you must have had something very specific in mind, because what I presented is a low (single) threaded workload. Care to elaborate?


Also the 7700. Also the 9700X. Also the 7950X3D. All at stock settings.


So if I like a CPU, that invalidates any argument for it? Can I only talk about things that I don't like?


Oh I'm not tribal. Just read back my last post where I talked about owning only Intel CPUs for 10+ years. Even before then, I was alternating between the two, always looking for what suits my needs better. AMD happens to suit my needs better now. That doesn't mean I don't care, or that I only come here to argue, far from it.

I'm not accusing you of anything. Just trying to make a point.

And I know you used intel for a long time.

AusWolfWhy would you run idle for 8 hours a day? Unless your job is editing documents from home because you're a writer or something, or tech support, then your point is valid. But even then, that 60 kWh a year is about £30 in the ever so expensive UK, which is £2.5 a month. Not exactly a buying criterion, imo.

Maybe we are all confused and have different meanings of idle. What I mean by idle is very low load tasks like browsing, excel spreadsheets and stuff like that. For example my normal job involves a lot of web tabs, a lot of excel sheets and running a bunch of accounting programs (which are super lightweight, they just burden the server where the databases are on). Those are all lightweight tasks, and in a normal workday doing these 12900k is usually averaging 8 watts. The 9800x 3d for the month I had it doing the same tasks was averaging a bit under 40. I'd assume the 9700x would do similarlyish.

Now is that a huge difference? No, not really. But the difference in gaming power draw isn't that much different either. Actually in gaming the difference is much smaller as a percentage of your total power one PC will be drawing 465w (270k + a 300w gpu + rest components) and the other one 420w (9700x + 300w gpu + rest). That's a 10% difference. On the other hand in idle lower power workloads the difference is ~60w vs ~90+w. That's 33% more.

AusWolfSo if I like a CPU, that invalidates any argument for it? Can I only talk about things that I don't like?

When it comes to the 7800x3d. Say whatever you want.... in a thread about amd or x3d cpus, or gaming in general, or really any thread that isn't specifically about an intel launch.

The things aren't even out yet and people are already making up their minds on them. And with that chart... I've seen 7800x3ds use more power than that doing absolutely nothing.

But whatever, even if I give you the benefit of the doubt here.... Its not worth arguing over.

There's pros and cons and a lot of a variables and different words mean different things to people which makes these conversations.... non-productive.

DIYs very existence is at risk right now. We need both companies to do well if we want diy to survive. It just seems so... pointless to argue over a few watts, especially in a thread like this.

If somebody comes along and asks, well that might be a more appropriate place for your opinions on the x3d imo.

I'm gonna withhold judgement on intel until they actually release. Tbh, I'm mostly worried about price. Do they have the scale to compete with tsmc when using their own fabs? I guess we'll find out.

N/Afinish the task at the same time. But some will lag behind anyway

SMT is typical, which can cause resource competition issues. The OS recognizes threads rather than physical cores.
For the os, p core, e core, and smt threads are just execution tools for tasks. And unless you disable smt and only use physical cores, it is impossible to get identical processing power. Increasing concurrency with different processing powers (e core or smt) is usually faster rather than slower, because modern software designed for concurrency can handle concurrency very well.

N/AI had such a case where the main thread choked the thread with the nvidia driver

This looks like a driver issue. If you can clearly pinpoint that the problem originates from the nvidia driver, threads are within processes, and the cpu's physical threads and logical threads are just execution tools for OS threads—the two are not the same concept. It seems difficult to map this to a p/e hybrid core issue.

N/ASo the Powerful Core is what you want for all these threads to coexist on, and luckily it all works out in the end. But it is not pretty.

I don't know much about this, but generally speaking, only some professional high-performance computing tasks require cpu threads to have this capability, aiming for low latency and predictability, such as financial low-latency trading. They will buy DC products and then turn off SMT for tasks. This kind of tasks rarely occurs in personal computing. This is why intel uses a hybrid design in personal cpus, and the relevant foundation should be very reliable after several years of development, such as windows scheduling, the intel hardware thread scheduler, and the performance of e cores themselves, which should have no obvious impact on individuals, but the MT performance will be significantly improved.

N/Abecoming a unified core and then everything will become the same thing

Unified Core will also be divided into p core and e core to meet the design goals of balancing cost, performance, and power. Whether the cpu cores are designed based on the same cpu microarchitecture is not important because when they are logically differentiated into p core and e core, they already have different performance, and their cache configurations and clock targets are also different. Therefore, you cannot get the same processing power just because the cpu microarchitecture is the same. Instead, using different cpu microarchitectures actually maximizes the advantages of hybrid design, because high-performance cores often have a higher area cost and cannot bring more parallelism. If the p and e cores of Unified Core have completely different IPC and can thus be regarded as different cpu architectures, even though they are based on the same Cooper Shark lineage, I would not be surprised.

AusWolfIdle power consumption doesn't raise cooling requirements.

It does, depending on performance on your AC you typically need about a third of power to get rid of a given amount of heat. 20W of unnecessary heat load means about additional 6W needed by AC.

AusWolf60 kWh a year is about £30 in the ever so expensive UK, which is £2.5 a month. Not exactly a buying criterion, imo.

Have you ever seen anybody (not under influence) burning banknotes with no good reason??? Because it is exactly that - a pure waste of money.

BTW I am very unhappy that my GPU idles at 30W just because I have two monitors hooked to it. With one 60 Hz 4K display it idles at 17W and with a gaming monitor added it sucks 30W. One may argue, that it is not idling, but running two monitors and displaying 2D content, but it still does not feel OK.

[crs]so the big question is: Will this be a good upgrade from my 9800X3D?

Of course not

We are in CPU limbo and this Intel part is old news on release. It ain't gonna be notable faster, certainly not more energy efficient, as a gaming chip, and definitely not both at the same time.

next!

Tyler-98-W68Again it's always about money with you, and you mean to tell me that your system spends more time at 100% load than at idle? I find that hard to believe, again your jealousy is showing again, try harder poor.

Its pretty obvious that a gaming rig is going to be under load more than it is idling.

I turn it on, play game, turn it off, honestly. And if its idling for longer than 10-15 mins it'll hibernate.
Idle load is completely irrelevant, but I guess its the last hill Intel fans can stand on without being knocked off constantly ;)

It does not work like when the computer stops idling, it stops drawing idle power. Idle power always adds up on top of what are you doing, it is always wasted energy and money.

I sense a lot of people are looking forward and another lot of people fearing the arrival of Nova Lake CPUs, they should come already. This waiting is pure torture!!!

Vayra86Its pretty obvious that a gaming rig is going to be under load more than it is idling.

I turn it on, play game, turn it off, honestly. And if its idling for longer than 10-15 mins it'll hibernate.
Idle load is completely irrelevant, but I guess its the last hill Intel fans can stand on without being knocked off constantly ;)

You don't work on your computer?

Just took a screenshot from my hwinfo after 17 hours, includes gaming, streaming games to other devices, browsing and some work on excels speadsheets etc.

Average power draw with all of that = 10.3 watts. A ryzen chip would be 3x times to sit there idly..

BoggledBeagleHave you ever seen anybody (not under influence) burning banknotes with no good reason??? Because it is exactly that - a pure waste of money.

Wait what, you don't empty cans of soda down the drain for no reason other than the fact that you can afford to? So weird man, it's part of my daily routine

iameatingjamAnd under what configuration are thesse cpus? Who knows?

Test system configurations are published in literally every single TPU review article. There's a whole page dedicated to it.