Wednesday, March 18th 2020

Sony Reveals PS5 Hardware: RDNA2 Raytracing, 16 GB GDDR6, 6 GB/s SSD, 2304 GPU Cores

Sony in a YouTube stream keynote by PlayStation 5 lead system architect Mark Cerny, detailed the upcoming entertainment system's hardware. There are three key areas where the company has invested heavily in driving forward the platform by "balancing revolutionary and evolutionary" technologies. A key design focus with PlayStation 5 is storage. Cerny elaborated on how past generations of the PlayStation guided game developers' art direction as the low bandwidths and latencies of optical discs and HDDs posed crippling latencies arising out of mechanical seeks, resulting in infinitesimally lower data transfer rates than what the media is capable of in best case scenario (seeking a block of data from its outermost sectors). SSD was the #1 most requested hardware feature by game developers during the development of PS5, and Sony responded with something special.

Each PlayStation 5 ships with a PCI-Express 4.0 x4 SSD with a flash controller that has been designed in-house by Sony. The controller features 12 flash channels, and is capable of at least 5.5 GB/s transfer speeds. When you factor in the exponential gains in access time, Sony expects the SSD to provide a 100x boost in effective storage sub-system performance, resulting in practically no load times.
The secret sauce here is that Sony is using its own protocol instead of NVMe, in supporting 6 data priority tiers versus 2 on NVMe. Each PlayStation 5 ships with an 825 GB SSD, which is expandable using external HDDs over USB, or a selection of third-party M.2 NVMe SSDs certified by Sony. PlayStation 4 games can run directly off your external HDD, but PlayStation 5 games have to be transferred from your HDD to the console's main SSD. Past generations of PlayStation implemented ZLib data compression on Blu-ray and HDD media. PlayStation 5 is implementing Kraken, with hardware-accelerated de-compression via fixed-function hardware built directly into the main SoC.

SoC is where Cerny sounded restrained in what he wanted to disclose. The SoC is a semi-custom chip designed by Sony and AMD, possibly on a 7 nm-class silicon fabrication process. Sony won't specify if it is a monolithic silicon or an MCM, but there are three building-blocks to it: CPU, GPU, and I/O complex. The CPU is based on AMD "Zen 2" x86-64 microarchitecture, and the GPU is based on the company's upcoming RDNA2 graphics architecture.

There are eight "Zen 2" CPU cores, although the company didn't mention if SMT is featured. The maximum CPU clock speed is 3.50 GHz. The GPU is a whole different story from the one on the Xbox Series X Velocity Engine semi-custom chip. Sony decided to go with 36 RDNA2 compute units ticking at up to 2.23 GHz engine clock, compared to 52 compute units running at up to 1.825 GHz on the upcoming Xbox. Sony's GPU ends up with up to 10.3 TFLOPs max compute throughput, compared to Microsoft's 12 TFLOPs.

Sony also shed some "light" on the hardware-accelerated real-time ray-tracing approach AMD is taking with RDNA2. Apparently, each compute unit features a hardware component called "Intersection Engine," with roughly the same function as an RT core on NVIDIA "Turing," which is to calculate the intersection of rays with geometry (such as triangles or polygons) in a scene. This combines with a fairly standardized bounding volume hierarchy (BVH) model to achieve a hybrid of ray-traced elements in an otherwise conventional rasterized 3D scene (pretty much where NVIDIA is right now with RTX). On PlayStation 5, RDNA2's ray-tracing hardware is leveraged for positional audio, global illumination, shadows, reflections, and full ray-tracing.

The third key component of the SoC is the I/O complex. This handles all of the chip's I/O, not just with peripherals and video output, but also storage and memory. There are dedicated I/O co-processors on-silicon designed to reduce the various I/O's processing stack on the CPU cores, and reduce latencies at various stages. There's also a certain amount of SRAM that caches transfers between the various components on the I/O complex. The custom chip leverages AMD SmartShift in power-management.

PlayStation 5 uses 16 GB of GDDR6 memory. Sony did not mention the memory clock, bandwidth, or even the memory bus width. It did drop some hints about memory management. It appears like PlayStation 5 does not partition memory the way Xbox Series X does, and possibly sticks to the hUMA model of the PlayStation 4 (using a common pool of physical memory for system- and video memory).

Lastly, a large chunk of Sony's presentation focused on the next frontier for hardware innovation: positional audio. Sony is investing heavily on positional audio that takes into account the gamer's physical HRTF (head-related transfer function). The company is leveraging the vast amounts of CPU power gained from the upgrade to "Zen 2," to achieve this.
We still don't know what a PlayStation 5 console will look like. Source: Sony Computer Entertainment (YouTube)
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169 Comments on Sony Reveals PS5 Hardware: RDNA2 Raytracing, 16 GB GDDR6, 6 GB/s SSD, 2304 GPU Cores

#76
Valantar
ARF
Well, look at this gameplay comparison between PS4 and Ryzen 5 1600/ GTX 1060/ 16 GB RAM.
There is no difference in the quality. While we can assume that the PC is (much) faster, no?
All that shows is that Rockstar's PC ports are still garbage. There are plenty of comparisons like this showing vast differences.

