Saturday, January 7th 2023

AMD Ryzen 7040 Series "Phoenix Point" Mobile Processor I/O Detailed: Lacks PCIe Gen 5

by
btarunr
 Discuss (83 Comments)
The online datasheets of some of the first AMD Ryzen 7040 series "Phoenix Point" mobile processors went live, detailing the processor's I/O feature-set. We learn that AMD has decided to give PCI-Express Gen 5 a skip with this silicon, at least in its mobile avatar. The Ryzen 7040 SoC puts out a total of 20 PCI-Express Gen 4 lanes, all of which are "usable" (i.e. don't count 4 lanes toward chipset-bus). This would mean that the silicon has a full PCI-Express 4.0 x16 interface for discrete graphics, and a PCI-Express 4.0 x4 link for a CPU-attached M.2 NVMe slot; unlike the "Raphael" desktop MCM and the "Dragon Range" mobile MCM, whose client I/O dies put out a total of 28 Gen 5 lanes (24 usable, with x16 PEG + two x4 toward CPU-attached M.2 slots).

Another interesting aspect about "Phoenix Point" is its memory controllers. The SoC features a dual-channel (four sub-channel) DDR5 memory interface, besides support for LPDDR5 and LPDDR5x. DDR5-5600 and LPDDR5-7600 are the native speeds supported. What's really interesting is the maximum amount of memory supported, which stands at 256 GB—double that of "Raphael" and "Dragon Range," which top out at 128 GB. This bodes well for the eventual Socket AM5 APUs AMD will design based on the "Phoenix Point" silicon. Older Ryzen 5000G "Cezanne" desktop APUs are known for superior memory overclocking capabilities to 5000X "Vermeer," with the monolithic nature of the silicon favoring latencies. Something similar could be expected from "Phoenix Point."
The iGPU of the Ryzen 7040 series in its top avatar will have the branding "Radeon 780M," an upgrade from the "Radeon 680M" of the top iGPU option available with the "Rembrandt" silicon and its RDNA2-based iGPU. The new 780M is based on the latest RDNA3 graphics architecture, and packs 12 compute units (768 stream processors), with the same dual-instruction issue rate capabilities as the desktop Radeon RX 7900 series GPUs; and matrix-math accelerators (these are besides the dedicated XDNA AI accelerator present on the "Phoenix Point" silicon). The iGPU has engine clocks as high as 2.90 GHz.

The iGPU of "Phoenix Point" is confirmed to feature AMD's latest Radiance Display Engine, with support for DisplayPort 2.1 UHBR10 and HDMI 2.1, with native support for 8K 60 Hz displays with a single cable. It also features the latest VCN media engine, with hardware-accelerated AV1 encoding up to 4K @ 240 Hz 10 bpc, and 4320p @ 175 Hz 8 bpc H.265; and hardware-accelerated decoding of nearly all standard resolutions/bit-depth/framerates of MPEG2, VC1, VP9, H.264, H.265, and AV1.
Built on the 4 nm EUV foundry node at TSMC, the "Phoenix Point" monolithic silicon has a die-area of 178 mm², and a transistor-count of 25 billion. Besides the iGPU, it features a single 8-core "Zen 4" CCX. Each of the 8 CPU cores has 1 MB of dedicated L2 cache, and share 32 MB of L3 cache.Many Thanks to TumbleGeorge for the tip!
Source: AMD

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83 Comments on AMD Ryzen 7040 Series "Phoenix Point" Mobile Processor I/O Detailed: Lacks PCIe Gen 5

#26
lexluthermiester
prtskgIn my area laptops with latest AMD apus always come with discrete GPUs for some reason.
How is that a bad thing?
Posted on Reply
#27
trsttte
lexluthermiesterHow is that a bad thing?
Some of us don't want them. I don't work with anything requiring gpu compute. I do use lots of threads to compile stuff. Unfortunately that often means big workstation with a quadro in there just to fill the space and justify the higher price.

As for the consumer side of things, people should have understood by now that laptops with a power chugging high power discrete gpu make very little sense. When it's clear you're gonna be tied to the wall either way, egpus should have become hugely more popular than they have.
Posted on Reply
#28
Denver
Space LynxI honestly want this to be my next work laptop APU... something light and portable I can travel with, but still do light indie gaming or very old gaming on. This seems like what I am looking for.

