Thursday, September 12th 2019

AMD Updates Roadmaps to Lock RDNA2 and Zen 3 onto 7nm+, with 2020 Launch Window

AMD updated its technology roadmaps to reflect a 2020 launch window for its upcoming CPU and graphics architectures, "Zen 3" and RDNA2. The two will be based on 7 nm+ , which is AMD-speak for the 7 nanometer EUV silicon fabrication process at TSMC, that promises a significant 20 percent increase in transistor-densities, giving AMD high transistor budgets and more clock-speed headroom. The roadmap slides however hint that unlike the "Zen 2" and RDNA simultaneous launch on 7th July 2019, the next-generation launches may not be simultaneous.

The slide for CPU microarchitecture states that the design phase of "Zen 3" is complete, and that the microarchitecture team has already moved on to develop "Zen 4." This means AMD is now developing products that implement "Zen 3." On the other hand, RDNA2 is still in design phase. The crude x-axis on both slides that denotes year of expected shipping, too appears to suggest that "Zen 3" based products will precede RDNA2 based ones. "Zen 3" will be AMD's first response to Intel's "Comet Lake-S" or even "Ice Lake-S," if the latter comes to fruition before Computex 2020. In the run up to RDNA2, AMD will scale up RDNA a notch larger with the "Navi 12" silicon to compete with graphics cards based on NVIDIA's "TU104" silicon. "Zen 2" will receive product stack additions in the form of a new 16-core Ryzen 9-series chip later this month, and the 3rd generation Ryzen Threadripper family.
Source: Guru3D
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94 Comments on AMD Updates Roadmaps to Lock RDNA2 and Zen 3 onto 7nm+, with 2020 Launch Window

#26
xkm1948
RDNA2 in 2020, hmm, so there may not be a big navi after all.

Ever since Raja left I felt the RTG driver team has been slowly falling apart.
Posted on Reply
#27
bug
xkm1948, post: 4115315, member: 50521"
RDNA2 in 2020, hmm, so there may not be a big navi after all.

Ever since Raja left I felt the RTG driver team has been slowly falling apart.
I've also predicted no big Navi, based on the scaling shown between 5700 and 5700XT.
Still, having something faster out next year is what matters. Whether it's big Navi or something RDNA2 is not so important. Considering how much ground AMD's GPU team has to cover, iterating fast may be the better option after all.

Also, it's not like Raja scored major hits before he left ;)
Posted on Reply
#28
yakk
Besides possibly Apple, AMD will have the most 7nm design experience as the prices matures. In many ways probably more than Apple as they use 7nm for both CPU & GPU, exciting times ahead!
Posted on Reply
#29
Aquinus
Resident Wat-man
Th3pwn3r, post: 4115276, member: 74037"
Honestly it's probably something he's doing then. Seems super unlikely. Admittedly the only GPU I have had fail on me were from Nvidia ages ago.
You mean you're going to ignore real issues that cropped up early with founder edition 2080 Tis? I've had a 7900 GT fail on me back in the day.
Posted on Reply
#30
xkm1948
bug, post: 4115318, member: 157434"
I've also predicted no big Navi, based on the scaling shown between 5700 and 5700XT.
Still, having something faster out next year is what matters. Whether it's big Navi or something RDNA2 is not so important. Considering how much ground AMD's GPU team has to cover, iterating fast may be the better option after all.

Also, it's not like Raja scored major hits before he left ;)
At least during Raja and before him the driver team was not pumping out garbage drivers in terms of stability.

That old FuryX I gave away is apparently having loads of stability issues with EVERY driver after 19.5.2, mostly with twitch streaming overlay corruption and stuff.
Posted on Reply
#31
bug
xkm1948, post: 4115329, member: 50521"
At least during Raja and before him the driver team was not pumping out garbage drivers in terms of stability.

That old FuryX I gave away is apparently having loads of stability issues with EVERY driver after 19.5.2, mostly with twitch streaming overlay corruption and stuff.
It's one of their traditions. Back in ATI Rage days, there was this guy that wrote a driver better than the official one, on his own, with no access to documentation. (And yes, I know video cards were much simpler back then.)
Posted on Reply
#32
xkm1948
bug, post: 4115334, member: 157434"
It's one of their traditions. Back in ATI Rage days, there was this guy that wrote a driver better than the official one, on his own, with no access to documentation. (And yes, I know video cards were much simpler back then.)
I was so happy installing those Omega drivers on my good old R9700. Those were the days :D
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#33
yakk
What does Raja have to do with drivers?! AMD's best driver and 3D graphics developer tools lead developer dates back to the ATI days, when he left AMD after the merge their drivers imploded. I believe when he came back was when AMD started their big yearly releases, much quicker updates and hugely better developer relations through Sony & Microsoft.