Rahnak
But they filmed it before that.

Concerning the variable clocks, I don't mind it because a) it's not based on thermals, so everyone gets the same performance regardless and b) it's to keep cooling noise acceptable.
One example he gave for lowering the cpu clock is when it's executing a lot of 256-bit instructions because to maintain the clocks they would need to increase the size of the power supply and fan.
Congratulations on missing the most obvious joke ever, I guess? I mean, what you're saying is right there in what you quoted from me.
Valantar
Even if the presentation was filmed a few days ago
Doesn't make that image any less funny IMO.

Beyond that, that it doesnt thermal throttle is nice, but "it's to keep cooling noise acceptable" is BS - if that was the case, they wouldn't be pushing GPU clocks to 2.25GHz in the first place. Designing for a fixed power target instead of a fixed clock target is perfectly viable, but it is an approach that sacrifices some performance.

I also find it rather telling that they're using SmartShift - while it's a brilliant little piece of tech, it's first and foremost designed for thermally constrained laptops (where the heat dissipation capability of the cooling system is lower than what the hardware can produce if left to run free), so using it here clearly indicates that they expect there to be a need for balancing power within a fixed total budget. In other words, the hardware could do more if it just had better cooling and power delivery.

Vya Domus
He's not wrong, adding more CUs adds more cache however it's not that simple. In a GPU each CU has some cache dedicated to it, if you add more CUs they still have access to the same amount of cache. You'll still encounter the same limitations in memory bound situations.

A GPU with less CUs and higher clocks will perform better in memory bound situations. And it's not uncommon that some parts of a shader contain scalar code which will also run better.

Not that it matters much in this case because PS5's GPU isn't equivalent TFLOP wise with the one in X.
Well, sure, I didn't mean to say there were no advantages, just that they are mostly tiny and more than counteracted by having a wider GPU with more total resources. Not to mention that the 256-bit PS5 is far more likely to be memory-bound than the 320-bit XSX.
Rahnak
Yeah, I'm sure they all have their inside information and knew all about the other months in advance. I'm not sure what you mean by "it forces developers to target a lower level of performance to make sure all PS5 games perform the same in all environments"?
The PS5 has less GPU horsepower, and that power is dependent on avoiding power spikes, so developers will (at least until they become intimately familiar with the system) need to cut down their targets a bit to maintain acceptable performance.

I would think the XOX vs. PS4 Pro is a reasonable analogy (even if the difference between them is bigger than the difference here): the PS4 Pro consistently runs cross-platform games at lower resolutions and detail levels, and often still struggles to match the frame rates of the XOX. Just check out pretty much any of Digital Foundry's excellent comparison videos (Jedi: Fallen Order springs to mind as a stand-out that I watched).
ARF
GPU and CPU is one chip, it's an APU. No RAM, only the GDDR6 chips and large SSD.
... GDDR6 is still RAM ...
ARF
But I agree, Sony needs healthy profit margins because it's not sustainable to sell at a loss all the time. They have other struggling divisions, too.

PS4 was much inferior technologically, so yes, it was quite normal to be cheaper.
Consoles are generally sold at break-even or at a loss, with profits made on game licencing. Any game sold for PS4 or Xbox One comes with a $10 licence fee to the platform owner (though I believe this is slightly lower for cheap indies etc.). That's why console games are more expensive and the hardware is much cheaper when compared to PC.

As for the PS4 being technologically inferior ... to what? It soundly beat the XBone. PS4 Pro vs. Xbox One X is another story entirely, but you didn't say Pro.
Assimilator
Anyone know when Nintendo will complete the trifecta of trash that will hobble games for the next decade?
No reason to expect consoles with with loads of fast memory, fast 8c16t CPUs, native flash storage and very powerful RT-enabled GPUs to hobble anything for quite a while. Jaguar was crap even back in 2012-13, Zen2 is state of the art - and they haven't even cut clocks much! These consoles are far superior to the average gaming PC in pretty much every respect (remember, the average PC has a 4c8t CPU and a GTX 1060) and will allow for massive growth in the quality of games moving forward, including sorely missed improvements in CPU-bound tasks, audio, physics, AI, etc.
Athena
Funny thing is, AMD had 3D audio a LONG time ago... kicker is, hardly NOBODY EVER USED IT!

It was called AMD TrueAudio. From back in 2013!

Then the newer one was called TrueAudio Next.