Hope I can get something decent for like $599. Doubt I get that lucky, but hey I can dream.
I like the optimism about the price. I at least hope that AMD improves availability, even today it's hard to find a laptop with 6800u here... Intel is still much more efficient with regards to availability and the speed at which new designs hit stores.
Posted on Reply
#29
john_
lexluthermiesterHow is that a bad thing?
Higher price, especially when the GPU is a mid range or stronger, higher weight, higher power consumption. People needing a gaming laptop would not use the integrated one and people needing just a strong integrated one to play some games occasionally, wouldn't want to pay for a discrete one. There are reasons why people drool when they see a powerful APU, when in fact that APU is usually mid range as CPU and low end as GPU.
Posted on Reply
#30
lexluthermiester
trsttteSome of us don't want them. I don't work with anything requiring gpu compute.
You are an exception rather than the rule. Most people would prefer a discreet GPU over an IGP.
john_Higher price, especially when the GPU is a mid range or stronger, higher weight, higher power consumption.
Those people are not going to be looking at those models then anyway.
Posted on Reply
#31
TumbleGeorge
Support of 256GB RAM is ideal for some tasks. In this moment on market isn't offered laptop memory modules with enough capacity. But I expect that there will be such proposals already this year.
Posted on Reply
#32
Chrispy_
WirkoSee the last slide above, Phoenix Point HS will be 35-45W. U hasn't been announced yet, could even be a smaller chip. Dragon Range HX is above that, at 45-75+W.
Ah, okay - so HS and U are sharing silicon just like with Rembrandt.
The problem isn't the silicon, it's laptop manufacturers failing to make HS laptops without dGPUs.
35-45W is ample power budget to let an APU stretch its legs in a relatively slim, 14" laptop, yet any time an HS laptop arrives, it has a sodding GTX 3050 or 6600S in it...
Posted on Reply
#33
john_
lexluthermiesterThose people are not going to be looking at those models then anyway.
And that's the problem. Right there. When the manufacturer adds a discrete GPU in a laptop that could be much cheaper, probably lighter and more efficient in battery mode, it directs it to a different audience. So those who dream of a light, power efficient laptop with a strong iGPU, find themselves without any real options in the market. It's like wanting to buy a Smart to use it in the city and the only models available come with a powerful engine that leads to much higher price and a non removal trailer attached to the car.
Posted on Reply
#35
lexluthermiester
TumbleGeorgeSupport of 256GB RAM is ideal for some tasks.
For a laptop? Seriously?
john_And that's the problem. Right there. When the manufacturer adds a discrete GPU in a laptop that could be much cheaper, probably lighter and more efficient in battery mode, it directs it to a different audience.
And that's a good thing, not a problem. People who go looking for laptop's with DGPUs are not as concerned with battery life or an extra few ounces of weight. They care about having the extra performance.
john_So those who dream of a light, power efficient laptop with a strong iGPU, find themselves without any real options in the market.
Nonsense! There are plenty of those options! Why are you making seem like system makers only build laptops with DGPUs? That's a silly notion. MOST laptops do NOT have DGPUs and that's a fact.
Posted on Reply
#36
Mawkzin
Space LynxHope I can get something decent for like $599. Doubt I get that lucky, but hey I can dream.
For that money will you have a 7020 Mendocino, but don't worry it's a 7000 series.
Posted on Reply
#37
john_
lexluthermiesterAnd that's a good thing, not a problem. People who go looking for laptop's with DGPUs are not as concerned with battery life or and extra few ounces of weight. They care about having the extra performance.

Nonsense! There are plenty of those options! Why are you making seem like system makers only build laptops with DGPUs? That's a silly notion. MOST laptops do NOT have DGPUs and that's a fact.
Oh, my. There is your perspective and then there is the wrong/silly perspective.

Obviously someone looking for a laptop with a discrete GPU cares more about the performance and efficiency, well mostly performance of that discrete GPU, than 100 extra grams or less battery life. But again, that's a different audience. And it's NOT the only audience. So it's NOT a good thing because you say so, it's NOT a good thing because you probably want a discrete GPU in YOUR laptop. It's just what YOU prefer, not what I prefer, or what others prefer to see in a laptop. I would love to see for example a 6600U in 600 euros laptops without a discrete GPU, than pay 900 euros and get a 6600H and an RTX 3050 for example. I don't need the extra frequency of the 6600H over 6600U, I definitely don't need any kind of discrete GPU in my laptop. So, why should I pay for something that is a secondary need at best and I am definitely not going to use?