Makes me wonder if he left again or the Navi launch was way too rushed.
Posted on Reply
#34
bug
xkm1948, post: 4115336, member: 50521"
I was so happy installing those Omega drivers on my good old R9700. Those were the days :D
I don't think it was Omega, this was before his time. Then again, I can't find references anymore, maybe it was Omega who did it.

Also the R9700 was a sweet card. Even more so for the R9500 that unlocked into R9700 :D Unfortunately, that was also the last time ATI/AMD offered anything to catch my attention. They had some good cards wit their HD2000/3000 series, but, unfortunately for them, that was a time when I didn't feel the need to upgrade.
Posted on Reply
#35
efikkan
bug, post: 4115318, member: 157434"
I've also predicted no big Navi, based on the scaling shown between 5700 and 5700XT.
Still, having something faster out next year is what matters. Whether it's big Navi or something RDNA2 is not so important. Considering how much ground AMD's GPU team has to cover, iterating fast may be the better option after all.
I haven't seen any solid information whether the next iteration will be a refined Navi or their next generation. But if it turns out to be Navi 2x, as you mentioned, the scaling from 5700 to 5700 XT shows how little room there is, so a ~50% larger chip would have to be clocked lower than 5700 to retain decent efficiency. Whatever AMD launches in the Navi family, it will retain the same scaling characteristics. So for this reason, it matters if AMD launches another iteration of Navi or something which (hopefully) is a more efficient architecture. If AMD's lineup for 2020 consists of refreshed and possibly larger Navis, then it's not going to be good enough, which is why I have several times before stated that a second Navi in 2020 is just too late to the party.

Lastly, just to put it out there, a second iteration of Navi may very well be some sort of professional version too, but we have no details on that.
Posted on Reply
#36
xkm1948
yakk, post: 4115337, member: 158293"
What does Raja have to do with drivers?! AMD's best driver and 3D graphics developer tools lead developer dates back to the ATI days, when he left AMD after the merge their drivers imploded. I believe when he came back was when AMD started their big yearly releases, much quicker updates and hugely better developer relations through Sony & Microsoft.

Makes me wonder if he left again or the Navi launch was way too rushed.
A lot of the original ATi talents have departed a long time ago. Even the Polaris and Vega uArc are designed based in AMD's Shanghai, China branch.

RTG is merely a shadow of what ATi used to be.

https://hexus.net/tech/news/graphics/93941-amds-raja-koduri-design-team-celebrate-vega-10-milestone/
Posted on Reply
#37
medi01
lynx29, post: 4115137, member: 153071"
yep I am very surprised honestly, just hope AMD can hammer out better drivers, because even if they can beat Nvidia next round, if I can't launch any and every game I want with 0 issues... not going to bother. I hope they can pull it off.
I also hope AMD drivers will have better support for GTX 1070 of yours.
After all, why the heck not.

efikkan, post: 4115214, member: 150226"
There is an elephant in the room; Nvidia is expected to launch their 7nm Turing successor sometime in 2020, and if AMD finally launches a "RTX 2080 competitor" in 2020, then it's going to be too little too late once again.

AMD need to catch up in the GPU market, and not by waiting and hoping for the competition to "screw up".
So far, Nvidia has been going next gen 70 ~= previous gen ~=80 at nearly the same price.
Perhaps they'll go cheaper, since AMD is present there, we'll see.
Regardless, it means that AMD will still have products for sizeable chunk of the market, bar very top (which is a dubious investment for them at this point anyhow) in the worst case scenario.
Heck, actual expectations are for 7nm EUV GPUs to go well into 2080+ area.

Keep in mind Navi has was a major step forward for AMD, both perf/watt and perf/mm2 wise.

Last but not least, actual desktop market share is 2 nvidia cards vs 1 AMD card and not what you see on steam (as seen in the recent report by TPU).


We might witness lovely "can't continue to sell overpriced shit" hangover by NVidia, with The Leather Man torn between ceding market share, or profits or both.