A new version of TrueAudio, TrueAudio Next, was released with the AMD Radeon 400 series GPUs. TrueAudio Next utilizes the GPU to simulate audio physics.
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to an increased focus on audio on both consoles. And given that the processing is done on AMD hardware it wouldn't be too big of a stretch of the imagination to see it implemented on the PC through GPU accelerated audio either. True positional and spatial audio will be a massive boon to immersion for sure.
lynx29
the variable clock also means we are open to stuttering and screen tearing. one benefit consoles have over PC is that everything is a smooth solid experience, until now anyway. I'm leaning towards not buying any console and just getting a rtx 3080 ti and going balls to the wall PC
Yeah, developers need to work hard to avoid power draw spikes to keep clocks consistent and thus avoid this. Hopefully there's at least some leeway for short-term power spikes in the management system.
lexluthermiester
And which one is going to kick the other in the goolies. PS5 looks like the winner on paper.
Care to expand on that? Not that I don't think it will be good, but it will definitely need to be cheaper (even if Sony has a massive mindshare advantage).
R0H1T
Sony can't sell this at anything below $500 (or just a cent under that) unless they're willing to take massive losses on the BOM. The SSD itself is top of the line & will cost a pretty penny,
Flash isn't cheap, the controller likely isn't either, but it won't be that much more expensive than the competition (which has more flash).
notb
Since it's a "custom SSD", Sony can always replace it with something cheaper. As long as it offers the same interface and performance - no one is going to complain.
And it's still almost a year until these consoles hit the shelves.

The expensive 7nm CPU/GPU is what really pushes the price up - and the impact is and will remain larger in the Xbox.
Flash is flash, it costs what it costs. Prices will come down in time, but slowly. Only way to make the controller cheaper without losing performance is moving to a smaller node, which takes time unless you want to pay a premium (which obviously negates any savings).
k3wld00d1
do you really believe the PS5 gpu running at 2.23ghz core clock. I don't believe it. PS5 actual 9TF. I'm buying an XSX.
Judging by what they said they have pushed clocks pretty much as far as they can go - a 10% drop in power for a 2-3% drop in performance was mentioned - so it'll likely still stay quite high even when power limited. 2,1GHz/9,6TFlops is likely entirely sustainable.
Jism
I wonder why sony choosen for a 825GB model SSD while MS has a 1TB model. Is it perhaps due to overprovisioning and sony wanting to have the SSD a longer life then Microsoft wants?

Many of the tech details are just AMD IP. A Zen+ chip with a RDNA2 feature set GPU. Nothing special.

But it's good for AMD in this as well; its bound to sell millions of consoles with their hardware inside of it. The whole gaming ecosystem will be based upon AMD hardware.
The odd size is due to the SSD controller having 12 flash channels instead of the "normal" 8 (or 4 for lower end drives). With flash chip capacities being the same you'll then end up with strange total capacities.

The whole gaming ecosystem has been based on AMD hardware since the current console generation launched in 2013, but the difference is that it's now high-end hardware rather than low-end CPUs and mid-range GPUs. As such it'll push games further and promote propagation of advanced tech like spatial audio and RTRT. This is rather exciting, even if the underlying tech is for the most part known.


I have to say the clock rates of this chip makes me rather excited for upcoming AMD GPUs, though. If a console can hit 2.23GHz, PC GPUs should be able to exceed that, at least when OC'd. If the upcoming RDNA 2 GPUs run at 2-2.1GHz stock without being terribly inefficient, that's a big improvement for sure.
Posted on Reply
#77
Jism
I'm not worried about RDNA2 or so. Navi was a perfect example of what engineers @ AMD could do in the first place. 2nd generation will only be better.

And i dont think the PS5 would be too weak or so. Some PS3's and PS4's could be overclocked by a simple firmware push. They did it with some games, raising the clocks. Yes it generated more heat thus more noise but i'm sure there's plenty of headroom left in those things.
Posted on Reply
#78
lynx29
I tried playing Uncharted games on PS4, aiming with a controller is just an absolutely horrible experience after you have used mouse and keyboard for so long, another reason I will probably just stick with PC only.
Posted on Reply
#79
ratirt
lynx29
I tried playing Uncharted games on PS4, aiming with a controller is just an absolutely horrible experience after you have used mouse and keyboard for so long, another reason I will probably just stick with PC only.
Agree. I've played one game a shooter. I don't remember what it's called but I played for 5 min and without a mouse and a keyboard it's unplayable for me. If I were to get PS5 or XBOX, i would still need a pc to play First person shooter games. If you could connect a mouse and a keyboard to either PS5 or XBOX I would have been OK.
Posted on Reply
#80
Rahnak
Valantar
Congratulations on missing the most obvious joke ever, I guess? I mean, what you're saying is right there in what you quoted from me.
It seemed more like doubling down than a joke, my bad.

Valantar
Beyond that, that it doesnt thermal throttle is nice, but "it's to keep cooling noise acceptable" is BS - if that was the case, they wouldn't be pushing GPU clocks to 2.25GHz in the first place. Designing for a fixed power target instead of a fixed clock target is perfectly viable, but it is an approach that sacrifices some performance.