It's not nonsense. There are plenty of options with 5000 series, I bought one at 500 euros, but not much with 6000 series models. And when they drive 6000 APU series to models with discrete GPUs, that means there are probably none of those options in the market. At least not at reasonable prices.

Looking at the Greek market and all of it's limits, there are only 5 laptops with 6600U starting at 1200 euros(kind of premium models). 6600H start at 940 euros with an RTX 3050. Well, that model could be selling at 700 euros without that 3050. At 700 euros I would consider it. At 940 no. I don't need a 3050.
5600U laptops start at 630 euros(wow they gone up!).
Posted on Reply
#38
lexluthermiester
john_Oh, my. There is your perspective and then there is the wrong/silly perspective.
My perspective is that of a user, a system administrator and a retailer. I see the big picture from several angles.
john_6600H start at 940 euros with an RTX 3050. Well, that model could be selling at 700 euros without that 3050. At 700 euros I would consider it. At 940 no. I don't need a 3050.
5600U laptops start at 630 euros(wow they gone up!).
So find a system that doesn't have a 3050. It's not like they don't exist.
Posted on Reply
#39
TumbleGeorge
john_It's just what YOU prefer
Identifying the needs and wants of other ppl only as a reflection of one's own. Must some kind of illness.

PS. Ah, retailer. Marketing to sell more expensive products. :)
Posted on Reply
#40
lexluthermiester
TumbleGeorgePS. Ah, retailer. Marketing to sell more expensive products. :)
No, I carry and order that which fits the needs of my clientele. My shop is not run like a BestBuy or other such high-pressure sales store.
Posted on Reply
#41
Tek-Check
WirkoDo Ryzen 5000 and 6000 notebooks even have a chipset?
No. It's has not been needed too much, until Dragon Range. All lanes are directly from CPU. Here are Cezanne and Rembrandt diagrams.



Posted on Reply
#42
john_
lexluthermiesterMy perspective is that of a user, a system administrator and a retailer. I see the big picture from several angles.


So find a system that doesn't have a 3050. It's not like they don't exist.
No. It's just your one angle. Either as a user, system administrator or retailer, you see a discrete GPU as the logical choice. That's one angle and it's fine. It's not a wrong opinion. It's just a different one based one what YOU consider important in a laptop. But not everyone needs or wants a discrete GPU in their laptop. Either because they have a desktop for all the gaming they want, or they simply don't game anyway.
You can see things from different angles, when you are willing to be in somebody else's shoes. Or you can just reply with a laughing smile and discard any different opinions.

They don't exist, or they are somewhat more expensive than necessary. I am talking about with a 6000 series models. There are plenty with 5000 series as I already told in my previous post.

Anyway, just turned to Monday here and I have to wake up early. So any reply will be much delayed.
TumbleGeorgeIdentifying the needs and wants of other ppl only as a reflection of one's own. Must some kind of illness.
Nope. Didn't done that.
Posted on Reply
#43
Tek-Check
btarunrThis would mean that the silicon has a full PCI-Express 4.0 x16 interface for discrete graphics, and a PCI-Express 4.0 x4 link for a CPU-attached M.2 NVMe slot
x16 slot is unlikely in any laptop design, as Phoenix still uses FP7 motherboards, which have x8 PHY for GFX. So, the silicon probably follows the earlier solution from FP6 and dedicates x8 PHY for mGPU. This makes sense, as other 12 lanes are needed for other devices.

They also say on AMD's website that FP7r2 and FP8 are going to be used, but no one has informed the public about the structure of those platforms (probably minor changes in power handling, etc.). I am actually quite disappointed that AMD did not share more detailes about Phoenix platform, such as RDNA3 performance.

Below is how FP7 should work with Phoenix APUs. All information is taken from official spec of 7040 APUs on their website.
There are only 20 lanes to play with, so x16 cannot be dedicated to mGPU.
x8 - mGPU
x4 - NVMe OS
x4 - GPP (second NVMe on laptops wihtout USB4 or PCIe data transport for laptops with USB4 ports)
x4 (x1/x2 configurable) - WiFi module, GbE, etc.