And as an icing on a cake, it will be AMD dictating how RT development will go.
Posted on Reply
#38
Th3pwn3r
Aquinus, post: 4115323, member: 102461"
You mean you're going to ignore real issues that cropped up early with founder edition 2080 Tis? I've had a 7900 GT fail on me back in the day.
You're not new to computers but if you haven't encountered bad batches then you're still green. I once went through 3 doa mobos from Tiger Direct before saying screw it and getting a different type. I never ignores anything . AMD and Nvidia have both had plenty of issues ESPECIALLY upon launch for early adopters. It happens with all sorts of things and in time bugs get worked out. If you don't like AMD or Nvidia that's fine but bias does nothing for us. I'll keep buying whatever gives the best performance for my high end builds and whatever offers best performance per dollar for budget builds . I'm sure you can figure out what I buy, BOTH Nvidia and AMD. Stick with your AMD if it makes you happy
Posted on Reply
#39
efikkan
medi01, post: 4115349, member: 158537"
So far, Nvidia has been going next gen 70 ~= previous gen ~=80 at nearly the same price.
Often yes, it kind of bumps the tiers one step down. One exception to that was the RTX 2060, which was a large improvement over GTX 1060.

medi01, post: 4115349, member: 158537"
Heck, actual expectations are for 7nm EUV GPUs to go well into 2080+ area.
You used the right wording there; actual expectations. Actual expectations for Polars, Vega and Navi were all over the top. Just a few months ago, a couple of the YouTube optinionators predicted Nvidia would be in big trouble because of Navi… :rolleyes:

medi01, post: 4115349, member: 158537"
Keep in mind Navi has was a major step forward for AMD, both perf/watt and perf/mm2 wise.
Mostly due to the node shrink and keeping clocks low.
AMD have already spent this node shrink, while Nvidia still have it "in the bank". And generally speaking, more efficient architectures only get more advantageous from node shrinks.

medi01, post: 4115349, member: 158537"
Regardless, it means that AMD will still have products for sizeable chunk of the market, bar very top (which is a dubious investment for them at this point anyhow) in the worst case scenario.
<snip>
Last but not least, actual desktop market share is 2 nvidia cards vs 1 AMD card and not what you see on steam (as seen in the recent report by TPU).
Only if you include APUs and computers in general. In the Steam survey you can see the market share among gamers is 15% (including APUs). It gets worse if you look at discreet graphics cards, and even moreso if you look at segment by segment of the market. If you compare GTX 1060 vs. RX 480 + RX 580, you see something like 7-10x favor of Nvidia. So in essence, AMD is only selling volumes in the low-end, and barely participating in the mid-range.
Posted on Reply
#40
Turmania
I hate to be the one that spoils the party but please sort out your glitches and bugs before you start shipping them.
Posted on Reply
#41
Mephis
medi01, post: 4115349, member: 158537"
And as an icing on a cake, it will be AMD dictating how RT development will go.
I love this comment.

Of course your reasoning is that because AMD is in both the next XBox and PS5 they will dictate RT. Except that they were in there last round and it hasn't helped them at all. Microsoft will dictate RT, and they already have with DirectX Ray Tracing (DXR). RTX is already compatible with it (and Vulkan's version as well) and what ever form of RT hardware AMD uses will have to be compatible with it as well. It will all come down to the design of the hardware and drivers, and at this point there is no reason to believe that AMD will have any advantage.
Posted on Reply
#42
GoldenX
Turmania, post: 4115393, member: 182201"
I hate to be the one that spoils the party but please sort out your glitches and bugs before you start shipping them.
Like having to disable HT, getting degraded SATA ports, or just plain overheating?
Posted on Reply
#43
Aquinus
Resident Wat-man
If only AMD would produce a 3840 shader, 240 TMU, and 96 ROP Navi part. You know it would raise eyebrows.
Posted on Reply
#44
deu
lynx29, post: 4115151, member: 153071"
my nvidia and intel system has given me 0 issues and I own over 1000 games... /shrug AMD seems to be crashing on lots of games according to many Navi owners and gamersnexus review.
I baffles me that you have never had problems with nvidia drivers: you could be the first (I have been riding intel and nvidia for about 10 years), and I have had plenty of issues with nvidia (none with intel) But hey good for you, just know that ones emperical selfperformed biased survey to one self is seldom a truely representative scenario. :)
Posted on Reply
#45
Particle
1d10t, post: 4115205, member: 110464"
Playing victim card I presume. So what your take on that news, did news outlet just fabricated it or high end RTX user are mostly repugnant? :rolleyes:
Same goes here, I'm always had Crossfire since X850 XT master-slave era and have given me 0 issues. Are these sound plausible?
There always be a problem on both sides, whether you choose to hyperbolize minor glitch or you just pretend there's no elephant in the room. You know, like 95W TDP and 50Mhz lesser boost :rolleyes:
Luck of the draw. Bad cards do happen.