I also find it rather telling that they're using SmartShift - while it's a brilliant little piece of tech, it's first and foremost designed for thermally constrained laptops (where the heat dissipation capability of the cooling system is lower than what the hardware can produce if left to run free), so using it here clearly indicates that they expect there to be a need for balancing power within a fixed total budget. In other words, the hardware could do more if it just had better cooling and power delivery.
But the whole point of making power constant and frequency variable was to keep cooling noise down, or in other words, keep the fan from spinning up as much in more demanding games as it did in previous gen, which in his graphic the worst offender was GoW on PS4 Pro. And the reason they went with 2.23 Ghz on GPU is because they came up with a cooling solution that can take it (or so he said, we haven't seen it yet) and from his speech, it also seemed like something he really wanted for the new console.
The XSX is sporting a super beefy cooling solution, but because of the fixed clocks, it'll probably have to ran up and down accordingly (shouldn't be too loud with a 130mm fan though).
Posted on Reply
#81
Valantar
ratirt
Agree. I've played one game a shooter. I don't remember what it's called but I played for 5 min and without a mouse and a keyboard it's unplayable for me. If I were to get PS5 or XBOX, i would still need a pc to play First person shooter games. If you could connect a mouse and a keyboard to either PS5 or XBOX I would have been OK.
You can. Xbox One has kbm suport in any title where the developer has enabled and implemented it. AFAIK most competitive shooters avoid it though, as it would give too much of an advantage to kbm users.
Posted on Reply
#82
Vya Domus
Rahnak
And the reason they went with 2.23 Ghz on GPU is because they came up with a cooling solution that can take it (or so he said, we haven't seen it yet) and from his speech, it also seemed like something he really wanted for the new console.
It's not because of that, there is so many ways you can put a fan and a heatsink. They use a different way of scaling frequency, the 2.23 Ghz for the GPU will likely be available when the CPU is under a specific amount of load. Basically you can either have the CPU reach it's highest clocks or the GPU but not as much both.

Nvidia had something somewhat similar in laptops, it's called platform boost or something like that, it's basically a way of managing clocks by taking into account the total power output from both CPU and GPU and not independently. Because you can have for instance a situation when the CPU isn't doing much but the GPU is pegged, the total power output will be low so it makes sense to give the GPU more power headroom.

All in all PS5's custom chip seems much more advanced.
Posted on Reply
#83
notb
lynx29
I tried playing Uncharted games on PS4, aiming with a controller is just an absolutely horrible experience after you have used mouse and keyboard for so long, another reason I will probably just stick with PC only.
That's why console games offer aiming aids.
Valantar
You can. Xbox One has kbm suport in any title where the developer has enabled and implemented it. AFAIK most competitive shooters avoid it though, as it would give too much of an advantage to kbm users.
Wouldn't it be better to just add "allow mouse and keyboard" setting in session setup?
Posted on Reply
#84
Valantar
notb
That's why console games offer aiming aids.

Wouldn't it be better to just add "allow mouse and keyboard" setting in session setup?
It might be that some have the option, I don't play competitive shooters (and definitely not on console) so I have no idea.
Vya Domus
It's not because of that, there is so many ways you can put a fan and a heatsink. They use a different way of scaling frequency, the 2.23 Ghz for the GPU will likely be available when the CPU is under a specific amount of load. Basically you can either have the CPU reach it's highest clocks or the GPU but not as much both.

Nvidia had something somewhat similar in laptops, it's called platform boost or something like that, it's basically a way of managing clocks by taking into account the total power output from both CPU and GPU and not independently. Because you can have for instance a situation when the CPU isn't doing much but the GPU is pegged, the total power output will be low so it makes sense to give the GPU more power headroom.

All in all PS5's custom chip seems much more advanced.
SmartShift is essentially what you describe just offloaded to a dedicated power controller in the Infinity Fabric which can do on-the-fly power balancing. Dell's upcoming G5 Special Edition has it too, though I bet it'll see more active use there than in the PS5 (as the PS5 is hopefully much less limited than a laptop).