Posted on Reply
#44
lexluthermiester
john_you see a discrete GPU as the logical choice.
For some use cases, not all. For other use cases an IGP is the preferred choice. It depends on what someone wants. My earlier point was that the complains about systems having a DGPU are silly. ALL large laptop makers have more IGP based models than models with a DGPU. Only small makers(Razer, etc) have more DGPU models. There is no shortage of IGP based laptops.
Posted on Reply
#45
Tek-Check
GarrusPeople just wanted Ryzen 6800H laptops without discrete GPUs.
No. 6800U with 28W is for that purpose in ultralight and portable laptops. "People just wanted" is too vague.
- there are mini-PC with 6800H and without mGPU, if you wish
- 6800H APU can come with mGPU. I have one at home from Asus.
- you can also configure some laptops, such as Lenovo, and choose 6800H without mGPU. So, there is a choice for consumers.
Posted on Reply
#46
Wirko
Tek-CheckNo. It's has not been needed too much, until Dragon Range. All lanes are directly from CPU. Here are Cezanne and Rembrandt diagrams.
Thanks. Actually, even Dragon Range could operate without a chipset - all that's missing are LAN/WLAN interfaces but these can be implemented with another chip. That's pretty certain given that even AM4 desktop APUs have that ability.
www.techpowerup.com/295394/amd-zen-4-socket-am5-explained-pcie-lanes-chipsets-connectivity
Posted on Reply
#47
Tek-Check
Chrispy_The 6800U was a great performer but the typical 25W TDP throttled away a lot of its potential. The same silicon given a 45W TDP as the 6800H was never spotted outside of chungus gaming laptops with stupid RGBLED and childish robot slashes/angles/vajazzle adorning their cheap plastic shells.
This is not true. I have 6800H in Asus Vivobook Pro. Brilliant laptops, not designed for gaming.
Chrispy_Why is it so hard for AMD to do that? The whole point of an APU is that they have the best IGP, so that you can get away without needing a hungry dGPU. They've utterly failed to capitalise on that USP.
Several vendors allow you to configure your laptop, for example Lenovo. You can choose AMD's CPU and choose not to have descrete GPU. It's up to vendors to allow those options to their consumers. AMD has nothing to do with it.
Chrispy_these APUs, 'codename Phoenix' are going to be the U-series, 7800U etc. They will be cut-down silicon with a maximum of 8 cores and low cTDPs of likely 15~28W again.
Look at the TPU database and AMD's website and you will find 7940HS models with 35W. This is exactly what they showed at CES. Phoenix - HS.
Chrispy_H-series, 'codename Dragon Range' which will be 35W+ 16-core APUs
There is no "H" series anymore. There are HS for Phoenix and HX for Dragon Range, which is 45W+ and four SKUs, the same core config as desktop parts.
Posted on Reply
#48
SL2
john_5600U laptops start at 630 euros(wow they gone up!).
More like €500 in germany at least.
lexluthermiesterMost people would prefer a discreet GPU over an IGP.
I doubt that for laptops. For every laptop gamer there's like what, three people or more who just wants something for Office work, studying, etc.
Posted on Reply
#49
Tek-Check
WirkoThanks. Actually, even Dragon Range could operate without a chipset - all that's missing are LAN/WLAN interfaces but these can be implemented with another chip. That's pretty certain given that even AM4 desktop APUs have that ability.
www.techpowerup.com/295394/amd-zen-4-socket-am5-explained-pcie-lanes-chipsets-connectivity
You can operate everything from CPU, just like on servers. Chipset chip is not necessary in laptops if you have enough lanes from CPU, and it consumes additional power (3-4W). Here is Dragon Range config.
Posted on Reply
#50
lexluthermiester
MatsI doubt that for laptops.
You can doubt it all you wish. Market trends say otherwise.
MatsFor every laptop gamer there's like what, three people or more who just wants something for Office work, studying, etc.
There is some of that. But most people lately want a laptop as a primary computing device and they what the option to do gaming. A solid 50% of the people walking into my shop looking for a laptop want one with a DGPU.
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