AMD/ATI cards I've had that died or quit working properly:
Radeon 9590 (dead)
Radeon X800 (dead)
Radeon X1900 XT (memory failed, visual corruption)
Radeon 5950 (UVD unit failed, system crashes)
Radeon Vega 64 (unstable, system crashes)

AMD/ATI cards I've had that work fine:
Radeon AIW 9700
Radeon 2900 Pro
Radeon 3870
Radeon 4850
Radeon 5950 (replacement)
Radeon 6970
Radeon 270
Radeon 390
Radeon VII

I run my cards at stock.
Posted on Reply
#46
lynx29
deu, post: 4115458, member: 164351"
I baffles me that you have never had problems with nvidia drivers: you could be the first (I have been riding intel and nvidia for about 10 years), and I have had plenty of issues with nvidia (none with intel) But hey good for you, just know that ones emperical selfperformed biased survey to one self is seldom a truely representative scenario. :)
I do clean installs of Win 10 every 6 months, only takes me 30 mins on NVME drive and 1 gig fiber optic net. thats only time I do nvidia drivers as well, and i never use geforce experience, custom install only. yep never had a single issue always smooth as butter for me.

Xuper, post: 4115249, member: 83814"
LOL Then Why are you bothering with AMD ? Just Forget AMD and Stay with your beloved Nvidia.Period.You really don't need it.
because if AMD can offer me the stability which I suspect it will in time, then when I upgrade for performance boost which I do every few years... then AMD might be an option then, have to wait and see when the time comes. if that time was now the answer would be no. but hopefully not in future. basic logic, sorry you don't understand it.

Aquinus, post: 4115220, member: 102461"
Tell that to a co-worker of mine where his replacement 2080 Ti just failed, so that's two dead 2080 Tis. Just because you haven't had issues doesn't mean others haven't.
never experienced this latest gen, so the data set I am using is solely based on previous gens. again basic logic, I can't comment on data sets I have not experienced.

1d10t, post: 4115205, member: 110464"
Playing victim card I presume. So what your take on that news, did news outlet just fabricated it or high end RTX user are mostly repugnant? :rolleyes:
Same goes here, I'm always had Crossfire since X850 XT master-slave era and have given me 0 issues. Are these sound plausible?
There always be a problem on both sides, whether you choose to hyperbolize minor glitch or you just pretend there's no elephant in the room. You know, like 95W TDP and 50Mhz lesser boost :rolleyes:
from what i understand it was only 1-3% of all users who got bad cards, we don't really have any official data on how many RTX users got screwed over. also never had any experience with the RTX cards so again out of my data set... sorry you don't understand basic logic. :/
Posted on Reply
#47
Th3pwn3r
lynx29, post: 4115475, member: 153071"
I do clean installs of Win 10 every 6 months, only takes me 30 mins on NVME drive and 1 gig fiber optic net. thats only time I do nvidia drivers as well, and i never use geforce experience, custom install only. yep never had a single issue always smooth as butter for me.



because if AMD can offer me the stability which I suspect it will in time, then when I upgrade for performance boost which I do every few years... then AMD might be an option then, have to wait and see when the time comes. if that time was now the answer would be no. but hopefully not in future. basic logic, sorry you don't understand it.



never experienced this latest gen, so the data set I am using is solely based on previous gens. again basic logic, I can't comment on data sets I have not experienced.



from what i understand it was only 1-3% of all users who got bad cards, we don't really have any official data on how many RTX users got screwed over. also never had any experience with the RTX cards so again out of my data set... sorry you don't understand basic logic. :/
Great for you but on a sample size of one it doesn't mean much. Green and red have issues in some instances and I don't care how much you pray to tech Jesus to prevent such issues from arising.
Posted on Reply
#48
bug
Th3pwn3r, post: 4115482, member: 74037"
Great for you but on a sample size of one it doesn't mean much. Green and red have issues in some instances and I don't care how much you pray to tech Jesus to prevent such issues from arising.
Well, yeah. Each driver (from whatever manufacturer) comes with a list of known issues. If you happen to need one of those particular use cases, then it sucks for you.
But I have also been problem free for like a decade in the green camp. I used to game a lot (not AAA titles on release, that may be significant) yet my experience has been top-notch.
Posted on Reply
#49
lynx29
Th3pwn3r, post: 4115482, member: 74037"
Great for you but on a sample size of one it doesn't mean much. Green and red have issues in some instances and I don't care how much you pray to tech Jesus to prevent such issues from arising.
not a sample siz e of one... sample size of about 15 different gpu's over two decades, my old AMD AGP's gpu's were rock solid though.
Posted on Reply
#50
Anymal
bug, post: 4115296, member: 157434"
It's part of how devious Nvidia really is :D
Well, as ancient envy god will do.
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