lynx29
I tried playing Uncharted games on PS4, aiming with a controller is just an absolutely horrible experience after you have used mouse and keyboard for so long, another reason I will probably just stick with PC only.
ratirt
Agree. I've played one game a shooter. I don't remember what it's called but I played for 5 min and without a mouse and a keyboard it's unplayable for me. If I were to get PS5 or XBOX, i would still need a pc to play First person shooter games. If you could connect a mouse and a keyboard to either PS5 or XBOX I would have been OK.
I have to disagree - kbm movement in 3rd person games looks so jarring and stupid I avoid it at all costs. Analogue control of movement far outstrips the value of precise aiming in titles like that. For first person shooters my answer would be different, but then Uncharted definitely isn't that. And these games are adventure games, not shooters, so the need for precise aiming is kept reasonably low. After buying the current gen consoles I definitely had a learning period getting used to using a controller for everything on them, but it didn't take that long for it to be perfectly fine (with the added benefit of the ability to use the controller for suitable games on my PC too). Some games are nearly unplayable with one or the other, but the vast majority are okay with both TBH.
Posted on Reply
#85
ratirt
Valantar
I have to disagree - kbm movement in 3rd person games looks so jarring and stupid I avoid it at all costs. Analogue control of movement far outstrips the value of precise aiming in titles like that. For first person shooters my answer would be different, but then Uncharted definitely isn't that. And these games are adventure games, not shooters, so the need for precise aiming is kept reasonably low. After buying the current gen consoles I definitely had a learning period getting used to using a controller for everything on them, but it didn't take that long for it to be perfectly fine (with the added benefit of the ability to use the controller for suitable games on my PC too). Some games are nearly unplayable with one or the other, but the vast majority are okay with both TBH.
You are kidding right? It is not about the movement but how to aim. I wasted my entire damn clip without landing one shot. Basically shoot the opponent all around instead him. Aiming for me is impossible with an analog pad. I'm only talking about shooters. I know you can play Tomb Raider or uncharted. Played these two games myself and it was OK. I understand that other can play but I'm talking about myself. Get a guy to play CS:GO on a whatever play station ( if possible) playing with a pad with no aim aids and you would know what I'm talking about.
Posted on Reply
#86
Valantar
I just finished watching the presentation, and it was ... weird. I mean, let's pass by Cerny's charmingly uncharismatic personality (though those oddly-timed smiles of his were rather unsettling); the setting itself looked like a parody TV skit (cheap backdrop and four silhouetted "audience members") and the presentation was bone dry. Interesting, but definitely not the kind of stuff that drums up user interest and gamer excitement. The 3D audio stuff sounds exciting, I'm cautiously optimistic about the effects of the SSD, but so much of that GPU presentation came off as saying "please please please please don't buy an Xbox just because it's more powerful, our stuff is still good!" Nothing wrong, nothing really misleading, but a lot of conspicuously angled and bold-faced defensively presented arguments that when put together shouted "please ignore our performance deficit!"

I still think this will be a good console, and as last time around I'll be getting both, but the XSX will likele be where I play most console games unless the 3D audio stuff Sony is doing is radically better than MS' competing initiative (it also has dedicated 3D audio hardware, after all).

ratirt
You are kidding right? It is not about the movement but how to aim. I wasted my entire damn clip without landing one shot. Basically shoot the opponent all around instead him. Aiming for me is impossible with an analog pad. I'm only talking about shooters. I know you can play Tomb Raider or uncharted. Played these two games myself and it was OK. I understand that other can play but I'm talking about myself. Get a guy to play CS:GO on a whatever play station ( if possible) playing with a pad with no aim aids and you would know what I'm talking about.
I wasn't talking about combat movement, but general in-game movement - in third-person titles specifically. And the example brought up by the post you responded to was specifically Uncharted, after all. Also, is this when I'm supposed to say "git gud"? Or does that just apply to hardcore PC games? Practice does make perfect, after all, and as I said, after an initial acclimation period I got perfectly adequately used to aiming with a gamepad in the games that required it. But then again, as I said, I don't play competitive shooters, and I definitely don't play them on consoles.
Posted on Reply
#87
ratirt
Valantar
I just finished watching the presentation, and it was ... weird. I mean, let's pass by Cerny's charmingly uncharismatic personality (though those oddly-timed smiles of his were rather unsettling); the setting itself looked like a parody TV skit (cheap backdrop and four silhouetted "audience members") and the presentation was bone dry. Interesting, but definitely not the kind of stuff that drums up user interest and gamer excitement. The 3D audio stuff sounds exciting, I'm cautiously optimistic about the effects of the SSD, but so much of that GPU presentation came off as saying "please please please please don't buy an Xbox just because it's more powerful, our stuff is still good!" Nothing wrong, nothing really misleading, but a lot of conspicuously angled and bold-faced defensively presented arguments that when put together shouted "please ignore our performance deficit!"

I still think this will be a good console, and as last time around I'll be getting both, but the XSX will likele be where I play most console games unless the 3D audio stuff Sony is doing is radically better than MS' competing initiative (it also has dedicated 3D audio hardware, after all).


I wasn't talking about combat movement, but general in-game movement - in third-person titles specifically. And the example brought up by the post you responded to was specifically Uncharted, after all. Also, is this when I'm supposed to say "git gud"? Or does that just apply to hardcore PC games? Practice does make perfect, after all, and as I said, after an initial acclimation period I got perfectly adequately used to aiming with a gamepad in the games that required it. But then again, as I said, I don't play competitive shooters, and I definitely don't play them on consoles.
That's the point. I was talking about first person shooter combat aiming and yet you still had to disagree even though you are not talking about the same thing. git gud? No idea what that means.
Posted on Reply
#88
Rahnak
Valantar
I just finished watching the presentation, and it was ... weird. I mean, let's pass by Cerny's charmingly uncharismatic personality (though those oddly-timed smiles of his were rather unsettling); the setting itself looked like a parody TV skit (cheap backdrop and four silhouetted "audience members") and the presentation was bone dry. Interesting, but definitely not the kind of stuff that drums up user interest and gamer excitement. The 3D audio stuff sounds exciting, I'm cautiously optimistic about the effects of the SSD, but so much of that GPU presentation came off as saying "please please please please don't buy an Xbox just because it's more powerful, our stuff is still good!" Nothing wrong, nothing really misleading, but a lot of conspicuously angled and bold-faced defensively presented arguments that when put together shouted "please ignore our performance deficit!"
I think the presentation needed some real world examples showcasing the new tech and why we should care and be excited about it. Like MS did. I think their event was more succesfull. They showed their SSD tech and then showed a few examples of what advantages it would bring to the players.

Valantar
I still think this will be a good console, and as last time around I'll be getting both, but the XSX will likele be where I play most console games unless the 3D audio stuff Sony is doing is radically better than MS' competing initiative (it also has dedicated 3D audio hardware, after all).
Why not PC for multi-platforms?
Posted on Reply
#89
ppn
loading times are CPu limited most of the time. so you get half loading times. everything else is meaningless, they should have gone 384 bit 3840 core and be set for the next 7 years for the life of the platform. Now they are set for 2 years ahead and then buy again the upgraded version on 5nm that would still be bottlenecked by the 256 bit bus, only the core count may change.. XSX is another thragedy of its own. 6GB system memory.. even if the Game engine loads everything in the GPU memory and doesn't keep a copy of what would be the system memory portion of it, I still don't believe it. nothing guarantees it will work and be optimised that way. show me how it works. 7 years of torture.
Posted on Reply
#90
Vayra86
R0H1T
Well that should settle the debate about the upcoming "big Navi" cause it's gonna be a beast w/better IPC, clocks, more CU, hardware RT & who knows 3d audio?
Yeah, holy shit. The clocks that is. The rest will have to be seen.
Posted on Reply
#91
ARF
Valantar
I just finished watching the presentation, and it was ... weird. I mean, let's pass by Cerny's charmingly uncharismatic personality (though those oddly-timed smiles of his were rather unsettling); the setting itself looked like a parody TV skit (cheap backdrop and four silhouetted "audience members") and the presentation was bone dry. Interesting, but definitely not the kind of stuff that drums up user interest and gamer excitement. The 3D audio stuff sounds exciting, I'm cautiously optimistic about the effects of the SSD, but so much of that GPU presentation came off as saying "please please please please don't buy an Xbox just because it's more powerful, our stuff is still good!" Nothing wrong, nothing really misleading, but a lot of conspicuously angled and bold-faced defensively presented arguments that when put together shouted "please ignore our performance deficit!"

I still think this will be a good console, and as last time around I'll be getting both, but the XSX will likele be where I play most console games unless the 3D audio stuff Sony is doing is radically better than MS' competing initiative (it also has dedicated 3D audio hardware, after all).
If they are not excited, we should be even less. And to be honest, I do understand them. They are stuck with hardware which probably has never been their first choice to begin with, there is absolutely nothing ground-breaking in AMD's x86-64 implementation, just a fix to the mediocre Jaguar-derivative that was even worse.

ppn
loading times are CPu limited most of the time. so you get half loading times. everything else is meaningless, they should have gone 384 bit 3840 core and be set for the next 7 years for the life of the platform. Now they are set for 2 years ahead and then buy again the upgraded version on 5nm that would still be bottlenecked by the 256 bit bus, only the core count may change.. XSX is another thragedy of its own. 6GB system memory.. even if the Game engine loads everything in the GPU memory and doesn't keep a copy of what would be the system memory portion of it, I still don't believe it. nothing guarantees it will work and be optimised that way. show me how it works. 7 years of torture.
Yup, at least somewhat better than Jaguar.
All will depend on the available contents upon launch. They have to push the hardware to its limits and offer the most exciting visual experience ever.
If not.... 7 years of not expected sales will follow.
Posted on Reply
#92
Parn
Haven't touched a console since PS2 time. But my boy has been asking for a console for quite some time now. So if we're going to get him one for next Christmas, I'd go for PS5 simply because I love some of the Sony exclusives and would like to take advantage of the console when he isn't playing.
Posted on Reply
#93
dirtyferret
Hey everyone, I'm building a Ryzen 3700x & Nvidia rtx 2080 in an itx case so I can max out these console games. Do you think my sfx 200w power supply is good enough or should I upgrade to a 225w version? I mean it's not even 80 plus but I don't think that cpu and gpu will pull more then 175w. I also plan to use passive heatsinks on both the cpu and gpu but it's all good as my itx case comes with one case fan.
Posted on Reply
#94
ppn
dirtyferret
Hey everyone, I'm building a Ryzen 3700x & Nvidia rtx 2080 in an itx case so I can max out these console games. Do you think my sfx 200w power supply is good enough or should I upgrade to a 225w version? I mean it's not even 80 plus but I don't think that cpu and gpu will pull more then 175w. I also plan to use passive heatsinks on both the cpu and gpu but it's all good as my itx case comes with one case fan.
Realistically by the time PS5 is out, you have to compare it to Ryzen 4700 @ 3,5 and the rdna2 successor of RX 5700 2304 @ 2.2 undervolted as much as possible. And then overprovision the PSU for oDb operation. Not impossible. Considering the prices of 3700X and 5700X will be much lower then.
Posted on Reply
#95
fynxer
XBOX FTW, can hold 12TOPS continuously while PS5 boosts up to 10.3 which means you most of the time will get under well under 10TOPS from PS5

XBOX will have aprox 20-25% faster GFX

ALSO XBOX can hold 3.8GHz continuously while PS5 boosts up to 3.5 GHz which means you get maybe 3.2GHz in average from PS5

XBOX will have aprox 15-20% faster CPU

Keep in mind what HIDDEN POWER XBOX holds
if they decide to unlock boost, then you would see up to a total of 40% faster GFX and 40% faster CPU than PS5

PS5 saved money on silicon and cooling solution, sure maybe it will be a little cheaper but who cares about 50 or 100 bucks difference when you going to have that console for years to come.

[B]This is EZZZZZ, i am going with XBOX[/B]
Posted on Reply
#96
Valantar
ratirt
That's the point. I was talking about first person shooter combat aiming and yet you still had to disagree even though you are not talking about the same thing. git gud? No idea what that means.
No, you were agreeing with someone talking about a third-person action-adventure game, which it should be rather obvious that the bulk of my response was directed at. If you actually read what I wrote it ought to also be rather obvious that I wasn't so much contradicting you than saying a wholesale dismissal of controllers based on
ratirt
play[ing] one game a shooter [...] for 5 min
is rather silly. That's rather brash, no? My entire point was that the kbm vs. controller debate depends on both the game in question as well as the skills, experiences and preferences of the player. If that was your entryway into controller-based gaming you essentially gave yourself a worst-case scenario: an FPS game for someone with little/no controller aiming experience. On the other hand there are quite a few professional FPS gamers on consoles, and they don't generally use kbm. So again, it comes down to a lot of personal preference even if there are absolutely use cases where one is intrinsically superior to the other - FPS and other games requiring quick, pin-point precise movement for mice, and racing games, third-person games, and anything else requiring nuanced controls but not immediacy for controllers.

As for "git gud", that's what PCMR douche-bros tell people when they complain something is too difficult or otherwise ought to be tweaked to be more accessible, i.e. telling them that the fault lies not in the game but their lack of skill - it was meant as a joke based on your brash dismissal of controllers seeming to stem from rather little experience with them, and in a worst-case scenario at that.

Rahnak
I think the presentation needed some real world examples showcasing the new tech and why we should care and be excited about it. Like MS did. I think their event was more succesfull. They showed their SSD tech and then showed a few examples of what advantages it would bring to the players.


Why not PC for multi-platforms?
I obviously have that too, but I work researching games, so having access to all relevant current platforms is crucial to being able to do my work properly (including understanding the ecosystems these games exist within).

I agree that real-world examples would be helpful, though a lot of the stuff they're talking about is hard to demonstrate - the 3D audio won't work as a demo since it needs the dedicated hardware and tuning to work, and the SSD... well, they showed that Spiderman demo a long time back, which I guess demonstrates it, but also feels kind of unnecessary. I doubt there'll be much perceptible difference between "instantaneous" fast travel/load times/etc on a PS5 and the couple of seconds the same would take on an XSX with half the SSD speed.
ARF
If they are not excited, we should be even less. And to be honest, I do understand them. They are stuck with hardware which probably has never been their first choice to begin with, there is absolutely nothing ground-breaking in AMD's x86-64 implementation, just a fix to the mediocre Jaguar-derivative that was even worse.

Yup, at least somewhat better than Jaguar.
All will depend on the available contents upon launch. They have to push the hardware to its limits and offer the most exciting visual experience ever.
If not.... 7 years of not expected sales will follow.
Uh, what? Zen has no relation to Jaguar beyond being an X86 CPU. As for "nothing ground-breaking in AMD's x86-64 implementation", you know AMD literally invented X86-64, right? There's nothing ground-breaking in any other implementations of it either, but it works pretty damn well. As for the hardware not being their first choice - why not? Sure, Nvidia currently has faster GPUs, but they don't make CPUs (unless you want low-power, low-performance ARM), and making a console with two different hardware vendors would be momentously more complicated at today's development complexity levels in terms of fine-tuning the OS, firmware, APIs and ultimately software.

As for being excited, the exciting thing here is the baseline spec for multi-platform games (which includes >99% of AAA games) moving from 8 dog-slow single-thread ~2GHz CPU cores to 8 fast dual-threaded CPU cores at 170-180% frequency, with GPU performance jumping 2-5x (depending on whether you measure from base consoles or Pro/X) allowing for massively improved visual fidelity for the next decade of game development. Adding RT and other modern, advanced rendering techniques will also allow for radically more advanced games in the coming years. You're of course right that games will make these platforms, but I don't see that as an issue - current consoles are already struggling heavily with current titles (try playing Jedi: Fallen Order on a base PS4 or XB1 - it's terrible), so giving developers more to play with will inevitably result in great-looking and -feeling titles. There's a lot that can be done with these consoles that can't possibly be done with current ones, so the future of cross-platform game development is suddenly looking dramatically better than it has done for the past year or more.
Posted on Reply
#97
lexluthermiester
Valantar
Care to expand on that? Not that I don't think it will be good, but it will definitely need to be cheaper (even if Sony has a massive mindshare advantage).
I'm not considering price as that is unknown ATM. Otherwise, my statement is self-explanatory.
Posted on Reply
#98
ratirt
Valantar
No, you were agreeing with someone talking about a third-person action-adventure game, which it should be rather obvious that the bulk of my response was directed at. If you actually read what I wrote it ought to also be rather obvious that I wasn't so much contradicting you than saying a wholesale dismissal of controllers based on
About aiming which is horrible with a PS controller for me. So yes I know what i have agreed but still what I said stands. Aiming with an analog PS controller is horrible even if it is Uncharted. Switching on aiming aids is no fun either.
Valantar
is rather silly. That's rather brash, no? My entire point was that the kbm vs. controller debate depends on both the game in question as well as the skills, experiences and preferences of the player. If that was your entryway into controller-based gaming you essentially gave yourself a worst-case scenario: an FPS game for someone with little/no controller aiming experience. On the other hand there are quite a few professional FPS gamers on consoles, and they don't generally use kbm. So again, it comes down to a lot of personal preference even if there are absolutely use cases where one is intrinsically superior to the other - FPS and other games requiring quick, pin-point precise movement for mice, and racing games, third-person games, and anything else requiring nuanced controls but not immediacy for controllers.
I'm glad you have your point but you don't get mine. I couldn't play the game because aiming for me with a PS controller was not any way fun nor accurate. Glad you have your points but I'd rather talk about mine if you don't mind? That's why I have joined the conversation. There are a lot of games on a PC and you don't use analog pad so what's your point?
I just need to use analog because that's the way it is? Well, as a matter of fact I can choose what I want and will stay with a PC with FPS games. I didn't bash anyone I said i prefer KBM instead controller because aiming for me is horrible and you can't compare analog to KBM because accuracy and response is way better on KBM. Now you talk about preference but when I mentioned KBM for me you got somehow offended?
Valantar
As for "git gud", that's what PCMR douche-bros tell people when they complain something is too difficult or otherwise ought to be tweaked to be more accessible, i.e. telling them that the fault lies not in the game but their lack of skill - it was meant as a joke based on your brash dismissal of controllers seeming to stem from rather little experience with them, and in a worst-case scenario at that.
I didn't know what "git gud" means and who is using it and why thanks for clarification. Anyway it is not fair to call somebody douche-bro when that person is not agreeing with you.
It's not about difficulty but a matter of preference. If you find PS analog controller better for aiming then fine. I don't. Mouse and keyboard please since for me it's way more accurate.
Posted on Reply
#99
dirtyferret
fynxer
XBOX FTW, can hold 12TOPS continuously while PS5 boosts up to 10.3 which means you most of the time will get under well under 10TOPS from PS5

XBOX will have aprox 20-25% faster GFX

ALSO XBOX can hold 3.8GHz continuously while PS5 boosts up to 3.5 GHz which means you get maybe 3.2GHz in average from PS5

XBOX will have aprox 15-20% faster CPU

Keep in mind what HIDDEN POWER XBOX holds
if they decide to unlock boost, then you would see up to a total of 40% faster GFX and 40% faster CPU than PS5

PS5 saved money on silicon and cooling solution, sure maybe it will be a little cheaper but who cares about 50 or 100 bucks difference when you going to have that console for years to come.

[B]This is EZZZZZ, i am going with XBOX[/B]
it appears you have something wrong with your keyboard, it makes words in bold randomly
Posted on Reply
#100
notb
ratirt
About aiming which is horrible with a PS controller for me. So yes I know what i have agreed but still what I said stands. Aiming with an analog PS controller is horrible even if it is Uncharted. Switching on aiming aids is no fun either.
That depends what kind of fun you're after. Most console gamers are perfectly fine with aids - casual gaming is about the story/experience/relax rather than agility training and stress. :P

In fact, CS:GO afair wasn't a big hit on PS3 and wasn't ported to PS4. Yet, it remains one of most popular games on PCs.
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